A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[ElviaCaprice]

Thanks again, Paul.  Will definitely keep your concerns in mind.  I would like to go back at a future time and revisit the build of the JS 360 for DC cables to see if some other layering of materials can achieve a better signal processing.  

 

But I am back to the signal cables/ribbons etc (just can't make up my mind).  I am back to the JS 360 PCIe ribbon, installed.  I want that transparency that it provides, which is no small change over the clothed version.  It's perceived small loss in sound stage I still think is a false enlarged staging due to RFI/EMI contamination in the clothed version, the perceived confusion in difficult passages is due to transparency ( I can hear the detail now).  I am going to try making a compromising version with layers, but still ending with the JS 360 metal braid, which l think is essential in eliminating all outside contamination.  But still try to take into consideration any internal contamination due to reflection.

 

1st layer - pure 100% cotton cloth

2nd layer- 3M AB 5100SHF strips.

Think I will stick the 3M strips to the inside of the 1st metal braid like the PC casing.

then JS 360 in combo with PVC shrink wrap.

 

Any comments would be appreciated at this point.

 

 

[ElviaCaprice]

My experiment with JS 360 for signal cables is over.  This may be signal cable dependent.  Meaning, it all depends on where you are in the stream.  Data only, I don't think suffers from the same issues as a stream in motion.  

 

I found that the PCie ribbon from my NUC mobo to my PCIe 1X lane for my tXUSBexp card to make me suffer greatly in fatigue with the JS 360.  But it was the best transparency I've heard, which is what kept me at it, trying, to make it work.  But to no avail, it was like the timing was out of wack, slow motion leading to fatigue in speed??  

 

So I resulted in going to a triple cotton wrap for now.  I don't have an answer to this issue.  How can I enclose this ribbon from all RF/EMI noise without killing the sound leading to fatigue?   Big open spaced metal enclosure?  Which of course is not practical.   

 

Does this apply to USB or SATA cables?  I notice on taking my PPA SATA chord apart that it is double wrapped with metal braid.  This doesn't seem to lead to the great fatigue as in the PCIe ribbon.  But this only sends data and OS.  Music data is streamed from memory with JRiver.  I'll still need to do some testing with this.  

 

 

 

[ElviaCaprice]

 

Thanks Kyrill, for your input.  I have read your findings a few times over on that forum.  I've ordered the following copper fabric off of ebay and plan to make my own sleeve over some cotton wrap.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/EMF-RFID-RF-Shielding-Copper-Fabric-Roll-42-x-1-Conductive/173229145787?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Graham-Cellu-Cotton-Beauty-Coil-100-Cotton-40ft-Sanex/131346555189?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

[ElviaCaprice]

nevermind

 

[ElviaCaprice]

43 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

You'll notice that everything up the chain to the cable modem is on an LPS, but what the picture does not show is the AC power source. This is the embarrassing bit. For historical reasons I won't go into, my network closet (top picture) is powered by an APC 350VA UPS. In this latest audit of my system, it finally registered on me (duh!) that this UPS must be generating very noisy AC to the HDPlex LPS. Following @JohnSwenson's advice in the isolation transformer thread, I got myself an unfiltered Tripplite power strip (this one can be folded into convenient shapes).

 

Wow - much improved! I can't believe the crud the UPS was putting into the network gear made it across the entire topology. I've only done an evening's worth of listening, but at this point, the gap between network playback and local playback on the SE has shrunk. Not completely disappeared, but definitely smaller.

 

 

 

That Tripplite still has a breaker installed.  Better is this 20A Tripplite that requires hard wiring.  It's what I use.   In fact I wired it directly from my 1KVA Topez direct using 10AWG 3 conductor wire. 

[ElviaCaprice]

50 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Interesting. Do you have personal experience with finding breakers in a power strip to make an SQ difference? I know in the context of my dedicated line, I asked Jim Weil if he had found breaker quality to affect SQ, and he had indicated not enough to worry about.

 

Regarding the strip I have, compared to the effect of replacing a UPS, I feel comfortable that the effect of the breaker in the strip, even if it's there, is minimal. Also, keep in mind that this is not the power feeding my main rig. It's in a different part of the house, on a completely different circuit, and upstream of all the existing isolations. 

 

I would say that this far upstream, heroic optimizations are unnecessary (due to the high cost). Just good, basic hygiene is my goal for the moment. 

 

 

I do not have any direct comparison.  But since you we're referring to JS's previous recommendations, not having any breakers/LED's was also mentioned by him as best power strip for use.

[ElviaCaprice]

Greetings, fellow peeps.  Sitting on the fence post on this one.  Just not visualizing this latency attribution, yet.  As one of the original kNUClehead adapters here? in this thread with my Jetway NUC modified with sCLK-EX as a direct one PC solution feeding my DAC via tXUSBexp pcie card, I'm not inclined to go down this path, for various reasons.  

1.  Format limitations:  JRiver video/hires playback is a need of mine.

2.  Investment in current setup and it's satisfying sound.  Satisfaction

3.  I just don't understand it's benefit, latency.  I can't visualize it's benefit at this moment.  Any optimizations I perform on SW has zero impact on SQ which I attribute to the sCLK-EX integration, NUC low impedance, SR7. 

4.  Have plans for further upgrade outside the server component, added Chord HMS.  I find the server component the least impactful for SQ in the chain, yet it does have an effect.

5.  Best of all, simplicity.  

6.  But mostly, I'm lazy, and have shined to other interests at the moment.

 

Keep up the good work folks.  Come on get me off the fence post.  ?

 

 

 

 

[ElviaCaprice]

2 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

You can use Jriver in Audiolinux lxqt it sounds fantastic and outperforms Roon with PCM at least.

The jump up in quality from Windows to Archlinux is equivalent to going from a standard setup to a sclk-ex one. The better the components the more the improvements become apparent such as the standard motherboard USB output to that of a tx USB- exp with sclk - ex.

Get off that fence

Your claims are a bit over the top which makes me hesitant about this OS.

Any testimonials or folks that have tried this?  Links?  Video playback?  All I could find was this on JRiver.    That site is a mess at Audiolinux. 

My experience with OS change has been minimal SQ change and more often driver issues.   I do not find much SQ benefit even from Windows 10 optimizations other than cleaner functional OS.

[ElviaCaprice]

4 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

Booting the entire OS in RAM is where the real benefit has become apparent with Audiolinux, to my ears at least.

 

It would seem that Audiolinux real benefit is that it provides a SW/Roon solution for Larry, Roy and others to have an OS for an endpoint such as their chosen NUC suggested, headless.  Great cost efficient find/development.  Just doesn't fit my needs.

 

Now, how that would work or be a benefit for my system with JRiver from a single server is where I can't seem to get good sourced information on.  With 4GB of memory, I know I wouldn't be able to run the OS from memory as a single server with JRiver.  Also, converting my system to using my NUC as an endpoint is not an option, due to my need for Hi Res video playback, endpoints don't work.  

 

Everything I've found online about Audiolinux incorporating JRiver Media Center as a single server confirms difficulties (very little info) and many problems which need a lot of coding/tweaking, if even possible.  Has anyone incorporated Audiolinux OS with JRiver media center and had good success with all media playback?  Video via HDMI and audio via DAC?

 

Even on JRiver forum,  they have many issues with incorporating their suggested Linux OS's with JRiver Media Center.  

 

Also I'm skeptical of Linux being superior to stripped down Windows 10 OS.  But I do think running the OS from memory can have it's benefits, Linux or Windows.  It just doesn't work for my media demands.  Server size vs memory needed and trade offs in SQ/costs.

 

This whole notion of latency benefits with a software remind me of the whole JPLAY claims, which I never bought into.  I remain skeptical but open minded.

 

Trying out Audiolinux,

Until shown it can be done painlessly or for that matter at all, I'm not willing to go down this path.  It's not about the $29.  

 

Sincerely,

Comfortable fence sitter enjoying the tunes/video.?

[ElviaCaprice]

3 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

I ran a small test on video with Jriver it seems to work fine with Hi res just like the windows version.

4GB RAM is a problem, the lxqt version has an image size of 3.6 GB you'll need to install Jriver but I suppose a large amount of stuff can be removed.

One thing about Celeron processors is that they will work with larger amounts of RAM than their specs. My motherboard is rated at 8GB max- but works fine with 16GB.

 

Great, thanks for testing.  So I take it you tested on the non headless version, lxqt?  

From the audiolinux website  "From version 1.9.7 you can load the entire system to RAM as an option. For this you need at least 16GB RAM (8 GB for AudioLinux headless). There is the option to save the entire system in "ram mode"

 

I gather that running AL lxqt from a hard drive is not nearly as beneficial as from RAM?  Looks like minimum specs from the website require 16GB for full GUI/video?  But you think I could get by with 8GB?  8GB is doable with a new dim, according to my mobo specs.  4GB sounds like it would be pushing it, especially since JRiver needs over 1GB just for memory loading of tracks.  Also might try 16GB RAM.

 

Not so sure about the loading of JRiver media center to AL.  Guess I'll worry about that bridge if I get there.  

 

So all I would need is a 16 to 32 GB usb key and use Rufus to create a bootable drive from this USB key in Windows 10?  No need to create a hard drive partition since I would only be loading AL to RAM.   Which is really where this OS has it's greatest benefit to SQ.  That makes sense, I always wanted to try Windows OS from RAM.

 

Once AL is operating from RAM, I take there will be no problem communicating with my SATA HDD for JRiver library data and my unique mini pcie to pcie 1X adapter will function for streaming via my txUSBexp pcie card to Chord DAVE?  Fingers crossed?  

 

I may give this a try, thanks.  Why do I get a sense that there will be many more issues as I get into it??

[ElviaCaprice]

2 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

Yes the GUI vesrion (non headless) 8GB is fine.

Perfect, might take me a while to get a new dimm.  In the jungle for now.  

 

2 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

There are scripts pre prepared by Piero and you can reduced the desktop to a black screen with the taskbar and start up and use Jriver as the windows version.

I do this already in my own Windows 10 optimized and in the end shut down taskbar.  Interesting option for AL running from the USB styx.  

 

2 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

There's also a script to booting into RAM which is essential to get the best out of it.

This is really what I am after and see as a potential upgrade in SQ.  Shall be an interesting comparison from a sCLK-EX NUC to see what, if anything, can be gained.  If I couldn't accomplish this feat with my current NUC, I probably wouldn't bother with AL.

 

2 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

Regarding foreseeable problems, you'll need to update the system first before installing Jriver (again there is a pre prepared script) and it takes quite a while. You'll need to enter the password (audiolinux0) several times, click on N (no) when asked if you want to edit packages and Y (yes) or Y followed by enter, several times to install each package.

After that, install Jriver the command is in a pre prepared text in the Jriver folder, just copy and paste it in the terminal in root. Or use the same terminal after the update is finished.

 

I take this will be a one time affair?  Or do I need to go thru this setup every time I power up the NUC?  For JRiver loaded to RAM via AL I will need a Linux license, copy, I assume?  

Just to clarify, I want to load AL from boot, not from Windows 10?  But can do either, just that for RAM only I need to do it from boot?

[ElviaCaprice]

1 minute ago, LTG2010 said:

No only once, it will boot automatically into RAM everytime you boot.

You'll need a new linux license, but the trial is 30 days plenty of time to decide if you want to keep the system.

You'll need to setup your bios to boot from USB, so when the USB key is inserted it will boot into audiolinux not windows. If you take out the USB key then it should automatically boot into your hard disc (windows) without changes the bios again.

Perfect, look forward to giving it a go.?  Thanks for walking me thru it.

[ElviaCaprice]

12 minutes ago, Cornan said:

I’m personally not into ROON or NUCs for that matter, but this looks like interesting findings by Fidelizer to these eyes. Maybe Linux is not the optimal OS for ROON?

 

http://www.fidelizer-audio.com/lets-exam-roon-rock-os-windows-emulator-in-linux-clothing/

 

I wouldn't put much into what he says.  His business is threatened by AL with it's ability to run from memory and all it's optimizations built in.  Personally I never thought much about Fidelizer or for that matter AO for optimizing Windows.  Something you can accomplish on your own.    I've yet to try it out, but at first glance, I'm thinking AL is going to put these guys out of business if it can do all it says.

[ElviaCaprice]

2 hours ago, Cooler said:

I wanted to try Nuc as roon server, but with surprise found, that all nucs are with 1 ethernet port. 

Nobody mentioned that!

 

I wanted to connect it(nuc) to roon endpoint directly to eliminate any switch between.

 

Do you know guys nuc versions with two ethernet ports?

Jetway, my NUC has two ethernet ports.

[ElviaCaprice]

13 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Thanks.

 

Rob Watts has  shared a lot on the Head-Fi forum about how increased RF (from the digital source/chain) can cause increased IM distortion in the DAC and can be mistaken for more 'detail', bigger soundstage and more dynamics... 

 

This is not a knock on you at all but IF he is right in this case (we don't know, but he is an expert in this field) I wonder if you are hearing the results of increased RF and simply enjoying this perceived increase in detail for example?

 

From Rob Watts:

"As you know, RF noise creates noise floor modulation, as the intermodulation distortion from random RF noise is a white noise modulated by the wanted signal. This then results in noise floor modulation, and is very very audible. It accounts for the things sounding brighter and less smooth; additionally, when you reduce RF noise, things sound considerably warmer and darker, and one consequence of this is perception of tempo - more midrange gives the impression of a slower tempo, as individual instruments have much more body.

Now if somebody prefers the brighter sound from more noise floor modulation, then fine - that's their taste and preference. But it's not accurate."

 

 

In terms of tweaking with the digital chain, he says that it's technically better to go with a source/chain that results in a smoother, warmer, darker sound...

 

 

We will never know exactly what is happening in each and every one's system obviously. It's all fascinating stuff to me anyway.

 

And we're all clearly enjoying the music, which is the most important thing.

 

 

Are you going to always use this bull shit argument/excuse by Rob to discredit someone else's observations/listening experience, when you don't agree or refuse to acknowledge the possibilities?  

Might be best to keep your discrediting opinions to yourself.

[ElviaCaprice]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

 

Oh me, oh my. Seems you missed the last part of my post and the very respectful spirit of ALL my posts in general...:

 

We will never know exactly what is happening in each and every one's system obviously. It's all fascinating stuff to me anyway.

 

And we're all clearly enjoying the music, which is the most important thing.

 

Seems like one of us needs to chillax, just a little ?

 

No harm, just calling out the fact you've been using this Rob W/RF noise example once too often to try and discredit others observations in your so subtle ways.    In other words, it's gotten old and has already been hashed over in this thread to death.

  ?

[ElviaCaprice]

5 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Noted. So you believe that sharing a potential technical mechanism to discuss some of the observations noted recently, is actively discrediting other people's observations?

 

I wouldn't if your we're giving some original thought other than the ghost of Rob W., which many, including Austinpop are already well aware of or even present in Rob's company.

Agree, move on.

[ElviaCaprice]

38 minutes ago, mozes said:

Quick question,

If NUC+AL is so good, then what about Pico-ITX +AL?

It has a smaller motherboard, maybe there is more to it....

yes, give it a go.  Running the OS from memory benefits SQ.  Not exactly a new theme.  But much easier to do with a Linux OS like AL than Windows OS, with less memory.  

[ElviaCaprice]

24 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Thanks for the clarification on parallel LPS-1's.

 

 

 

It will work in serial, not parallel.  I originally powered my sCLK EX NUC with two LPS 1's in serial.  Replaced by SR7 which is far better.  Problem with serial is increased impedance.

[ElviaCaprice]

I think you guys are getting too hung up on NUC's as if they have some magical qualities.  If it's just audio as an endpoint using the mobo USB, LAN, AL headless with 4GB memory, then I would go even smaller mobo.

 

Like a Pico-ITX,   http://www.jetwaycomputer.com/JBC400P591.html

 

In fact, I've got one sitting around, have to give it a go as an endpoint at the summer home.

[ElviaCaprice]

Having the ISO Regen adding clarity to this new NUC endpoint doesn't give me any confidence in it's supposed superior SQ abilities considering I found the ISO Regen a detriment to SQ in my jetway single server sCLK-EX NUC system. 

 

Picked up a new 8GB memory styx.  Look forward to trying out AL loaded to memory next month.