Reference 2 Channel Speaker Recommendations

[bunno77]

Haven't read this post for quite a while.
Looks like you have some excellent gear and put together a great system. 
How are you finding it, is it happy days? I hope you are playing music as long and as loud as you like.

[bunno77]

@Johnseye

[Johnseye]

On 5/13/2017 at 10:23 AM, bunno77 said:

Haven't read this post for quite a while.
Looks like you have some excellent gear and put together a great system. 
How are you finding it, is it happy days? I hope you are playing music as long and as loud as you like.

 

Hey there bunno, I have been enjoying it.  My two channel listening is at a completely new level now.  I've been making a lot of small tweaks over the past month or so.  First was with the 2.1.  Because I was able to localize the sub I had the dealer over to see what we could do to blend it in.  That was actually easy.  We found it was better in a different location of the room to start.  Once that was done it really comes down to adjusting the volume separately from the pre.  This is unfortunate because having to do that when I switch between surround and 2 channel listening is a pita.  I really need a pre that will dynamically adjust the volume of the sub.  So, even through I can listen in 2.1 it's still not where I want it.

 

The other tweaking has been with the digital chain.  This has allowed me to get even more of what excited me about the Personas.  I built a new low powered server.  With no fans and a low profile it's allowed me to move it with all my other 2 channel equipment.  With that I've been running my sMS-200 in bridge mode and comparing it with the microRendu.  So if you read most of the thread you know I was targeting a specific sound signature that was open, revealing, detailed, dimensional and clean with low noise and distortion.  I was having some trouble with the sMS-200 after it's latest update so I put a lot of time in with the mR.  I thought maybe the subtly smoother, more veiled sound helped balance what I had been doing.  I was wrong.  Once I stopped using HQ Player I could go back to the sMS-200 and wow, all that I had been doing towards that sound signature came back and more.  I'm once more surprised when listening to music as little things will pop out instead of being flat.

 

Most recently, over the weekend, I pulled out my media converters and put a cleaner iFi power supply on my switch.  I'm thinking this could be a winner, but need to do some side by side comparisons.  I have a Paul Hynes SR7 on order to power my server and sMS-200.  Once I get that I'll put my LPS-1 on the switch.  I'm also considering modifying the sMS-200 with the new SOtM clocks which would include modifying the switch and adding a txusb.  That effort would be about $1500.

 

With regards to the Personas, I couldn't be happier.  I also picked up the Persona center, which while expensive, matches timbre perfectly as would be expected.  These speakers are nothing short of amazing.  The 3F's are a great deal from a cost perspective.  There's a lot of speaker in that model.  I think they priced them aggressively to get people into their product line.  The size and cost of the center are both high, so that likely provides some price balance as it's their only center.  I don't think the cost scales incrementally with the 5F and 7F, and can only dream about the 9H.  

[Ralf11]

John, of all the other speakers you reviewed, which one would you have gotten if the 3F's did not exist?

 

Also, was there anything more expensive you'd get if the 3F's were more than $10k per pair?

[bunno77]

Hi @Johnseye

Very happy to hear all of your progress.

I am a little biased towards 2.0, 2.1, 2.2 for music and movies/tv but I understand the lack of convenience.

I too have been blown away by what an external PSU can do and I am sure the SR7 will be great.

 

I previously worked as a retailer for Paradigm and had the guys from Canada come so we could pick their brains. Personally I love all their speakers provided they are matched with the right amps. I had a quick listen to the Persona bookshelves and it seem like they still have the same sonic signature/voicing as all Paradigms.

Can you have extended music listening sessions without fatigue? With my Halcro I can hear things in recordings that were masked previously like the wind from a breath on a microphone, though I hear some of those too on the McIntosh but it's not the same. I also notice the recording studio/room more with the Halcro. While this is a good trait I still find the Mac to be my preference if I am listening for hours and hours at a time.

 

The uR I bought has been sitting in a box while I have been living overseas but that is coming to an end and I will soon be playing around with REW, HQ player and Roon etc too so I am very excited for that as well as integrating my sub into the mix with  high pass filters and without. It is all very exciting for me to play around with when I get home.

 

That Persona centre will surely suit anyone for life so that is a great purchase. Can I ask what your surround system is made up of?

Anyways great to hear your progress and would love to see some pictures posted here if you feel inclined.

 

Dan 

[Johnseye]

On 5/15/2017 at 5:00 PM, Ralf11 said:

John, of all the other speakers you reviewed, which one would you have gotten if the 3F's did not exist?

 

Also, was there anything more expensive you'd get if the 3F's were more than $10k per pair?

 

I liked the Maggie 3.7i's but just don't have the space.  I think they're a great value.  I think the next runner up was the Focal Sopra followed by Legacy Focus.  That's probably what I would have chosen had I not heard the 3Fs'.  I think the 3Fs are probably worth it up to the $15k per pair range.

 

I didn't seriously audition much that was over that $15k mark.  I did listen to some Wilsons at Axpona as well as some others that were higher.  This was after my purchase and while the listening experience there is very challenging because of the noise, the inability to use your own music as a benchmark and because the other components used are of much higher quality as the vendor tries to show their products off.  I wasn't totally blown away by these other, more expensive speakers and it was likely because of those challenges.

[Johnseye]

2 minutes ago, bunno77 said:

Hi @Johnseye

Very happy to hear all of your progress.

I am a little biased towards 2.0, 2.1, 2.2 for music and movies/tv but I understand the lack of convenience.

I too have been blown away by what an external PSU can do and I am sure the SR7 will be great.

 

I previously worked as a retailer for Paradigm and had the guys from Canada come so we could pick their brains. Personally I love all their speakers provided they are matched with the right amps. I had a quick listen to the Persona bookshelves and it seem like they still have the same sonic signature/voicing as all Paradigms.

Can you have extended music listening sessions without fatigue? With my Halcro I can hear things in recordings that were masked previously like the wind from a breath on a microphone, though I hear some of those too on the McIntosh but it's not the same. I also notice the recording studio/room more with the Halcro. While this is a good trait I still find the Mac to be my preference if I am listening for hours and hours at a time.

 

The uR I bought has been sitting in a box while I have been living overseas but that is coming to an end and I will soon be playing around with REW, HQ player and Roon etc too so I am very excited for that as well as integrating my sub into the mix with  high pass filters and without. It is all very exciting for me to play around with when I get home.

 

That Persona centre will surely suit anyone for life so that is a great purchase. Can I ask what your surround system is made up of?

Anyways great to hear your progress and would love to see some pictures posted here if you feel inclined.

 

Dan 

 

Dan, I will eventually add another sub and likely the JL CR1 crossover, but likely not until next year.  I think this will give me the convenience and balance I'm looking for.

 

As for fatigue while listening to the Personas, no.  I have been playing around with subtleties of the sound through different speaker cables and the mR vs sms-200 and while each of these components will either soften/veil, or open/clarify the sound I haven't experienced fatigue after listening for an extended time.  You might think that with such detail and clarity you would get tired of hearing it, but I don't.  I'm simply shocked sometimes and will pop my head up as I hear something I hadn't heard in a song, or hear an instrument in a more 3 dimensional space.  This to me is more exciting.

 

I like McIntosh and you probably read I tried out one of their lower end amps.  I think I need to step up to one of their higher end models to get what I have liked at a store.  That sound signature also goes well with listening to vinyl to my ear.  While it sounds great, it's more laid back and smooth.

 

My surround system is aged.  The pre is a Marantz 7701.  I really like the Marantz sound and in the entry level world they make very musical equipment.  The amps are Emotiva XPA-5 and XPA-200 for 7 channel surround, plus the sub.  Player is an Oppo BDP-103.  I've been waiting for the new Emotiva surround pre to be released.  I got a look at it at Axpona and man, is that thing big.  I don't have speakers in my ceiling so not sure what I'll get out of Atmos, and I haven't upgraded my projector to 4k yet.  Once more 4k movies are released and the price drops some I'll look to improve that system.

[Ralf11]

Good to have your impressions.

 

Did you listen to the next size/prize larger Personas?

[Johnseye]

19 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Good to have your impressions.

 

Did you listen to the next size/prize larger Personas?

 

I did.  A dealer down the street had them, but would not allow for a home audition.  I had to drive a little bit to find a dealer with the 3Fs that I could bring home.  The difference between the two is negligible, but not apples to apples without both in my home environment.

[Ralf11]

I hear you - I was not allowed to do an in home audition of the 3.7i Maggies, so decided not to buy them.  Months later I saw a used pair from a dealer for $4,000.  That was worth it to me.

 

You would think the dealers would pay attention ot he bricks & mortar crumbling all around them...

 

Anyway, enjoy your 3Fs!

[ctsooner]

Funny as I have a lot of dealers within 20 minutes of my house.  I can get to both Boston and NYC within 2 hours.  The only dealer that constantly offers me in home auditions is Audio Connection in Verona, NJ.  That's about 2.5 hours away, lol.  There are many B&M stores around the country that I personally know who have no problems at all with in homes and that goes for large and expensive gear as long as they get to know your a bit and with a cc on file of course.  

 

I have read and even posted in this thread and it's very interesting.  Based on Johnny's (and some others) preferences, I can easily understand why he had the speakers in his finals that he has.  He's very consistent in the type of sound that he likes as are many other posters.  This shows how we all hear differently.

 

I personally shy away from the speakers you are talking about as I find them way too hot for my ear's regardless of system matching, but none of us are right or wrong.  I'm very familiar with all the speakers lines, being discussed.  I have heard all the Personna's, but am more familiar with the 9H's.  I got to hear them the first stop on their tour and then many other times.  I actually own a smaller pair of Paradigm's that I used in the bedroom and now my daughter has them in college.   They always ran a bit hot, but it was 90% used for TV and the extra excitement worked well with the NAD and Linn amps I have used.

 

You have all talked about Benchmark amps, but has anyone ever listened through the Belles amps?  They are very neutral, especially for the price and are a great mix with the Maggies (Audio Connection sells both and they are a nice match if you like Maggies).  Very stable and built like a tank for the cost.  I have never owned Belles myself, but know many who do and they really love them.  Just another option that doesn't get the press I personally feel they should.  

 

Just adding more gear to go listen to ;).

[rikirk]

I have 1.7i and not enough room to move up with the 3.7i. I was thinking about Vandersteen Treo as a possible alternative and a better match for my Karan Acoustics 180. I listen mostly to classical music in a mid-size room.

 

There is no Vandersteen dealer here in Chicago and I would love some good advice here from someone familiar with both before I pull the trigger.

[Ralf11]

my advice: call Wendell 

 

IIRC, the 3.7i is SMALLER acoustically than the 1.7i

 

Vandie is another great, long-lived, honest speaker brand.  The Treos are really good - only you will be able to decide which you like best (i.e. which one has problems that are of least importance to you - all speakers do have problems).

 

Long ago, in a place far away, it took me 5 months of listening 3-5 hours a night to be sure I wanted to sell my Vandies and get Maggies.

 

Chicago?  I believe there is a CA member there who has done extensive listening tests on speakers and decided to get a 3rd brand...

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi @Johnseye - Just catching up on this topic. It can be a really fun part of this hobby to try out all kinds of speakers / components in the pursuit of better sound. 

 

What's the status of your loudspeaker upgrade journey?

[Johnseye]

On 8/16/2017 at 7:48 AM, ctsooner said:

You have all talked about Benchmark amps, but has anyone ever listened through the Belles amps?  They are very neutral, especially for the price and are a great mix with the Maggies (Audio Connection sells both and they are a nice match if you like Maggies).  Very stable and built like a tank for the cost.  I have never owned Belles myself, but know many who do and they really love them.  Just another option that doesn't get the press I personally feel they should.  

 

Just adding more gear to go listen to ;).

 

Thanks for resurrecting this thread.  I've never heard of Belles.  Is it the Aria you're referring to?

 

48 minutes ago, rikirk said:

I have 1.7i and not enough room to move up with the 3.7i. I was thinking about Vandersteen Treo as a possible alternative and a better match for my Karan Acoustics 180. I listen mostly to classical music in a mid-size room.

 

There is no Vandersteen dealer here in Chicago and I would love some good advice here from someone familiar with both before I pull the trigger.

 

I live in the Chicago area.  This thread somewhat chronicles my search for a new pair of speakers.  To hear the Vandersteens I traveled down to Indianapolis.  Mark Maryanovsky, who's a cellist in the Indianapolis Orchestra, owns Tone Audio there.  I spent the better half of a day talking with him and listening to his speakers.  Very nice guy and very helpful.  He's from the more relaxed and smooth camp as clear and precise.  He also carries Dali which is another on my audition list.

 

If you have any questions let me know.

 

25 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Chicago?  I believe there is a CA member there who has done extensive listening tests on speakers and decided to get a 3rd brand...

 

 

That'd be me.

 

24 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi @Johnseye - Just catching up on this topic. It can be a really fun part of this hobby to try out all kinds of speakers / components in the pursuit of better sound. 

 

What's the status of your loudspeaker upgrade journey?

 

Tons of fun Chris.  In the end I bought the Paradigm Persona 3F along with the Persona center.  I use one pair of speakers for both surround and two channel, swapping speaker cables to go between systems.  They're amazingly precise, clear and dimensional.  I've never once experienced fatigue, but I love to be engaged in the sound, not have it in the background.  If you have any questions about the Personas or my search let me know.

 

It's interesting timing that this thread got resurrected because I just went to my local audio store today and picked up a Rogue Audio RP-5 preamp and some Nordost Blue Heaven cables to audition.  I moved my new VPI turntable and need a slightly longer pair of interconnects.  One thing led to another and I'm checking out pre's.  I've wanted to see how a tube pre would influence my digital audio for a while.  I've been running my turntable through the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 which sounds great...but is there something better?  The fun part of the hobby.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 I've been running my turntable through the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 which sounds great...but is there something better?  The fun part of the hobby.

 

Ah yes, fun times. Thanks for the update. The Audio Alchemy stuff is fantastic. Peter is one of the best people in all of HiFi.

[Ralf11]

John, I didn't recall if you'd said publically you were from Chicago, so wanted to not breach any privacy.

 

Best

[rikirk]

Thank you both. I guess I will bring my amp there for an audition.

[Johnseye]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Ah yes, fun times. Thanks for the update. The Audio Alchemy stuff is fantastic. Peter is one of the best people in all of HiFi.

 

He is an incredibly nice guy. It's a shame he's retiring. I guess resurrecting AA and selling it off to Elac was his swan song.

 

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

John, I didn't recall if you'd said publically you were from Chicago, so wanted to not breach any privacy.

 

Best

 

I appreciate the thoughtfulness. 

 

 

Night one with the Rogue preamp and what I had been hoping for wasn't to be. First the lack of XLR on the loaner didn't allow for me to use my Benchmark. I thought I had a work around with an RCA adapter but the diameter was off. So I had to use my Emotiva. It's incredible how much noise I heard when connecting the Rogue to the Emotiva.

 

First I listened to some vinyl which sounded good when using my Simaudio phono pre to the Rogue. Going direct to the Rogue phono pre was not good by comparison. It's a longer RCA run so that likely was a factor. A back and forth comparison between the Rogue and the DDP-1 revealed how small a difference there is between the two. The soundstage was slightly bigger with the Rogue but the clarity and smoothness was about the same which was surprising. I had expected to get a much different sound from a tube pre. Then I ran through the usual suspects digitally from the DDP-1 through the Rogue. Back and forth between the two. Vocals sound a bit more natural with the Rogue but instruments sound identical. 

 

I have the Rogue until Tuesday so much more listening to come. I also need to determine whether I hear any difference with the Nordost cable. I have some DH Labs interconnects and speaker wire coming Saturday. Should be a fun weekend. 

[Ralf11]

tube pre-amps seem to differ in their sound - have you compared an Audio Research with any of these?

 

or a Conrad-Johnson?

 

 

[ctsooner]

What a thread.  Going into a lot of places, lol.  Let's see if I can remember what I wanted to post about

 

Ralf, you mentioned the Swarm subs.....I spoke with Richard Vandersteen about this and the concept is dead on. The thing is that you can do the same thing with any set of four or MORE subs.  What it does basically is smooth everything out.  I sold my Treo's and now own Quatro's (yes fan boy as I love their musical sound. I don't listen critically, unless I'm comparing gear.  It's now just all about the music).  I have a tough room for bass as I'm up in a semi open loft.  I went to the Quatro's since they have the 11 band bass EQ built in.  We were able to tidal in the bass and the speakers are now nearly up agains the wall and in both corners.  It's crazy and not where I'd have ever expected to put speakers, but the soundstage is huge and very real (get's smaller when the recording calls for it).  The thing is, that If I want to move more air and dial in even more, I can buy two more Vandersteen subs.  I may do that in a couple of years if I feel like it, but for now being able to dial it in has been awesome and the wife loves how the room looks now, lol.  That's a win win for me ;).

 

As for Chicago, email me at [email protected] I may be able to help you out.  I used to have a friend who would let folks come listen and then if you like what you hear, head down to Indy and have fun.  As I have posted in the past, the Maggies and Vandy's are both basically point source speakers, but there are some major differences, that only YOU can figure out which you like best and what is best for your equipment.  

 

The Belles Aria is special.  Here is a review (I"m not a big review guy, but many love them. I don't know this reviewer, but it gives you an idea of someone's opinion).  I have not dog in the fight other than knowing Audio Connections in Verona NJ sells them. I've been able to hear them vs other amps in this price range and up to 2k more and it's crazy good.  I can honestly say that a system of new Vandersteen  Treo's, Belles Aria and an Ayre Codex all tied up with Audioquest cabling will CRUSH systems costing tons more (assuming you like the Vandersteen sound).  You can insert other speakers in there and be very very happy.  If I recall the amp costs only 1800 list or something like that.  To me, that's a steal if you are looking at other amps costing more.  There are many really good amps right now.

 

IRT phono stages...I've owned many over the years from Quicksilver to Jadis to Conrad Johnson to Audio Research, but honestly, I just sold my Aesthetix Rhea.  It was by far the best sounding and easiest to use phono I've ever had in the house and I've had some heavy hitting phono stages visiting over the years.  I have to get out of Vinyl, which sucks.  With the MS, I can't just keep getting up and down to change sides.  The AA gear is nice, but like anything else, you own it to yourself to listen to whatever else you can that's in your budget.  Again, lot's of companies are making nice phono stages and it will all depend on what arm/cart you are running.  I personally wanted a balanced one as I run Ayre electronics.  It came down to the Ayre phono and the Aesthetix.  There weren't any single ended that sounded as good as the Rhea did, so that's what I did.  YMMV of course, lol.

 

Hope I haven't hijacked the thread.  Thanks.

 

Pete

 

[Johnseye]

16 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

tube pre-amps seem to differ in their sound - have you compared an Audio Research with any of these?

 

or a Conrad-Johnson?

 

 

 

I'm picking up an AR LS28 tonight.  Last night was a short 2 hour setup and listening session where I posted first impressions in bed.  Very rough first impressions and not very methodical.  This weekend will be much more thorough.  I also ordered a Benchmark DAC3.  I have to know how this thing sounds.  Every review I've read is glowing, comparing it to the Chord DACs.  I was really hoping for a tube pre but if I don't like them any better than the pre's included with the AA or Benchmark DACs then what's the point?  Oh, I'm also going to order a Backert Labs Rhumba 1.2 tube pre on Monday.  I've heard some good things about them.

 

I really wanted to try the Shiit Yggy, Freya and Vidar, but several things are holding me back.  First they only offer a 15 day return period.  Industry standard is 30 days and while I could get it done in 15 they also charge a 5% restocking fee which is $185 for that stuff, and I pay shipping both ways.  So unless I've heard it somewhere before and know what I'm getting into I'm not going to pay a 5% restocking fee.  Second is Chris's findings about the Vidar and third is what I've learned about the noise the Modi puts out.  I know the Yggy is much better than the Modi, but it still leaves a question mark.  Fourth the Yggy doesn't do DSD.  Not a deal breaker but another nail in the coffin.

[ctsooner]

Johnny (and anyone else in the Chicago area), I found a small dealer who has the Vandersteen Treo's for you to stop by and audition.  They are not on the Vandersteen site, but Superior Audio in Chicago has them.  If you can't find them, let me know and I'll get his contact info for you.  Hope this helps you.

[Ralf11]

I didn't know about the restocking fee - maybe you buy thru Amazon?

 

re: what's the point? - the point is look at the pretty glowing tubes (which can be done with a single cheap tube mounted on a piece of wood - maple for example)

 

My LS25 Mk II is my 2nd tube pre, and replaces a Sonic Frontiers Line One - it would be nice to have the convenience of SS so we'll see...

 

anyway, I look forward to your listening impressions 

[Johnseye]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I didn't know about the restocking fee - maybe you buy thru Amazon?

 

re: what's the point? - the point is look at the pretty glowing tubes (which can be done with a single cheap tube mounted on a piece of wood - maple for example)

 

My LS25 Mk II is my 2nd tube pre, and replaces a Sonic Frontiers Line One - it would be nice to have the convenience of SS so we'll see...

 

anyway, I look forward to your listening impressions 

 

Direct from their site 5-15% depending on product. The ones I mentioned are 5%.

 

Isnt it for that smooth and silky tube sound that melts in your ears?