DIY DC power cables

[Nenon]

Has anybody tried the VH Audio V-Quad Cu21/Cu24 cable? I wonder how it compares with the Canare Star Quad cable suggested here for a DC cable? It looks like a good alternative. Much more expensive, but I don't need more than a foot.

[Nenon]

If you have a chance to try the Mundorf Silver/Gold 15.5 AWG in teflon, I highly recommend it. It's thick and expensive but works really well on short DC cables (0.5m or less). I would not recommend it for longer cables. Star Quad geometry would probably work better on longer cables. 

https://www.partsconnexion.com/MUNDORF-72180.html

 

Twist the two wires together, apply JSSG360 shielding, and you would be up for a treat. I've used it with GX16-2 pin connectors and the Jaeger connectors on the upgraded SR7. Not sure if it would be easy to use on the Oyaide DC barrel plug, but I can try if someone really likes to know. Maybe you can get Ghent to do it for you if you can't. It takes longer time to break in, but once it does it sounds really good in my system. Better then the Neotech 7N, VHAudio StarQuad, etc... 

[Nenon]

6 minutes ago, elan120 said:

Have you tried Neotech 16AWG solid core silver in twisted pair with JSSG360 configuration?  Wonder if Mundorf is better still?

 

I compared with the 16 AWG solid core copper Neotech. Haven’t been able to find 16 AWG solid core silver. Where can you buy that wire from?

[Nenon]

@elan120 - sorry I corrected my message shortly after posting. Please take a look. It was the Neotech 7N copper I compared with. I haven't ran across Neotech 16AWG silver wire.

[Nenon]

On 7/23/2019 at 11:40 AM, Nenon said:

If you have a chance to try the Mundorf Silver/Gold 15.5 AWG in teflon, I highly recommend it.

 

I still stand behind this. This Mundorf silver/gold is still my reference cable. A few people were going to try it, but I never heard back. I wonder if:

a. they are so happy listening to music with these cables that don't have time to come back and post; or

b. they are mad at me for the advice I gave them :); or

c. they just never tried it.

 

You can read about my recent experience in this post:

On 11/4/2019 at 4:55 PM, Nenon said:

 

Not a Statement owner, but I have a highly tweaked server with the same power supply concept (and actually very similar LPS than the Statement, arguably a slightly upgraded version in my system). The important part is that just like on the Statement I have the regulators close to motherboard and everything else in a different chassis connected with DIY umbilical cords. My umbilical cords were 10'' solid Neotech 7N pure copper 16 AWG wire with triple JSSG360 shielding. They have been running for months...

 

I had about 30 inches of 15.5AWG Mundorf silver/gold left from another project I completed over the weekend for a friend. Decided to do a 2-pin umbilical DC cord with it. Unplugged the Neotech copper umbilical cord, plugged the Mundorf silver/gold and I was surprised to hear such level of improvement. I knew that the cable from the regulators to the motherboard made a difference, but I did not expect the cables before the regulators to make such a difference.

 

So, yes, I fully believe that the upgraded umbilicals take the Statement to the next level. It would be even bigger upgrade on the Statement if you upgrade the internal wiring. But that would surely void the warranty. But hey, people do a lot of crazy things for that last level of refinement. Just saying... 

 

[Nenon]

1 minute ago, tims said:

Hi Nenon

Did you buy the Mundorf wire from parts-connexion or another site?

Thanks

 

Yes, parts-connexion. 

[Nenon]

1 hour ago, ken6217 said:

Am I supposed to remove or leave on the plastic piece that is on the barrel of the connector?

 

They have a vibration damping function as well. So, like @MikeyFresh said, leave them unless you need the connector to be longer for some reason. 

[Nenon]

21 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Hi Richard,

my priority is quite different than yours:

 

#1 geometry in order: star quad, twisted pair, zip cord

#2 insulation material ie the dielectric. Teflon the best, polypropylene, silicone rubber, worst is PVC

#3 gauge

#3 metal type and purity

 

Spend your money on the higher up on the list. In other words don't bother with silver or "6nines" until you already have teflon star quad.

 

John S.

 

Hmmm, my priority is definitely different than that. At this point, I've received feedback from over 20 people who have done DC cables with the 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver/gold wire, and... with or without shielding... regardless of the geometry they used (some people twisted the wires, others just ran them parallel)... they sounded a lot better than anything else mentioned here. Significantly better, actually. In a good resolving system, replacing the DC cable with a Mundorf silver/gold cable could be as noticeable as replacing a component. The trick is to keep the cables short - 1-2 feet, no more than 3'. 

I am not trying to promote a product but just to spread some more awareness of this amazing wire. I've published a DIY recipe already, and anyone who can solder two wires can make them. Yes, the wire is expensive, but if you have a good audio system, it is totally worth it. 

[Nenon]

7 hours ago, richard_crl032 said:

I heard good things about this mundorf ag/au wire for dc cable locally also but mentioned twisted, straight up, with jssg360 etc. variants are unknown to me and surely that they also made differences for those who can hear "big" difference in the 1st place.

 

My point was that no matter what geometry you use with this wire (i.e. twisted or parallel wires), a cable with the 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver/gold wire sounds better than any other DC cable discussed here. At least to my years and in my system, but also to 20+ other people in their systems. 

 

Sure, the geometry and shielding makes a difference too. I did not say it did not. In fact, one of my first tests was with two identical cables but different shielding, one with JSSG360 and one without, connected to my cable modem. And yes, I could absolutely hear a difference. The fact that I could hear a difference of the shielding on a DC cable to my cable modem was quite shocking and an eye opener. 

 

I have tried both, twisted pair and parallel wires. My preference at the moment is to have the wires parallel, with the wires inserted inside an unbleached natural cotton sleeve. As for shielding, there are places where I like JSSG360 and places where I don't. However, as a starting point for people who want to try making this cable, I would recommend to do a twisted pair and JSSG360 shielding. Can't go wrong that way... 

 

8 hours ago, richard_crl032 said:

Not a believer of wishful owners that a single cable as a minute part of one's system is as good as replacing a component at least generally and not a worse matching component .. else a joke to our hobby and advanced technologies to not needing the usd430 uptone lps1.2 and just add mundorf au/ag to my 1st level zerozone lps

Obviously some common sense should be applied when you read my posts, and it would be best if you can see from my point of view. I have a very resolving system and multiple very expensive power supplies. The more improvements I make to my system the more resolving it becomes, and the easier it is to hear small changes. If we go back in time two or three years, replacing my DAC had less of an impact than replacing the DC cable (e.g. feeding the JCAT XE USB card on my server) today. 

I am not suggesting that everyone would hear a difference between DC cables in any system. Most people won't, but those with very resolving systems would. Those with zerozone LPS may not hear very big difference with DC cables. And of course it would not be a good idea to spend more money on DC cables than the LPS. Upgrade the LPS first, and if you can hear clear differences between the Gotham, Neotech, and other DC cables mentioned here, maybe it's time to try a cable with the Mundorf silver/gold wire. 

[Nenon]

1 hour ago, richard_crl032 said:

Hi Neon,

 

Thanks for the sharing on the mundorf au/ag dc cable variants if one wish to diy .. perhaps later but still no confidence to do it well or needed as yet.

 

Sorry for not being clear .. the zerozone lps 7.5v is powering the uptone lps1.2 and the dc cable is to replace the stock awg16 of uptone for 12v  ..  will share if indeed any difference upon receipt of Ghent's gotham from stock terminated one end with Oyaide 2.5mm dc connector for my Bel Canto.

 

Not sure what lps meets your requirement of a discerning lps but uptone lps1.2 ok ?  Btw, zerozone is based on below just in case and hope these amb guys knows what they are doing then:

 

https://www.amb.org/audio/sigma22/

 

Meanwhile, indeed it irks me to see statements by cables owners who believe their latest cable remotely equals to change to better equipment .. regardless their passion and often in hardball manners.

 

You may also want to share your system setup for us to understand your lps, sources dac, speakers/headphone etc. and where the mundorf ag/au dc cable is used to understand the mentioned high resolution needed to discern the big improvement.

 

Cheers 

 

Richard

 

 

@richard_crl032 - With all good feelings and nothing negative, let me say that I really wish you get to the point where replacing a DC cable is as enjoyable as replacing a component. It's much more fun compared to the state of

1 hour ago, richard_crl032 said:

Meanwhile, indeed it irks me to see statements by cables owners who believe their latest cable remotely equals to change to better equipment .. regardless their passion and often in hardball manners.

 

I can probably dig out some comments I've made years ago to people who claimed how big of a difference cables made in their system. It was really pissing me off to be honest. I could not hear differences between cables in my system and their comments were really annoying to me! And now I am one of those guys...

Same goes about switches and a few other components that look and smell like snake oil from far away until you dive deeper into the subject and start listening on a resolving system. But my intention was not to start a debate. I just wanted to spread awareness for open minded people who can hear the difference and can try making their own DC cables. It is annoying to see a $10,000 cable with materials for $500, and I want to see more people building their own. 

 

1 hour ago, richard_crl032 said:

You may also want to share your system setup for us to understand your lps, sources dac, speakers/headphone etc. and where the mundorf ag/au dc cable is used to understand the mentioned high resolution needed to discern the big improvement.

 

Sure, but it's a little difficult. The only off the shelf components I use is my recently acquired SoundApplication TT-7 power conditioner and my turntable/tonearm/cartridge/minusK stand. Everything else is custom built or DIY. 

 

My server is a DIY version of the Taiko Extreme server with some additions like the JCAT XE card, and with different power supply, chassis, RAM, etc. But it has a lot of similarities. And this is where DC cables make a big difference. My DAC is DIY I have been working on for several years. It's highly tweaked for my system/room/tastes and uses 6 rails of high quality LPS for the digital section and 2 for the analog. It's a NOS DAC with tube-based analog section. Took forever to find the best transformers for I/V conversion and all the other parts that went into that build. It's a one off that would never be seen in production. 

 

Line stage is a custom version of the Don Sach SP14. I just used better chassis and components. 

 

I am bi-amping with four SET monoblocks, some details here:

On 6/9/2020 at 11:29 AM, Nenon said:

1. I completed my tube SET monoblocks a couple of weeks ago. They sound amazing! Even better than they look. The Duelund Cast tinned copper caps are still breaking-in as well as all the Mundorf MTube and MLytic AG capacitors I used but they are 99% there. Add to that, the custom silver wires used throughout, Mundorf silver/gold wire for the power supply, custom transformers, custom chokes, Z-foil resistors, WBT silver connectors, NCF IEC inlets, Grade A Sophia Electric tubes, Grade A Shuguang WE6SN7 PLUS tubes, SR Orange fuses, etc. I used to love my Lundahl output transformers but those beat the shit out of the Lundahls! These monoblocks are something special. They really are a piece of art, and I am very proud of the end result. Sorry for the ugly photo, but that's the best I have at the moment.

 

 

Speakers details:

On 6/9/2020 at 2:45 PM, Nenon said:

I built The Loudspeaker (TL-1) by Troels Gravesen about 18 months ago, and that has been my reference since then. Needless to say, I went overboard with my OCD. They also use Duelund tinned copper caps as well as Jantzen Amber-Z Caps, Path Audio resistors (not a fan of the Duelund resistors), special wire, WBT connectors, top quality 1.5'' thick baltic birch, etc.

They have 18'' woofers. The original design was using DSP and ClassD Hypex plate amps for the 18'' woofers, but I am very sensitive on bass details and definition. After a lot of testing, I settled on passive crossovers and bi-amping. Tried quite a few amplification options, including the Jeff Rowland 625 S2 amps as mentioned in one of my previous posts. But when I heard what those AudioMirror monoblocks did, I could not go back to anything else. That was not a self-intuitive test result. Typically one of the weaknesses of tube amplification is deep base. But I guess 95dB efficient 18'' woofers are a different beast. 

So, here I am, bi-amping with two sets of monoblocks (4 monoblocks total)!!! The question is what am I going to do in the summer months with those heaters... it was nice and cozy in the winter :). 

 

I won't disclose power supplies, because this forum is about Uptone Audio. I am a proud owner of some Uptone products including the LPS-1.2 and etherREGEN. And I have a lot of respect for Alex and John! 

 

Going back to DC cables and the Mundorf silver/gold wire - here is an interesting read:

On 2/16/2020 at 5:49 AM, Blackmorec said:

Well this has been an excellent week for me regarding matters audio, both thanks to this forum. I was introduced to the music and artistry of Anoushka Shankar and I tried a pair of  Mundorf Silver Gold DC cables (NMSGs) very kindly built and supplied by Nenon. 

For the past 30 or more years, an argument has raged between objectivists and subjectivists about the degree to which cables can impact sound quality.  The argument was already hot during the late Analog era, but the advent of digital data streams added more coal to the fire. How can a cable possibly affect a bit stream, especially one that is filtered and retimed downstream of the cable, resulting in a so-called bit-perfect stream arriving at the DAC? Well unfortunately I don’t have that particular answer and all I have is yet more anecdotal evidence that cables do indeed have an effect of SQ. Objectivists may claim that confirmation bias is responsible and I will admit to being positively disposed to these NMSG cables. So if you think that conformation bias is what’s responsible for what I hear, that’s fine by me, but for those who’ve proven for themselves that cables make a difference, read on. 

Nenon has already described in detail how his DC cables are built, which are essentially a JSSG360 screened twisted pair of Mundorf Silver Gold wires with Oyaide plugs to order.  I have already described my system, but for completeness, it comprises a highly optimised network based on a dedicated 500Mbps 5GHz wi-fi band,  Sean Jacob’s DC3s LPSs and Synergistic Research Atmosphere X ethernet cables throughout, feeding an Innuos Statement and Devialet 440 Expert Pro CI DAC and amps. The network is essentially ethernet cables with wi-fi isolation between the dedicated router and hi-fi room. 

My system employs 4 DC3 LPSs, so 4 DC cables....DC3 to Modem and Router are Sean Jacob’s extremely competent twisted pair with ferrite filter while the DC3 to TPLink RE650 wi-fi receiver/ethernet and DC3 to AQVox SE were recently upgraded from Sean Jacob’s cables to a pair of Ghent Audio Neotech JSSG360 7N UPOCC cables. In its initial state with 4 SJ cables handling the network’s DC, my system sounded awesome....tick all the hi-fi boxes of extended shimmering tremble and deep mellifluous bass, soundstage based entirely on the recording venue and its ambient clues. There was nothing about the sound I didn’t like. PRaT was SOTA, timing was exquisite, detail sounded ‘complete’, clarity and purity were reference level and listener involvement was of the highest order.  In other words there were no sonic problems to solve and the music was entirely thrilling or moving, depending on genre. Initially I also had a rather competent analog front end, but this digital system eventually trounced the analog set-up so thoroughly that it got traded, no longer worth the fuss and bother of playing LPs. 

As I discuss these new DC cables, the first very valid question must be of course; ‘how much can 2 DC cables powering upstream network components actually affect sound quality?” Intuitively I and probably most of you would likely believe “not much”, but that is absolutely not my experience. In fact, “a great deal” is far closer to what I hear.  Why?  No idea, other than the fact that the digital stream is in fact modulated DC so any DC characteristics that do contribute to sound quality will likely make it through the stream, along with the timed bits. 

So let’s discuss the NMSGs. 

The cables are solid core, beautifully easy to form and hold their shape 100%. There is no springiness at all so its just a matter of smoothly bending them to fit the exact installation requirements, curving smoothly around other cables and orientating the plugs perfectly, with no strain. LIke all cables, I have noticed some running-in anomalies.  I normally listen to my system at a volume setting of -14.5dB. With the new NMSGs I need to increase that to -9dB to achieve the same SPL. Some may say its lower noise and distortion that means I can listen louder, but that’s not what’s happening. I noticed exactly the same thing with the Neotechs...the missing 5dB returning after about 2 weeks of being constantly powered up. I also notice a slight attenuation of dynamics and perhaps slightly less treble shimmer and sparkle....I’m pretty certain that like the Neotechs, this will all return in due course.  

Running-in deficits not withstanding, the NMSGs significantly outperformed the Neotechs although I can’t really report any typical audiophile improvements..... frequency extremes were already extended and rich in timbral detail, soundstage was, as mentioned, as big or small as what is on the recording, there is NO listening room identity, only the recorded venue and music is 3 dimensional, and sounds like its being played by the instruments....so from an Audiophile perspective, not much room for improvement. However there were some major improvements, just that they related entirely to the music rather than to its presentation. 

The first thing you notice is that the music gains in finesse, inner detail, inner warmth, ease and ‘humanness’. Things like mouth and breath sounds became a lot more complex, detailed and real. 

The music is mesmerising, almost hypnotically so, sending shivers of pleasure down your spine. 

The harp in Andreas Vollenweider’s Cosmology sounded lively, vibrant and sparkling, with gorgeous decay, that extends down into complete silence....what makes this all the more amazing is that you  can sense the silence even while other instruments are playing. 

The system seems to have far greater, finely delineated spacial resolution, which makes the soundstage all the more engaging, precise (not etched) and clear, so you can easily follow 2 or more closely related instruments by virtue of their spacial differentiation. This is especially important when sounds differ markedly in amplitude....loud sounds don’t swamp quiet sounds because they are positioned differently in space so don’t interfere. When you increase spacial resolution you hear more low level detail and greater low level detail creates a greater feeling of reality as sounds are revealed that you would normally only hear live. 

The soundstage itself is also affected. Lower noise and greater low level detail give the entire sound stage a presence, a shape, texture, dimensions, even when there are no instruments playing....the size and shape of the recording venue becomes easier to hear...there’s atmosphere and air ....space that has a presence...an ‘eyes closed’ illusion that you’re sitting listening in an entirely different space with no relation whatsoever to your room. 

The music itself has greater bounce and buoyancy.....with more shape and body to the instruments. Instruments positions are very precisely defined in terms of depth and height within the soundstage. Again this makes individual instruments far clearer in the mix, without any analytical characteristics. 

With the NMSG cables, the music has an inner glow and a richness. The music sounds like it is energising the venue....grand piano for example can have a beautiful percussive hammer strike, after which the music blooms out and expands to energise the room, before decaying according to how long the sustain pedal is held. Timbral detail (tone and texture) has always been excellent but with the NMSGs it now remains stable and present down to absolute silence. That soesn’t sound like a big deal, but it again makes things sound more realistic. 

Rhythmic flow often feels like a strong undercurrent, subtle but powerful and irresistible, pulling you along with it. Instruments sound beautifully consolidated, woven together to form a glorious whole. Even when they’re only subtly involved in the mix, their contribution can be powerfully intoxicating. 

Then there’s the music’s ability to generate feelings. We often speak about emotions, but this goes well beyond that as the feelings are unique to the music....the music changes how you feel, and how you feel changes how you hear the music.....amplifying its atmosphere and your reaction to it.  

Take for example Malia’s Celestial Echo. Extremely atmospheric, extended bass with beautiful warmth, tremendous finesse....very pure, very precise, beautifully timed. The bass is round and bounces from note to note.Tomtoms ‘pop’ with dynamic accuracy, even when played quietly. The system creates acoustics that literally play with your mind,  making you feel spaced out, because that’s precisely what you’re hearing and experiencing in your ‘head space’ 

In my system at least, the NMSG cables make the music live and breathe....they bring the music to life.  Songs I wasn’t that fond of suddenly blow my mind with their detail, depth and presence.  The spatial precision results in improved clarity, purity and the fundamental rightness of the sound. The music creates an atmosphere, which generates feelings that you ‘hear the music through’.

For example the music may make you feel spiritual and other worldly, so your feelings reinforce  the music....which is why the listener involvement is so incredibly high....the music and your inner feelings become inextricably linked. I hope I’m explaining this clearly?

Last week I was introduced to  Anoushka Shankar’s album Rise. The music, predominantly Sitar, Voice and Pecussion sounds exotic, eastern and literally soaking in spiritual essence. It is beautifully resonant with super long note decay. The music is highly atmospheric....with some tracks having a rhythmic undertow of riptide proportions . On one track the musician playing tabla percussion sounds like he’s only five or six feet away from the listening chair......its not loud, but includes all the clues to make the music extremely ‘present’ and intimate. The music and instruments suit each other perfectly and the pace of the music and development of the Sitar’s notes are so beautifully coordinated they’ll bring tears of joy at their sheer beauty.

Another album that demonstrates the NMSG’s prowess is Jan Garbarek’s Legend of the 7 Dreams. Voy Contando is spacious, airy, hauntingly beautiful. There’s a simple drum beat.....but what makes it very special is the astounding clarity and complexity. The system weaves magical spells in the air,  with instruments floating in huge spaces that always puts me in mind of northern larch forests and huge open, cold and lonely wilderness. 

 

At some time I’ve got to stop upgrading my system and instead just enjoy fully what I have. I sense that time may be just around the corner. Nenon is kindly making 2 more cables for my Modem and Router. With the right recordings my system can already present the music in a way that rocks or moves every fibre of my being, takes over my consciousness and creates my mood. More than that I don’t need. 

What I find truly amazing about this is that this final touch, the last step that convinces me that I’ve reached the place I want to be sonically, is brought about by 2 DC cables. Even I can sympathize with the objectivists who would poopoo such subjective nonsense....how do 2 DC cables add the atmosphere, the finesse and the beauty that I’m reporting here? 

So 5 days in and 2 more cables on the way we’ll see where this leads...suffice to say, if you’re pursuing audio perfection and you’re able to solder competently, you should make at least one of Nenons NMSG cables. I’m pretty certain you’ll very much like what it brings. 

Finally, to close this initial assessment a big thank you to Nenon who went to a lot of trouble to buy, build and ship these cables for me to try.  They are certainly a surprisingly key component in reaching my own personal sonic nirvana. 

 

 

As much as I like to be engaged in audio discussions, debates about cables are absolutely meaningless to me. And I won't engage in such. I hope I made the point I was trying to convey. Cheers. 

[Nenon]

2 minutes ago, tims said:

In regard to the mundorf wire, how do you think it would suit using it in a diy star quad design? 

The reason I ask is that I seen the wire in the past and it seemed to me at the time to be rigid and not very flexible and I wonder how the insulation (on the wire) would stand up to the tight twisting required for the star quad design?

I think it would work fine.

 

2 minutes ago, tims said:

OT but any ideas if the mundorf wire would make a difference in say a diy RCA cable?

Never tried that to be honest. 

[Nenon]

2 hours ago, HumanMedia said:

Have you tried this @Nenon? 

Yes, I have. I have done a cable for the Farad using 4 x 18AWG wires and a cable using 2 x 15.5AWG connected to pin1 (+) and pin2 (GND). The latter sounded a little bit better to my ears. They were both pretty short, around 1 foot. 

 

2 hours ago, HumanMedia said:

And can you link to your Mundorf DC cable recipe?

 

 

[Nenon]

1 hour ago, Exocer said:

Has anyone tried applying this DIY Helix concept to DC cables?

 

My guess is that the DIY Helix concept has bigger advantage to AC cables. No motivation to try it with DC cables here. But I will try it on a power at some point.