Jump to content
IGNORED

A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


Message added by The Computer Audiophile

Important and useful information about this thread

Posting guidelines

History and index of useful posts

Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

Recommended Posts

A quick question for those of us who might be interested in triple stacking DACs for playing multi-channel DSD in addition DVD-Audio and downloads in multi-channel PCM, Ted started this thread a few years ago

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/14657-first-multi-channel-dsd-playback-solution-with-mytek/

A5QPu4d.jpg

 

So far we could count the number of multi-channel DSD DACs with both hands:

  • EMM Labs DAC 6E
  • EMM Labs DAC8 MkIV
  • exaSound E28
  • exaSound E38
  • Merging Technology Hapi
  • Merging Technology Horus
  • Merging Technology NADAC MC-8
  • MSB Theater Master
  • Mytek trio
  • Oppo UDP-20x

(Most likely I'm still missing something like miniDSP U-DAC 8 and Smyth Research Realiser A16 but let's move on.)

 

Since SOtM already confirmed that multiple clocks with the same frequency could share the same output from sCLK-EX, what if we modify each and every clock of USB input chip that's found inside three identical DACs?

 

And then we've got the software side to take care of as well, Windows 10 RS2 (Creators Update) should have native support for UAC2 even though that might be hit or miss.

 

For the channel mapping, could JRiver Media Center be a good choice with Zones and Room Correction?

 

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Zones

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Room_Correction

 

AOv2QP9.png

Link to comment
50 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Second chain is Motherboard USB 2.0 port> uspcb> ISO REGEN(lps-1 7 volts)> uspcb > OTG adapter >microIDSD.

 

Since that came with male instead of female USB input as shown below, even an OTG adapter didn't seem to affect the signal integrity of ISO REGEN's output very much:

 

iM-04.jpg

 

Was that OTG adapter bundled with microIDSD or is there anything special about it by any chance?

Link to comment

Now I know what IR #2 could be useful for, just wait until it's dropped to $99 again

 

https://camelcamelcamel.com/Lexar-512GB-Portable-SSD-LRWSSD512TBNA/product/B012PSHRY6

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Reviews/Specific.aspx?ArticleId=42196&PageId=1

wwXlNE0.jpg

 

Not exactly easy to find something that's small enough to sit right behind the computer with full-size USB Type B input and 512GB to boot. Pretty much all USB adapters for mSATA / M.2 NGFF etc. should be built for portability, therefore most of them should have either micro USB or USB Type C these days.

 

Maybe that's even bootable and it's gonna be fun to try Windows To Go.

Link to comment

This is the closest thing I could find online, of course we're talking about only a single USPCB between two components instead of "combining" two USB couplers/adapters together

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/ca/reviews/holo-audio-spring-level-3-kitsune-tuned-edition-r2r-dac-review/?page=5#comment-613247

hyIP44Y.jpg

 

Maybe the longevity of USB jacks could be challenged with USPCB? Better provide proper support under IR or else we might regret it later

 

q5mB1CC.jpgK9yr4FG.jpgIv9ZLJe.jpgYiJYAkr.jpgsSmjlM8.jpgfdc3hl8.jpg

Link to comment

http://www.forum-hifi.fr/thread-4505.html

http://dietpi.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1964

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/usb-audio-output-pi-hat/25479

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/allo-usbridge-board/27487

http://www.audiophonics.fr/en/interfaces/allo-usbridge-usb-interface-sparky-emmc-16gb-acrylic-case-p-12073.html

 

Sparky Basic Linux Images

https://github.com/sparkysbc/sparky_linux_images

 

LPS-1 should be fine with 5 W of power when it's gonna consume 5V @ 1A or less, this one looks like a winner for $189

 

https://www.allo.com/marketing/brochures/allo-sparky-brochure.pdf#page=3

Quote

Power: The board uses up to 5 W of power and can be powered from the USB connector, or a separate 3.7 V battery power supply

 

https://www.allo.com/sparky/usbridge.html

Quote

Sparky has 2 independent USB controllers (2 highways), and we connect to the second one. Then we use a new USB IC that recloaks the stream using hi quality NDK Oscillators, and everything is powered by independent LDOs and hi frequency filters. The final noise of the USBridge is lower than the noise of a battery

 

Link to comment

$999 OCXO Audio Grade Router with questionable (at best?) customer service

 

http://ppaproduct.blogspot.com/2015/07/audio-grade-switcher.html

 

Suddenly picking our own router and sending it over to SoTM for an upgrade would be a bargain

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-sms-200-and-microrendu/?page=29#comment-633020

Quote

Paul Pang sells an even better OCXO version with 10x better stability than his TCXO switch and so my attention was drawn there. About this time, I had taken delivery of an "UP-OCC grade" SATA cable for my music SSD that was hand made for me by Chan King Girand Michel, owner of Pachanko Cables based in France and he told me how his new SOtM sCLK-EX "super clock" made his Paul Pang V4 USB card with OCXO clock like a "child's toy."

 

There's also another 10 MHz master clock for $799 but I would stay away from that for obvious reasons

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/22437-paul-pang-audio-v3-usb-card/?page=3#comment-677769

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/26670-paul-pang-musicserverpc-my-experiences/

Link to comment

If the clocks inside your DAC suck so bad while it's still equipped with word clock input, then you could connect that world clock input to SU-1's word clock output.

 

Usually word clock should be good for the multiples of 22.5792MHz and 24.576MHz but a switch would require 25MHz as shown below

 

adjYQTF.jpg

In other words, a switch won't be able to take advantage of SU-1's word clock output since the frequencies are different.

Link to comment

Come on guys, we just need to get four of them together and then we'll save 9,118.1 a piece. What a smokin' deal?

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/lessloss-laminar-streamer

Quote

When the Laminar Streamer hits the streets, it is expected to come in at "under $15,000".

 

That reminded me this portable SD card player that's only €500 while it's launched several years ago. Then it's raised to €880 when I ordered it and that's such a enjoyable package for portable audio

 

http://www.tera-player.com

 

Eventually it went all the way to 10K

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20160821230546/http://tera-player.com:80/

 

Finally it's back to 3K

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20161203054326/http://tera-player.com:80/

 

Seriously, is that clock inside Laminar Streamer actually comparable to MSB Femto 33 / MUTEC REF 10 / NDK DuCULoN or what?

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

It's super interesting to see Roy's link in his previous post

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-83#post-13679993

 

The chief designer of an immensely popular product is actually willing to fly all the way to another continent for an audition, that's gonna be THE ultimate test for an engineer's theories versus a customer's practices IMHO.

 

Regarding BNC clock cables,  his experiences seemed to be quite consistent with the others who purchased a different master clock

 

On 9/17/2017 at 9:14 AM, romaz said:

Lastly, with regards to clock cables, I have explored this to some extent although I have a few other clock cables coming in.  With the Habst cables against a 0.5m Pasternack RG-59 (about $40) and a 0.5m Blue Jeans Cables RG-6 with Canare BNCs ($17), there's no contest, unfortunately.  With these lesser cables, there is an obvious HF glare that is present.  I can get used to it and things can sound pretty good but as soon as I swap in the Habst, the improvement in detail clarity and the disappearance of this glare is very apparent.  If someone is contemplating an inexpensive clock cable, I would suggest the less expensive Blue Jeans Cables over the Pasternack.  Whether this is because RG-6 is better shielded and has less signal attenuation then RG-59, it's hard to say but one seems to sound a little better than the other although the difference is small.  Next week, I have a Black Cat Silver Star 75 coming in.  It is supposed to play in the league of the big boys at a more affordable price point of $250 and so we'll see.

 

BTW, he's still talking about a "plain vanilla" DFI BW171 and I wonder if that custom-built motherboard were coming soon?

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-sms-200-and-microrendu/?page=74&tab=comments#comment-663405

 

 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Well, predictably enough, Charles Hansen does not think any external clock could improve over the internal clock in the QX-5.

 

It cracked me up whenever these claims were popping up while nobody really bothered to back things up with any kinda evidence whatsoever

 

Quote

As far as external clocks go, the internal clock in the QX-5 is equal or better than any external clock on the market - even the $20,000 ones. Adding an external clock input to the QX-5 would actually degrade its performance.

 

They wouldn't even show any kinda numbers / data / measurements etc. but it's just "better" anyways. LOL

 

I don't mean to be disrespectful but sometimes we've gotta be realistic IMHO. Now I'm gonna be the bad guy since I'm spelling it out.

Link to comment

Not really what I think or anyone thinks, it's just a matter of apples-to-apples comparisons. Talk is cheap and that's all.

 

BTW, let's compare SoTM sCLK-OCX10 to one of their best MV336

 

https://www.morion-us.com/morion-inroduces-xtal-clear-ocxo/

Quote

Morion has released Xtal-Clear®, the lowest ADEV, lowest close-in phase noise and ultra-stable 10 MHz OCXO available in the world today! The MV336 has short-term stability (ADEV) of <1E-13 at 1 Sec. and <3E-13 to 100 Sec. Temperature stability is < ±2E-11 from -20 to +70 deg. C and phase noise is better than -92 dBc/Hz @ 0.1 Hz and -120 dBc/Hz @ 1 Hz.


https://www.morion-us.com/quartz_oscillators/790/mv336/

http://www.morion.com.ru/eng/news/open/95/

http://www.morion.com.ru/eng/oscillators/ocxo/

http://www.morion.com.ru/catalog_pdf/31-MV336_REV_9.pdf

http://www.morion.com.ru/catalog_pdf/32-MV336M_REV_5.pdf

https://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/mv336m.pdf

 

Just stealing (MAN, I'm such a petty thief) something from Rajiv that's posted on page 145

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=145&tab=comments#comment-722223

 Typical Phase noise(dBC/Hz)

                                                                                           My

                                       sCLK-OCX10                       Cybershaft    Mutec
     Frequency  Standard  Advanced  Reference       OP-14         Ref 10 (published)
         10Hz  :       -125         -135        -140                   -132.4              ≤ -142
       100Hz  :       -150         -160        -160                   -141.9              ≤ --155
         1KHz  :       -160        -163        -165                                             ≤ --160
       10KHz  :       -165        -165        -165
      100KHz  :      -165        -165        -165
      Noise floor:                                                                                        ≤ -166

 

https://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/mv336.pdf#page=2

                                       Morion MV336
     Frequency         -              LN          ULN  
        0.1Hz  :       <-80          <-85        <-92
           1Hz  :       <-113      <-116        <-120
         10Hz  :       <-143      <-144        <-145
       100Hz  :       <-154      <-156        <-157
         1kHz  :       <-160      <-160        <-160
       10kHz  :       <-160      <-160        <-160
 

Maybe they're putting something even better inside QX-5 Twenty?

Link to comment

Quick question for @romaz since you're receiving your Hugo 2 recently / very soon, did you get a chance to ask SOtM anything about their willingness to modify the clocks of Hugo 2 for loyal customers like you?

 

DAVINA with both USB input and output should be on the horizon, that means we'll be able to capture the upscaled files of M-Scaler and save those 705.6kHz / 768 kHz wave files for offline playback afterwards.

 

In other words, we're still taking advantage of M-Scaler's power while the path should look like:

 

⇒ tX-USBexp+sCLK-EX combo

⇒⇒ tX-USBultra

⇒⇒⇒ Hugo 2

 

Another member (Bamber) was paying for multiple sCLK-EX boards and that's why SOtM was happy to make an exception to the rule

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=109&tab=comments#comment-691317

 

Link to comment

If a clock mod were done by SOtM, obviously they'll figure out the frequencies for their customers.

 

Otherwise, most likely some numbers could be found on the surface of a crystal but it's gotta be checked in person because pictures aren't clear enough

5udyBs4.jpg6DMbZiv.jpg

 

Stuff like USB 2.0 and Ethernet should be pretty much a standard with 24 MHz and 25 MHz respectively

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator_frequencies

 

For those of us who aren't ready to pay for / wait for SR4 or SR7, recently there's something great that just came out and it's good for up to 1A

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LT3045-A-Ultralow-noise-0-8-Vrms-LDO-linear-regulator-0V-15V-1A-Fixed-out-/253165364635

 

Do a search on LT3045 and Dubai since there were so many happy campers, @tapatrick and others already shared their overwhelmingly positive experiences earlier

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30634-the-true-experimental-tweak-thread/?page=97&tab=comments#comment-720390

 

That could even further improve the output of LPS-1 as mentioned below

 

http://www.usaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6915#p6915

 

It's actually a regulator but we could also start with a decent linear PSU (e.g. TeraDak DC-30W) first. Then we could piggyback 2 pieces of LT3045 and get a super clean DC output.

 

Jetway did post the power consumption of each and every motherboard / barebone on their site, just pick anything with DC power inputs and take a quick look. The combined power consumption of a motherboard plus a HDD / SSD are most likely less than 1A and it's only exceeding that number while running the most demanding benchmark software.

 

Let's say we're powering an Intel X25-E with two pieces of LT3045 first, and then two more pieces for the motherboard. All of them could be fed by a single linear PSU with Y cables, we'll still be able to get away with only 1A and the motherboard won't draw more power than LT3045 could handle.

Link to comment
58 minutes ago, romaz said:

SOtM tX-USBhubIN ($350)

 

Based on what Lee has told me, if I had 2 free PCIe slots, I would have gone with 2 tX-USBexp cards, especially since they cost the same.

 

 

Many thanks for posting everything in great detail.

 

Lee should have mentioned that fiber optic would add jitter and that's why SOtM would prefer filtering instead of isolation.

 

Is that why you'd rather forgo the option of Adnaco-S1B even if that were giving you extra PCIe slots plus the advantage of distancing tX-USBexp cards from other components?

 

http://www.adnaco.com/products/s1b/

 

Anyways, it's already a challenge to cram everything on top of Tranquility Base XL UEF so that's really no biggie.

 

BTW, you've gotta take a picture when Rob Watts drops his jaw after listening to your latest and greatest rig.

Link to comment
10 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I liked the Mscaler. Nothing more. :D

 

It would be mighty interesting once we're able to get our hands on Davina

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-556#post-13450235

Quote

Davina is bi-directional on the USB; it can receive and transmit data at the same time.

 

Ideally we could all split the cost of acquiring a single Davina and then send that to a trustworthy member with plenty of Internet bandwidth who doesn't live in a region that's prone to natural disasters etc.

 

Suppose that Davina could be connected to an "ordinary" server while the process of utilizing the Mscaler is easily automated without much interactions except for some scripts to play / record the music, there will be lots of possibilities.

 

Basically a server that will act like VPS (virtual private server) could be our workhorse to be partnered with Davina, or simply install stuff like Reboot Restore Rx on any kinda "plain vanilla" Windows machines

 

http://horizondatasys.com/reboot-restore-rx-freeware/

 

Get Remote Desktop Services and FTP server etc. up and running, then those of us who paid for Davina are allowed to access that machine for a specific amount of time.

 

Alternatively, just write some simple scripts (we should be able to find an expert or two on this site) to scan specific folders for ALAC / FLAC / WAV etc. files that were uploaded by a member, finally Mscaled WAV files (either 705.6 kHz or 768 kHz) should be saved accordingly and they could be downloaded by the same member afterwards.

 

Of course the $64,000 question is whether Mscaler is only able to work in real-time or could that simply accept an entire lossless music file and then split the Mscaled WAV file out as soon as it's done.

 

(BTW, please behave and don't think about stuff like Qobuz and TIDAL etc.)

Link to comment
35 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

Any word on Chord going down the external clock route? 

 

Rob Watts should be so confident about Pulse Array and external clock wouldn't be a necessity.

 

In addition, @romaz also talked about that particular topic and decided not to mod his Hugo 2

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=149&tab=comments#comment-723562

 

Actually we could keep an eye on the upcoming Teac NT-505 and UD-505 with 10 MHz reference clock inputs while both of them do accept 768 kHz via USB

 

https://www.supersonido.es/p/teac-nt-505

https://www.supersonido.es/p/teac-ud-505

 

In other words, we could feed 705.6 kHz / 768 kHz WAV M-scaled files to either DAC from Teac while taking advantage of one of those 10 MHz reference clocks from Cybershaft / MUTEC / SOtM etc.

Link to comment
48 minutes ago, beautiful music said:

Did you know when Teac UD-505 will be Available?

 

They only said that's expected to be available within 2017 but no specific dates yet

 

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1078891.html

Quote

年内の発売を予定しており、価格は未定。

 

Most likely they'll stick with 50 Ω instead of 75 Ω since we could find that on page 9 of UD-503 manual

 

http://www.teac.com/content/downloads/products/935/ud-503_om_efs_va.pdf#page=9

Quote
  • Use a commercially-available BNC coaxial cable (50 Ω) for connection.

 

Consequently, there will be VERY limited choices for decent clock cables unless we're willing to settle for the cheapest ones from Mogami etc.

 

Esoteric 8N-A2000 BNC (Discontinued)
http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/8na2000bnc/indexe.html

 

Shunyata Alpha Clock-50 ($1,000/£1,000)
https://shunyata-uk.com/product/digital-cables/alpha-clock/

http://www.shunyata.com/media/PDFs/2017_Cable_Guide_v2.pdf#page=60

 

Shunyata Sigma Clock-50 ($2,000/£2,000)
https://shunyata-uk.com/product/digital-cables/sigma-clock/

http://www.shunyata.com/media/PDFs/2017_Cable_Guide_v2.pdf#page=72

 

Evolution Acoustics BNC Links ($6,000)
http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/cables/bnc-links/

 

It makes sense to pay for an expensive clock cables if we're able to afford one of those pricey DACs from Esoteric. OTOH, both NT-505 and UD-505 would cost roughly €1,399 so that clock cables might not make that much sense if they're almost as expensive as the DAC itself IMHO.

 

SOtM wouldn't wanna modify any DACs unless we're happy to pay for multiple sCLK-EX boards, that's why it's just way too difficult to find an affordable DAC with 75 Ω external clock input.

 

Esoteric N-05 does have 75 Ω external clock input but it ain't exactly cheap to begin with

 

https://www.musicdirect.com/network-player/Esoteric-N-05-Network-Streamer-and-DAC

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Esoteric-N-05-Network-Audio-player-Japan-made-/352040960914

 

Maybe it's good enough to stick with Chord Hugo 2 or the upcoming 3Qute since their ultra-low output impedance should be great for Omega speakers etc. Other than that, I wonder if there were anyone who might be able to perform sCLK-EX modifications for DACs without asking for a ridiculously high fee?

Link to comment
4 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Question would be if the low power server would choke on HQP.  I wouldn't think so but with only 2GB of memory?

 

We do have that offline upsampling option

 

https://www.chisto.me/news/world/item/97124-offline-upsampling.html

 

CUDA offload didn't just reduce CPU utilization, that actually improved SQ when they're choosing Tesla K20 with both Double-Precision Performance and ECC bits enabled. Other audiophiles in Taiwan actually had 2 GPUs installed instead of only 1

 

http://www.myav.com.tw/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=20475707

http://www.myav.com.tw/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=20478306

 

Recently they also discovered that both Mixbus 4 and Mixbus 32C with CUDA would sound even better than HQPlayer

 

http://www.myav.com.tw/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=20480094

https://sites.fastspring.com/harrisonconsoles/product/mixbus4?coupon=LABORDAY17

https://sites.fastspring.com/harrisonconsoles/product/mixbus32c4?coupon=MB32C-UPDATE

 

They don't support *.DFF and *.DSF so we've gotta create DoPFLAC manually

 

http://harrisonconsoles.com/site/mixbus-info.html

https://sites.fastspring.com/harrisonconsoles/checkout/mixbus4demo

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Summit said:

 

To get the “best SQ” of a Chord blu mk2 and to use its 1M taps you need to have a DAC that has dual BNC in. Someone always need to start for progress to take place.

 

Actually we just need a single coaxial input that's capable of receiving 768 kHz but obviously that ain't available anywhere outside the Chord family yet. So far I could only find one manufacturer that's making a "beast" like that

 

http://www.comtrue-inc.com/index.php/products

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/283278-audio-true-768khz-32-bits-spdif-i2s-dop-dsd-src-asrc.html

 

Basically we just need adapters / cables like this for connecting Blu Mk. 2 to either Hugo 2 or Mojo

 

tfpv8SJ.png

 

Once Davina and another standalone M-scaler are released in the future, we could simply take advantage of 1M taps with USB 2.0 connections that are capable of receiving 768 kHz and therefore plenty of DACs with such USB receivers + DAC chips will provide an input like that. For instance, AKM already made an entire product line that's able to accept 768 kHz

 

http://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/detail/0054/

 

As I pointed out in a previous post, we don't even have to own any products from Chord with M-scaler because offline upsampling could be done with Davina (as well as other standalone products with M-scaler)

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=160&tab=comments#comment-727282

 

That's why we could also enjoy M-scaled WAV files on the go with Hugo 2 and Mojo in addition to iFi Audio micro iDSD, although 400GB microSDXC cards wouldn't be large enough to hold that many huge WAV files.

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...