A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[cool_chris]

I am impressed by the knolage of Romaz and Austinpop.

I am scientist and part time audiopile. Was building my servers for many years and 

latency was always my „drug” to the point I was unable to boot the optimised W12server anymore.

I was modifying my W12server root , motherboard and thausends of other things.

I quit few years ago due to the unstability of the system.

 

I know the field has changed a lot. It is impressive how much more we know this days.

Could you please think and post the ultimate server / endpoint solution ?

 

I was thinking to get the Taiko Extreme but wondering if this will be the best for the totaldac tvelve system ?

 

for that kind of money I could think of building the optimum system myself based on Euphony ?

what parts will be the best setup in your opinion ?

no ssd ! Optane for music library and system ?

I  say cost no object for this build.

 

[cool_chris]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Even more impressive is he joined in 2012, and this is his first post. That is the epitome of cool-ness! 

 

It took me 7 years to read it all 😄

I am slow and You are posting so many things a day It was almost impossible to cach up with everything. 

 

Again. I did many things back in 2010 -2015 and tested all the options.

I had to quit because of to much time I burned to keep reinstalling everything after the system was not booting anymore. I had addition to the short latency.

it looks like I was right to go this direction , but hardwere could not keep the owners needs.

After I quit I purchesd totaldac server + twelve DAC and stayed with that till now.

Unfortunate that perfect sound I was getting old times is still on the back of my head . 

I have totaldac top DAC so no need for upsample.

 

After reading all of the topicks here I think it is a good time to get back and 

1. Purchese top server soch as Taiko Extreme 

( I wish this is linux based server not windows that I hate, because w12 server plays well once installed and optimised but it starts to DEGRADE the sound with time.

Reinstalling everything brings the SQ back but it takes a day or two to install and optimise everything.

please correct me if I am wrong.

 

OR

 

2. Build the cost no object server (euphony preferable) that WILL NOT turn down or degrade the SQ with time.

 

Aditionally 

I should add the Sotm swiches ( 2 pieces ) or wait for the Uptone ether regen to come.

[cool_chris]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

• Power supply quality is paramount, and this is usually the gating factor for most people. Sadly, we live in a world where the best available outboard PSU (Paul Hynes SR7) is a vanishingly scarce commodity. I wish we had other comparable choices. There are some emerging alternatives that show promise, but it remains to be seen if any can achieve the lofty heights of the SR7.

 

 

you might be surprised but I cocected a lot of supplys over this years.

I own 6  PH SR7, 3 Bakoons, 3 Uptone 1.2 and 4 Vinnie Rossi mini 5 and 12v.

I also have 800w custom  linearvATX supply by core audio from old days that I keep in bacement for last 5 years.

I can use all this so not much limitations here.

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

• It's not just one PSU. When you add it all up, between ATX (3-rails), EPS (1 rail), Ethernet and USB cards (2 rails), you're already in need of 6 rails, and we haven't even talked about other devices like switches, USB reclockers etc. And some of these rails (ATX and EPS) require hefty current as well. This is what trips most people up. It's very difficult to get 6-8 rails of superlative PSU quality. This is why for most people, the ideal solution depends on the available power supplies.

 

as stated above I have a big collection of all kinds of supplys so not much limitations here.

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

• Clock quality is important, and can have a transformative impact on refinement and resolution. However, there appears to be a very strong cross-correlation between PSU quality and clock quality. Based on my experience so far, if you can score excellent PSUs, the additional impact of clocking is actually lower. In other words, clock improvements and PSU improvements are not strictly additive. Further I would say, PSU quality matters far more than clock quality.

I got this and fully agree with you. This is why the Taiko went to the double processor with 10 cores each with No upsampling. Powering everything well.

they also avoided the oxco clocks modes and they use stock board clock !

Powering the clock with clean current is far more important that its quality .

low phase noise is what gives SQ

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

• Faster CPUs with more cores and bigger caches have a huge impact on SQ - mostly in terms of dynamics and realism - even when running no DSP or upsampling. This is why the NUC7i7 sounds better than the CJYH/PJYH, and why the standalone server with i7-8700K sounds better still. This trumps the clock improvements that come from modding the NUC with sCLK-EX external clocking. Of course you have to pay for this in PSU rails. If your PSU quality is not sufficiently good, then you can only achieve better dynamics at the expense of harshness. This is why in many cases, if you only have a few low-current but otherwise outstanding PSUs like the LPS-1.2 or SR4 available, your best choice may still be to use a standalone NUC, or a pair of NUCs (server-endpoint). Yes, you give up some dynamics, but you get smoothness and refinement.

This is why the Taiko went to the double processor with 10 cores each with No upsampling I think.

They also avoided the oxco clocks modes and they use stock clock.

Their construction looks like it is double box in one box.

they dedicated each CPU with part of the work ( 1 renderer and 1 streemer).

is this taiko extreme better than fully moded custom server ? I dont know.

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

• Finally, software still seems to matter. Between differences in OS (Windows, AudioLinux, Euphony etc), players (Stylus, Roon, HQPlayer), it is possible to achieve significant improvement after you've dialed in the HW.

 

yes. I just have good and bad experience at the same time with W12 server.

it sounded excellent but short time. I hate W OS because it ruins my setup with time and degrades the SQ. I hope Euphony might be a good solution.

[cool_chris]

53 minutes ago, ddetaey said:

Alternatively, you can buy the 'best' linux server/streamer Pinkfaun 2.16

Dirk

You mean the Pinkfaun 2,16x with all the optional things.

  And 2 pieces . One renderer and one for streeming.

also if you add all the options that work you will end with 33 - 34 K Euro.

[cool_chris]

57 minutes ago, flkin said:

My single Pink Faun 2.16x with 4 extreme OCXO clocks sounds pretty good to me. Can’t imagine what another external box would bring apart from more CPUs, power supplies, connectors, jitter and noise

So tell me why the manufacturer used TWO Pinkfauns 2.16x at Munich show ?

I am sorry to tell you but your imagination has nothing to do with what is real.

Also this is the pace were we post What we know .

 

[cool_chris]

1 hour ago, flkin said:

The new extreme clocks really made a difference - subjectively I’d say something like 30% more pleasure. Not necessary to upsample with the clocks anymore. Everything is so clear and natural already, I’m finding upsampling now only brings a sense of unnatural massaging to the music.

This is fact. We know it.

the problem is what we dont know.

Why Taiko extreme is far better sounding than pinkfaun 2.16x ?

If Taiko is using stock clocks ?

There must be something we dont know and Taiko staff knows.

Taiko have tried to add the super moded clocks and it was always worst than with original clock.

I really wanted to know why is that ?

 

[cool_chris]

1 hour ago, ddetaey said:

Have you ever performed an inhome comparison test betwwen the Taiko Extreme and the PinkFaun 2.16x?

No . But i know some who did. They are sure the Taiko is a different animal. Much better in every way. I think base cost of 11K  PF and 20K for Extreme reflects the difference in SQ.

companies value the SQ. If there is no value no one will pay for this 😄.

good question is what about 2 PF  Connected ? This combo being at the price of extreme might be close or better than Taiko . No one tested it .

 

 

 

1 hour ago, ddetaey said:

I have not, and  I am convinced it would cost me several weeks, before I would be able to ‘define’ the difference between them, if at all.

You are asking me  if I had inhome comparison and a line leter „ you are convinced „ there will be no difference without hearing.

I value your opinion but please do not deny youself 

 

[cool_chris]

5 hours ago, lmitche said:

Get the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme. It is the best of the best. Did you know the Totaldac D1-twelve mk2 is one of the DACs used when testing the SQ of the Extreme?

 

I know a lot about the Extreme. I am impressed with the build and science behind that.

seriously considering to get it. Very expensive but probably the best solution.

I am just unsure if stripped Windows will work as good as the new installed device years later.

I have very bad memories with W 12 server. It sounds great once optimised.

afer a month or two it is garbage . SQ is very compromised.

you have to get back and install everything including the system , players and optimization.

i think Euphony could be better here than Windows.

[cool_chris]

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

Has anyone gone back and re-evaluated the USB chain?  

 

I decided on something rather simple an LPS-1.2 powering an ISORegen in 2017.  I have been "afraid" to take it out and listen without it,  Silly!   Today I am going to try the USBPCB to the KII Control rather than the second cable.  Just for fun.  

 

I went back in the thread and looked around some more, but did not find any evidence of a newer way of doing things.  Say just using a Pink Faun or Wolf Audio USB Card and a single cable?

I did it with 2 PCB insted of 2 cables!

the effect is amazing.

no cable offers soch a great improvement.

uptone did a great job with this.

make sure to turn the swich on the side of PCB off 

[cool_chris]

40 minutes ago, austinpop said:

My own perspective - and I'm not asking anyone to share or adopt it - is that given the pace  discoveries we make here, I am not comfortable plonking down $20-30k to any server manufacturer, because I'm convinced a year from now, the state of the art will have moved on significantly. I am far more comfortable spending that on a speaker, or possibly an amp. Others may disagree. With regard to the pre-DAC computer chain, this is one of the main reasons I prefer to dabble and experiment.

 

I feel the same way . Thats why I got here and wanted to get Your opinion .

Everyone. 

I consider this forum as the source of the best info and state of the art knolage in CA.

I did thausends of experiments 7 and 5 years ago so I know a little about how this is complicated. Especially the  Motherboard/ CPU / RAM / power  OR OScore setup with milions of possibilities.

 

 

My viewis little different. I have everything except of top class server ( I have only totaldac server) and top class network swich and cables ( I have jplay network cables and Paul Pang swiches) .

 

I focuse more on the server side because I know how important it is and I know I cannot learn it all myself. It just costs to much to buy everything.

 

 

[cool_chris]

5 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

Yeah, forget about windows, not good for audio. Linux based like euphony or AL are best way to go!

 

Again. I hate Windows. It was like beautiful lady. 

Gave me a true pleasure while listening the music just after install. 

but few weeks later gave me a really hard time being harsh and unpleasent.

 

[cool_chris]

5 minutes ago, bobfa said:

Due to the location of my gear, I have to keep one cable.  I have to test the VBus switch with my Kii Control to see if it needs power or not.  

I would do everything I can to replace the second USB cable with uptone PCB .

it is one of the best and chepest  upgrades you can get.

 

[cool_chris]

14 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

How about no USB cable? - regen adaptor Vbus off + some usb e coupler only, see pic, i added an isilencer to clean up the sound (ok I see cool chris did something similar!)

the quality of coupler metters.

I did the same , but I used uptone PCBs only ! No USB cable.

very good effect.

Based on the picture attached I would remove the blue couplers.

[cool_chris]

This is what I did.

removed cubox from the inside of the totaldac and connect it direct to DAC with pcb via isoRegen .

 

also I use grounding cables for the outside of the connecting PCBs.

amazing result.

[cool_chris]

What is th best way to include optane in the server ?

is it :

1. Stand alone on motherboard for OS system.

2. Addition to the existing SSD that has Os.

3. Mounted in pci express ( hyper m2 x16 card . that carries 4 modules) 

in this last configuration this could carry the music library .

 

 

[cool_chris]

20 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

I dunno man, it kinda depends on what kinda CPU + motherboard combo you're going for. And then whether you're getting the M.2 version or the AIC NVMe PCIe version of Optane.

 

We want our Optane drive(s) to occupy PCIe lanes that are directly connected to the CPU itself instead of going through the PCH. Unlike Supermicro, most manufacturers don't like to provide the block diagram of each motherboard so we've gotta do our homework

 

 

Thanks. This is more complicated then I was expecting it to be .

what configuration would be your cost no object server ?

could please you point every piece of that configuration and comment of what it does?

I understand selection of the mobo , ram and cpu .

i just dont get the optane option fully.

Is the main benefit avoiding ssd / sata connection and gaining short latency ?

if so 

should we use m2 / optane mb slot for optane chip with OS System / Euphony

and

pci express optane card for library ?

[cool_chris]

1 hour ago, drjimwillie said:

My QNAP HS253dx (slient-audiophile) NAS has two Ethernet jacks, which I bridged,

 

How do you bridge ethernet ?

what is it doing , and how it improves SQ ?

Do you have any pictures ? 

[cool_chris]

....its only purpose is that is connected to the ground outside...

 

The key word here is outside .

If so it is just separate grounding to the home grounding system that might be not optimal.

But effects depend of what power system is used in your area.

TN-C , TN-S, TN-C-S, TT, IT...

 

I also created separate grounding system exclusive for my audio room.

it is 7 metal pillars  (Each is 12m tall) hammered into the ground in my backyard and then connected all together to one very thick cupper cable that gets though wall of my litening room to the simmilar copper bar.

Professional grounding person has to do it so you do not hurt youself!!!

 

all my system boxes are connected to that .

it was like 3000 usd investment that is all gounded in my backyard but this did gigantic inprovement to my system.

 

You gain 3 things:

1. separation from the home grounding system ( all your electronics is connected to it)

that pollutes gounding.

2. Much lower impedance grounding that makes gigantic difference if you do it right,

it has ti be below 0,5 ohm (resistance) 

3. STAR topology of the grounding for all your system components that itself is a great benefit.

 

lastly this is a way better than any gounding box that actually ELEVATES the noise floor !

yes , grounding boxes elevate the noise floor.

 

[cool_chris]

1 hour ago, auricgoldfinger said:

This has certainly NOT been my experience or the experience of others I know who have used one in their systems.

 

Sadly it is reality.

no one is interesed here what someone thinks .

only reality and proven tests / mods.

Science.

Please see below: 

 

 

[cool_chris]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

12m??!! Where I live in the Texas hill country, I'd be lucky if I had 1m of topsoil before I hit limestone.

 

I am lucky . 

I have 7 of the 12 m metal sticks . All 7 are 6 m away from eachother and all are connected on the top by long thick wire, and than one wire gets into the room.

again. It is the best mode I ever did.

 

if you have issues you can have thick 1x 8 cm metal stave grounded around you home .

than you add the water absorbent to the covering soil to have the lower impedance .

 

Please see example :

 

 

[cool_chris]

4 minutes ago, taipan254 said:

That being said, I've definitely purchased what I thought was an amazing piece of equipment only to realize music quality decreased once I added it to the chain. 

 

you are right but only partially.

you need it only when your grounding is not good quality.

When it is done properly and it has very low impedance you dont need it.

please ask professional recording studio people. Big studios not home recording.

ask them what they use.

100% uses the real ground that has specyfic impedance. 

 

adding grounding box in system with excellent ground line degrades the SQ.

I loved my Entreq many years ago but I sold it once the real grounding was added.

 

the grounding boxes do work but this tells you how bad is the „common” groung line in the area you live.

Again cutting off this „ common” used grounding line was the best I did in my system.

 

[cool_chris]

It seems you do not understand .

Partially you are right. I was just pointing where you are wrong,

and where  / how you can improve your system if you want to.

I was trying to explain the great SQ effect of someone from this forum.

This works !

 

Also I was testing grounding options for more than 4 years but no problem, I can keep my findings, mods and tests for myself

 

Remember that resistance to knolage is not going to change the facts. 

You might learn same things in 4 years from now or nerver.

[cool_chris]

3 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

Just wanna quote some kind words as follows and kudos to Rajiv as usual

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-58#post-596786

 

Speaking of SGM Extreme, they weren't shy about showing us what the motherboard is

 

https://avx.hu/forum/download/file.php?id=60828

 

https://www.asus.com/Commercial-Servers-Workstations/WS-C621E-SAGE/

https://www.newegg.com/asus-ws-c621e-sage-dual-intel-socket-p-for-intel-xeon-scalable-processors-family/p/N82E16813119064

 

Processors were stated to be 1st gen Xeon Scalable with 10C/20T so the only possibilities should be 4114 / 4114T / 5115 with the same 85W TDP

 

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/123550/intel-xeon-silver-4114-processor-13-75m-cache-2-20-ghz.html

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/126153/intel-xeon-silver-4114t-processor-13-75m-cache-2-20-ghz.html

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/120484/intel-xeon-gold-5115-processor-13-75m-cache-2-40-ghz.html

 

Regarding VRM, "only" 7+1 phase for CPU and then 2 phase for DRAM

 

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/850609-asus-ws-c621e-sage/

 

We can't really match their RAM but at the very least we'll get something decent from Apacer.

 

They said it's all about "noise management" and therefore the chassis etc. must have played a really important role. Finally it might take quite a few excellent rails from the usual suspects to rival their PSU that should be hardwired internally.

 

It's kinda funny to read that similarly priced Aurender W20SE couldn't match SGM Extreme so it might take quite a bit of time and effort to beat the king

 

https://www.aurenderdirect.com/store/p2/W20SE.html

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-58#post-596874

 

In the end maybe the motherboard itself doesn't have to be THAT special then? No matter what there will be switching regulators here and there

 

http://taikoaudio.com/products/sound-galleries-music-server/

 

 

This is just a tip of the iceberg .

the main thing is softwere and the thred management .

roon and system for one bank of 6 RAMs and one processor .

jplay for other bank of  6 rams and other processor.

So it acts like 2 servers in one box.

also there are thausends things that are set in Motherboard management,

softwere setup, win 10 stripping, Registry setup, .

custom supply with Mundorf caps.

1G SFP card for network. Vibration management.

Lastly they did some discovery in regards to the clocking being able to set original motherboard clock to work better than the femtoclocks used by others.

 

Also being able to test thausends of options with other components they use ,

they have probably much more knolege than all of us together.

 

I personally did what you are doing for many many years and stopped.

I burned to much time for twicking 3 servers I had.  Could probably buy 5 Extreme servers if I would work that time that I was twicking things.

Ordering Extreme might give me a chance to focuse on music pleasure not on twicking everything I can.

[cool_chris]

17 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

As it says on the sticky on top, this thread is ideal for people who like to tweak. A corollary of that is one can achieve very high quality upstream chains for a fraction of the cost of the big boys - SGM Extreme, Pink Faun, etc.

 

If cost is no object, and your budget allows, AND if tweaking is not your thing, then yeah - I'm sure the SGM Extreme is going to be an excellent choice. I suspect it is ahead of our best efforts so far, given the fanatic level of experimentation and optimization Emile does for the product. Of course, that also makes it extremely expensive.

 

You are one of the most experienced audiophile I know on this planet.

Also Emile respects your knolage and experience in computer audio.

I know how fun it is to keep improving SQ. Did it for many years.

It is endless pleasure but I got just to tired and spent to much on different twicks.

I hope you have as much fun as I had but you will be smarter on spending less than I did.

 

[cool_chris]

On 3/18/2020 at 6:02 AM, zettelsm said:

CORRECTION (since I can't edit this post now):

 

The correct feed configuration from LAN to Extreme:

 

DSL modem > copper jumper (Sablon ethernet cable) > Startech FMC/Startech SFP with -10dB attenuator > fiber > Startec SFP with -10dB attenuator/Extreme

 

Obviously, mixing a Planet Tech SFP (1310nm) on one end and a Startech SFP (1550nm) on the other end would not have worked.

 

Also, in musical test track 3. above, it is Mozart's Piano Concerto 20 and not 2.

 

Sorry for the errors.

 

Steve Z

Steve

I agree with everything you tested and I ended of getting the similar setup to "your optimal scenario"

There is only one exception.

I WAS able to make the Startech SFP and Planet Tech SFP wokrk together.

The KEY is to use it in Sonore optical modules.

I was able to make it work BOTH ways. Startech to Planet AND Planet to Startech.

I was surprised tht it did work well with no isuues, BUT the sound is not as good as the PLanet to PLanet.

Startech SFP to Stratech SFP is also great but for the best systems only.

It works on my scenario with much , much better focuse and more control.