semente Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 1 minute ago, Jud said: I'm pretty sure Vandersteen has never gone in for Kevlar. Carbon fiber or fiber/balsa sandwich, maybe. The reviews is pretty worthless in that respect. The specs page mentions 4.5" midrange unit with patented, low-diffraction magnet, curvilinear polycone, and ferrofluid cooling "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
Jud Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 7 minutes ago, semente said: The reviews is pretty worthless in that respect. The specs page mentions 4.5" midrange unit with patented, low-diffraction magnet, curvilinear polycone, and ferrofluid cooling From Vandersteen's FAQs (http://vandersteen.com/support/faqs): Quote Cone materials that excel in one application may not be appropriate for another. For example, aluminum, Kevlar, and carbon fiber are very good for subwoofer cones and tweeter domes where they remain in the piston mode through the pass band and the inherent nasty peak from their first break-up mode is either way out of the pass band (subwoofer) or above audibility (tweeter). Woofers and midrange cones however, need a neutral material with high internal dampening like treated paper since their first break-up mode will be in or near the pass band. Since it is very difficult to control the initial quality of treated paper cones and to maintain the quality over time, we use proprietary or selected mineral filled polypropylene cones in these critical applications. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
esldude Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 3 hours ago, Ralf11 said: True - somebody post up a plot for a bad speaker... How about a Zu Audio Soul Supreme semente 1 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 I'd heard they sound really good, but... botrytis 1 Link to comment
esldude Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 9 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: I'd heard they sound really good, but... .......they measure really bad. I have not heard any. They don't appear on several fronts to be a good design for the money. Now I built a speaker very similar to those once. A transmission line with a single driver of decent quality also featuring a whizzer cone. Dead center it actually had okay response from 50 hz to 18 khz. A little away from dead center it still made 11 khz pretty well. My cabinet was better braced than Zu's. The driver was light and very efficient (I think it was 96 db for one watt). Full range driver so no crossovers to worry with. It could be enjoyable to listen to actually. It was very dynamic and alive sounding. A good match for the old tube integrated amps which is what I build it for in the first place. Those things had 15-18 wpc or so. That is also the market often praising Zu. Low powered tube amp users. So musical enjoyment such a thing can provide (our golden ears are more forgiving than we think sometimes). It didn't take more than a few seconds to switch on the good rigs and hear how colored those speakers were. Yet that never kept the DIY speakers from being a fun listen either. I think I still have those in the basement somewhere. Maybe I should pull them out and measure them with REW or something. Of course that might interfere with my Klipsch Heresy project for the basement sound system I have in mind. Found a working pair of Heresy speakers for $5 at a yard sale. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
semente Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 7 hours ago, Ralf11 said: I'd heard they sound really good, but... ...but it depends on who's judging? R botrytis 1 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
audiventory Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 12 hours ago, Ralf11 said: I'd heard they sound really good, but... Sound perception have no common points for people. Because we can't access to foreign mind. semente 1 AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac, safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF, Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & WindowsOffline conversion save energy and nature Link to comment
Jud Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 1 hour ago, audiventory said: Sound perception have no common points for people. Because we can't access to foreign mind. I knew you were going to say that. audiventory 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
audiventory Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Looks like, you have access to my minds, Jud Jud 1 AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac, safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF, Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & WindowsOffline conversion save energy and nature Link to comment
semente Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Speaking about decay, I wonder how much it affects resolution / low-level detail retrieval... Here are a few examples: Eminent LFT-16 planar-magnetic tweeter and midrange, cone woofer below Martin Logan Electromotion electrostatic high/mid panel, cone woofer Amphion Argon 3L dome tweeter, cone midwoofer Graham Audio LS5/9 dome tweeter, cone midwoofer Tannoy Kensington horn tweeter (compression driver), cone woofer audiventory 1 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
botrytis Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 You really can't judge a speaker by the printed graphs. Your room, your equipment, YOUR ROOM TREATMENTS all interact. Just go listen and make the decision for yourself. Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
audiventory Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Room change the plots of course. But tend (which have lesser "tail") is remains. AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac, safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF, Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & WindowsOffline conversion save energy and nature Link to comment
Nikhil Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 On 3/27/2017 at 10:35 PM, semente said: Speaking about decay, I wonder how much it affects resolution / low-level detail retrieval... Here are a few examples: Eminent LFT-16 planar-magnetic tweeter and midrange, cone woofer below Martin Logan Electromotion electrostatic high/mid panel, cone woofer Amphion Argon 3L dome tweeter, cone midwoofer Graham Audio LS5/9 dome tweeter, cone midwoofer Tannoy Kensington horn tweeter (compression driver), cone woofer Semente, How do you interpret those graphs? I can't make out the axis parameters. Of the lot I really like those Graham Audio LS5/9 s - very engaging sound. Regards. Custom Win10 Server | Mutec MC-3+ USB | Lampizator Amber | Job INT | ATC SCM20PSL + JL Audio E-Sub e110 Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted April 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 3, 2017 27 minutes ago, Nikhil said: Semente, How do you interpret those graphs? I can't make out the axis parameters. Of the lot I really like those Graham Audio LS5/9 s - very engaging sound. Regards. Frequency along the x axis 20 hz to 20 khz on the right. Time along y axis with 0 at the top and a bit over 200 milliseconds along the bottom. The right hand side indicates decibel level with color. Normally I see those rotated 90 degrees from this orientation, but there is no standard for that. Ideal would be a narrow band of red and yellow very near the top dropping to black quickly. A 2D variation on the info contained in 3 D waterfall plots. Nikhil and semente 2 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
semente Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Nikhil said: Semente, How do you interpret those graphs? I can't make out the axis parameters. Of the lot I really like those Graham Audio LS5/9 s - very engaging sound. Regards. 3 hours ago, esldude said: Frequency along the x axis 20 hz to 20 khz on the right. Time along y axis with 0 at the top and a bit over 200 milliseconds along the bottom. The right hand side indicates decibel level with color. Normally I see those rotated 90 degrees from this orientation, but there is no standard for that. Ideal would be a narrow band of red and yellow very near the top dropping to black quickly. A 2D variation on the info contained in 3 D waterfall plots. Hi Nikhil, @elsdude has anticipated himself and I have nothing to add to his reply, except I think that the graph might have been made clearer if time ("Y" axis) were to extend from bottom to top. R Nikhil 1 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
audiventory Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 3 hours ago, esldude said: A 2D variation on the info contained in 3 D waterfall plots. I like 2-D more for such measurement - more exact for learning. AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac, safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF, Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & WindowsOffline conversion save energy and nature Link to comment
semente Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 On 28 March 2017 at 2:37 AM, botrytis said: You really can't judge a speaker by the printed graphs. Your room, your equipment, YOUR ROOM TREATMENTS all interact. Just go listen and make the decision for yourself. I agree with the underlined bit but if you are implying that a speaker with better decay characteristics with not have better decay in any room I would have to disagree. But, of course, decay isn't everything. Measurements focus on one particular aspect of performance and logically they do not characterise the whole sound of a speaker. But some, like frequency response, have good correlation with listening and a comprehensive set, such as those provided by Sphile and Soundstage, is very informative. Measurements are complementary to listening, they'll help you make a more informed (or learned) decision. R esldude 1 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I guess those graphs show why Magneplanar always tells people to avoid cone woofers to get bass.... Link to comment
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