Starting from Scratch

[Ajax]

I'm about to embark on the refurbishment of my home and have sufficient space for a dedicated music room.

 

I would greatly appreciate advise from CA members on how they would tackle such a project. I'm more interested in people's views on the overall design philosophy, and what they see as the priorities how they would go about implementing them, rather than suggestions on individual pieces of equipment.

 

I already have a Devialet 200 + ATOHM speakers and I am currently investigating adding 2 x SVS SB 2000 subs. I will no doubt install a basic home theatre processor such as an Emotiva XMC-1 (with audio by-pass) but my priority will definitely be music - say 80:20.

 

I've read a lot including Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" and have already formed some ideas but I don't wish to disclose them as I don't want to influence others thoughts in any way. I'm also reluctant to nominate a budget as I don't want to put a cap on ideas - I'm a civil engineer and have a lot of on site building experience implementing Architects' designs while endeavouring to minimise the expense.

 

The room dimensions are 4.1m (13.5') x 4.6m (15') x 3m (10') high and there will be 2 timber framed / plasterboard lined internal walls and two stone external walls also lined with plasterboard, one of which will have french doors leading onto a courtyard.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Ajax

[mordante]

One of the first thing I'd recommend is getting some company to do some acoustic measurements in the room and invest in some acoustic treatment, abortion panels, scatter panels, bas traps etcetera.

 

In a room that size speakers that were designed to be placed against or very near a wall would also be good.

 

Make you sure you have enough power outlets and Ethernet connections (Cat6a or 7). So you can install a good tri-band wifi access point.

 

If possible add some good isolation (concrete hollow walls with fiber between the walls) so you can play the music loud without anyway hearing it.

 

Also add 1 or really comfortable chairs.

[jcn3]

^ +1.

[wgscott]

I wonder if Jim Smith needs a trip to Australia? (I can think of far worse ways to spend money.)

[Jud]

Ajax, very interested in this as we're in the process of completing the design phase of our new home (talking to the contractor tonight in fact).

 

Couple of suggestions off the top of my head:

 

- Sprayed-in open or closed cell foam insulation in the walls (think it's probably the only thing that stands a chance of reducing air movement enough to significantly reduce cavity resonances).

 

- Isolation transformer for the electrical service. Something like this (significantly less if found on e-Bay): 91002-32 Topaz Isolation Transformer 120V-120V 2400VA 0.

 

Wiring tips about iso transformers on pages 19-21: http://www.middleatlantic.com/~/media/middleatlantic/documents/whitepapers/powerpaper.ashx?la=en

 

Edit - Inexpensive calibrated mic for running your own room response tests if you decide to do that on your own rather than hiring someone: https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

 

Free software to use with this mic, if you don't decide to buy commercial stuff that is reputedly easier: https://www.minidsp.com/applications/acoustic-measurements/umik-1-setup-with-rew

 

Further edit - Handy speaker placement advice (pages 7-10 in Vandersteen manual, but can be applied to other brands) that can be used along with Jim Smith's book: http://vandersteen.com//media/files/Manuals/3asigmanual.pdf

[17629v2]

What type of equipment/sound do you like?

[witchdoctor]

One of the first thing I'd recommend is getting some company to do some acoustic measurements in the room and invest in some acoustic treatment, abortion panels, scatter panels, bas traps etcetera.

 

In a room that size speakers that were designed to be placed against or very near a wall would also be good.

 

Make you sure you have enough power outlets and Ethernet connections (Cat6a or 7). So you can install a good tri-band wifi access point.

 

If possible add some good isolation (concrete hollow walls with fiber between the walls) so you can play the music loud without anyway hearing it.

 

Also add 1 or really comfortable chairs.

 

I 100% agree, design the room first and then choose speakers/components that are best for the room. Please check out my thread on budgeting for SQ for other ideas.

[Ajax]

Hi Guys,

 

Many thanks Mordante and Jud for your advice and links.

 

To summarise what has been suggested to date:

 

1. Install dedicated wiring with an isolation transformer to remove unwanted mains noise

 

2. Locate equipment to ensure sufficient power outlets in the right locations

 

3. Install Cat 6a ethernet to support a robust and independent tri-band wifi network

 

4. Buy a u-mik1 microphone and measure the room's acoustic performance and provide acoustic treatment to remove unwanted nodes and reflections

 

5. Provide a "second" inner wall (with insulation between) to prevent sound leaving and entering the room

 

6. Experiment with speaker and subwoofer locations using Jim Smith's book and Vandersteen's manual

 

7. I've already got the chairs!

 

 

A few thoughts:

 

Apologies if this is a dumb question but if you isolate the mains power is there still arequirement for power conditioners, exotic power leads and high quality interconnects? Do you need to go to the hassle of using balanced XLR or will simple RCA cables be sufficient.

 

I'm not sure that I want to incur the extra expense of an audio consultant and I'm thinking it will be more fun and educational to DIY, however, as I write this I'm wondering out loud about Bill's idea of inviting Jim Smith (and partner) to sit on plane for 14 hours and give me the benefit of his services in return for a weeks free accomodation. Sydney is stunning this time of year and it would be amazing to spend a week with a guy with that much knowledge, although it would be a huge leap of faith by him.

 

I am very happy with the Devialet 200 / ATOHM G1 ensemble (plus 2 subs in the future), which I use mostly to play blues and classic rock, but I'm always on the look out for new music and I am not glued to any one genre. My son is an accomplished musician and into dub step and everything else so I will stay with that system for now.

 

Witchdoctor - could you please supply link to the thread you mentioned.

 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts to date. Please keep the ideas coming and I will collate them into a type of check list, which will hopefully be of benefit to others who are also considering a dedicated listening room.

 

All the best

 

 

Ajax

[witchdoctor]

Hi Guys,

 

Many thanks Mordante and Jud for your advice and links.

 

To summarise what has been suggested to date:

 

1. Install dedicated wiring with an isolation transformer to remove unwanted mains noise

 

2. Locate equipment to ensure sufficient power outlets in the right locations

 

3. Install Cat 6a ethernet to support a robust and independent tri-band wifi network

 

4. Buy a u-mik1 microphone and measure the room's acoustic performance and provide acoustic treatment to remove unwanted nodes and reflections

 

5. Provide a "second" inner wall (with insulation between) to prevent sound leaving and entering the room

 

6. Experiment with speaker and subwoofer locations using Jim Smith's book and Vandersteen's manual

 

7. I've already got the chairs!

 

 

A few thoughts:

 

Apologies if this is a dumb question but if you isolate the mains power is there still arequirement for power conditioners, exotic power leads and high quality interconnects? Do you need to go to the hassle of using balanced XLR or will simple RCA cables be sufficient.

 

I'm not sure that I want to incur the extra expense of an audio consultant and I'm thinking it will be more fun and educational to DIY, however, as I write this I'm wondering out loud about Bill's idea of inviting Jim Smith (and partner) to sit on plane for 14 hours and give me the benefit of his services in return for a weeks free accomodation. Sydney is stunning this time of year and it would be amazing to spend a week with a guy with that much knowledge, although it would be a huge leap of faith by him.

 

I am very happy with the Devialet 200 / ATOHM G1 ensemble (plus 2 subs in the future), which I use mostly to play blues and classic rock, but I'm always on the look out for new music and I am not glued to any one genre. My son is an accomplished musician and into dub step and everything else so I will stay with that system for now.

 

Witchdoctor - could you please supply link to the thread you mentioned.

 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts to date. Please keep the ideas coming and I will collate them into a type of check list, which will hopefully be of benefit to others who are also considering a dedicated listening room.

 

All the best

 

 

Ajax

 

The steps you listed seem like a recipe for success. You will see a post by a member who has a dedicated mains but still found a benefit from a power regenerator in my thread on power, will provide links ro both threads. I would recommend installing audiophile outlets which are less than $100 which are also mentioned in the power thread. As for cables IMO you can get the same or better SQ by spending more on high end cables and less on the other components. Other people in my thread feel different and you will see the opinions there.

 

Here is the thread i mentioned:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/budget-allocation-best-sq-30129/

[witchdoctor]

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/power%3D-third-element-great-system-29992/

[One and a half]

I found locating the computer, Macmini or small Lenovo m93p tiny close to the AC supplies of the DAC and other audio components a real problem. The hash/leakage currents from the DC power supplies run riot in a short closed system.

 

When a dedicated line is installed (suggest 4mm cable), run a couple of CAT5e (+) cables into the room, so the computer is outside the room and the leakage currents have some difficulty overcoming distance . If the budget allows, perhaps a FO cable.

 

USB can be extended to many metres either with FO cable or CAT5e cable.

Remote control depends on what VNC or remote app there is. Either one can be installed on an iPad or tablet, will need Wi-fi though.

 

You will need a good AC distributor with overvoltage protection mainly just for reliability of connections rather than a power conditioner which causes more problems than it solves usually. Alternatively, add more wall outlets.

[Jud]

Hi Guys,

 

A few thoughts:

 

* * *

 

Apologies if this is a dumb question but if you isolate the mains power is there still a requirement for power conditioners, exotic power leads and high quality interconnects? Do you need to go to the hassle of using balanced XLR or will simple RCA cables be sufficient.

 

* * *

 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts to date. Please keep the ideas coming and I will collate them into a type of check list, which will hopefully be of benefit to others who are also considering a dedicated listening room.

 

All the best

 

 

Ajax

 

Not a dumb question at all. Quite a good one, really.

 

I think you still want to pay attention to the power and ground sides of your system. The iso transformer (which you want in a remote location or if in the listening room then in a soundproof closet - these things are spec'd to put out less than 50 dB, but that could be more than some dishwashers) keeps junk from the rest of the house (the main cause of power line grunge) and the outdoors out of the system, but then you want to consider ground noise, etc., *within* the system itself.

 

Power conditioners, I don't think so. Personally, I don't like 'em much, and with the iso transformer you won't have the noise coming from other sources that these are supposed to get rid of.

 

One thing you may want to look at is power factor correction. There is phase distortion that limits the amount of actual power versus nominal power you can draw, and the ratio of actual power to nominal power is called the power factor. Power factor correction (PFC) optimizes this ratio. The least expensive item providing PFC currently being sold that I'm aware of is this, though there may well be others: https://www.thecableco.com/Product/Z-Plug-6-AC-Noise-Trap .

 

Pay attention to grounding within the system to avoid ground loops if at all possible. Simplicity of system layout/topology is a real help with this. You may want to read about "star grounding," see Staying Well Grounded .

 

XLR cables can help to avoid some modes of noise and some mechanisms of high frequency roll-off, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio .

 

A type of noise I wasn't aware of until recently is called "leakage current." John Swenson's Tech Corner – UpTone Audio Uptone Audio (Alex Crespi and John Swenson) have designed a power supply for low power items called the LPS-1 to get rid of leakage current, so if you have an item or items in your system that runs from 3.3, 5, or 7 volts and 1 amp you may want to consider it. UltraCap™ LPS-1 – UpTone Audio

 

That's all I can think of for now.

[Ajax]

Hi Jud and One and a half,

 

Thanks for your input ... I have always understood the need for "clean" power, and the need to minimise the noise that can be introduced into equipment, I just didn't realise it was so involved. Guess I'm not going to simply install a separate circuit for my music room. There is a lot here to get my head around so many thanks for taking the trouble to provide the various links, I've got some reading to do.

 

Anyone else feel that they can add to the following check list, which I will continue to grow and expand

 

1. Install dedicated wiring with an isolation transformer (located outside the listening room) to remove unwanted mains noise

 

2. Install power factor correction unit

 

3. Ensure everything is well grounded and provide separate circuit for digital and analogue equipment

 

4. Locate equipment to ensure sufficient power outlets in the right locations and consider separate wiring for the computer / server

 

5. Install Cat 6a ethernet to support a robust and independent tri-band wifi network

 

7. Buy a u-mik1 microphone and measure the room's acoustic performance and provide acoustic treatment to remove unwanted nodes and reflections

 

8. Provide a "second" inner wall (with insulation between) to prevent sound leaving and entering the room

 

9. Experiment with speaker and subwoofer locations using Jim Smith's book and Vandersteen's manual as a reference

[Jud]

Hi Jud and One and a half,

 

Thanks for your input ... I have always understood the need for "clean" power, and the need to minimise the noise that can be introduced into equipment, I just didn't realise it was so involved. Guess I'm not going to simply install a separate circuit for my music room. There is a lot here to get my head around so many thanks for taking the trouble to provide the various links, I've got some reading to do.

 

Anyone else feel that they can add to the following check list, which I will continue to grow and expand

 

* * *

 

2. Install power factor correction unit

 

3. Ensure everything is well grounded and provide separate circuit for digital and analogue equipment

 

* * *

 

 

Hi Ajax -

 

My apologies for the "brain dump." I wanted to try to be thorough.

 

I think it helps with what can feel overwhelming to put these things in a context, rather than looking at them as bunches of separate items that one needs to juggle simultaneously.

 

The overall context of course is getting the best from your system. Beneath this the main sub-contexts would be (a) physical layout, (b) power, and © networking.

 

Under physical layout, we could put 7-9 on your checklist.

 

Under networking we'd include 5.

 

Under power we'd include 1-4, though there's physical layout to consider with a couple of those (placement of the iso transformer and outlets) as well.

 

Hope that helps a bit to keep your thinking organized.

 

With regard to the power sub-context, the iso transformer and power factor correction (1 and 2 on your list) have to do with getting the best current out of the wall, while 3 and 4 have more to do with keeping some components in your system from mucking up power for the others.

 

I wanted to just briefly talk about 2 and 3.

 

2 - Power factor correction has most to do with the most power hungry component(s), the amp(s). So if you're using the MIT power factor correction unit, plug it in as close as possible to the outlet the amp(s) is/are using, by all means on the same circuit.

 

3 - Regarding "well grounded:" There's grounding for safety (which of course can *never* be compromised) and system arrangement for sound. Do have a look at the various references everyone's provided to see what you and your electrician might want to do over and above providing for safety, in order to keep any grunge out of the system in the first place or move it to ground as rapidly as possible.

[Ajax]

Hi Jud,

 

I like the idea of organising everything into subsections and have done so below. Later, when we get closer to actually installing and building, we can put these into the various "trade packages" e.g. electrician, carpenter, audio equipment supply, IT/network, DIY etc. to make it easier to price and project manage.

 

A. PHYSICAL LAYOUT

 

Buy a u-mik1 microphone and measure the room's acoustic performance and provide acoustic treatment to remove unwanted nodes and reflections

 

Provide a "second" inner wall (with insulation between) to prevent sound leaving and entering the room

 

Experiment with speaker and subwoofer locations using Jim Smith's book and Vandersteen's manual as a reference

 

 

B. POWER

 

Install dedicated wiring with an isolation transformer (located outside the listening room) to remove unwanted mains noise

 

Install power factor correction unit

 

Ensure everything is well grounded and provide separate circuit for digital and analogue equipment

 

Locate equipment to ensure sufficient power outlets in the right locations and consider separate wiring for the computer / server

 

 

C. NETWORKING

 

Install Cat 6a ethernet to support a robust and independent tri-band wifi network

 

 

As mentioned I will be adding two subwoofers for both music and movies and I believe utilising an active digital cross to integrate them properly is the way to go. The Devialet 200 (for music) allows for digital levelling, frequency crossover and timing / phase integration of the subs using the inbuilt programmable configurator. Similarly the Emotiva XMC -1 (for movies) has the option of adding Dirac Live for digital correction for the home theatre side.

 

Do we need a separate subsection for digital signal processing or would you include this under the Physical Layout section? What would be the steps / process be for DSP and how would you incorporate the acoustic room treatment?

 

Anything else you would like to add to our list?

[Jud]

 

As mentioned I will be adding two subwoofers for both music and movies and I believe utilising an active digital cross to integrate them properly is the way to go. The Devialet 200 (for music) allows for digital levelling, frequency crossover and timing / phase integration of the subs using the inbuilt programmable configurator. Similarly the Emotiva XMC -1 (for movies) has the option of adding Dirac Live for digital correction for the home theatre side.

 

Do we need a separate subsection for digital signal processing or would you include this under the Physical Layout section? What would be the steps / process be for DSP and how would you incorporate the acoustic room treatment?

 

I would include DSP under physical layout, yes. The steps for DSP are to measure; evaluate the measured response against some ideal response curve; make whatever changes can be made to speaker positioning and physical characteristics of the room to bring the measured response as close as possible to the ideal response curve; then use DSP to change whatever's left that doesn't get sufficiently close to the ideal.

 

Note: DSP isn't a perfect tool. Most DSP products use minimum or intermediate phase filters and have difficulty compensating for timing differences created by physical positioning (e.g., subs not co-located with main speakers). Phase and timing cues are important for our location of sounds, and thus for proper imaging and "soundstage." So do whatever you can with the physical characteristics of the room before turning to DSP.

 

I don't know anything about room treatment. My instinct is to do as much as possible with the room construction before thinking about treating what has been constructed (thus the recommendation for open or closed cell foam sprayed-in insulation). Beyond that, other folks with experience will have to weigh in, and there is Jim Smith's book.

 

Anything else you would like to add to our list?

 

Not right now, but if you give me time I am sure I will be able to complicate your life further.

[Ajax]

Thanks Jud,

 

I've updated our check list as follows.

 

I'm sure I can speak for Jud when I say we would welcome contributions from those who have already been down this path or who are interested in constructing a music room. Any additional items or flushing out topics already listed would be greatly appreciated. Remember this is just a check list, and its up the individual to take from it what he or she feels is important in getting good sound.

 

A. PHYSICAL LAYOUT

 

Install a "second" inner wall with insulation between, together with door and window seals, to prevent sound leaving and entering the room.

 

Buy a u-mik1 microphone and measure the room's acoustic performance and evaluate against some ideal response curve.

 

Make physical changes to the room to bring the measured response as close as possible to an ideal response curve by installing acoustic treatment, including bass traps and acoustic absorption panels, to remove unwanted nodes and reflections.

 

Experiment with speaker and subwoofer locations (using Jim Smith's book and Vandersteen's manual) while at the same time fine tuning with DSP so the response is as close as possible to the ideal response curve. Pay attention to timing / phase differences created by delays due to physical positioning (note: low frequencies from subs take longer to arrive at the listening position than higher frequencies from the mains and surround speakers).

 

 

B. POWER

 

Install dedicated wiring with an isolation transformer (located outside the listening room) to remove unwanted mains noise

 

Install power factor correction unit

 

Ensure everything is well grounded and provide separate circuit for digital and analogue equipment

 

Locate equipment to ensure sufficient power outlets in the right locations and consider separate wiring for the computer / server

 

 

C. NETWORKING

 

Install Cat 6a ethernet to support a robust and independent tri-band wifi network

[17629v2]

"Anything else you would like to add to our list?"

 

I see you've mentioned xlr and balanced components several times. Not all cables that have xlr connectors are fully balanced, and not all components that have xlr connectors on them are fully balanced. To make matters worse, many of these components label the connections as balanced even though they are not.

 

Once you get used to looking at these components and cables, spotting the fully balanced products from the single ended components with xlr connectors, is not that difficult. But for now, it would probably be a good idea to post here before you buy anything you think is balanced, just so you don't make a mistake.

[witchdoctor]

I'm about to embark on the refurbishment of my home and have sufficient space for a dedicated music room.

 

I would greatly appreciate advise from CA members on how they would tackle such a project. I'm more interested in people's views on the overall design philosophy, and what they see as the priorities how they would go about implementing them, rather than suggestions on individual pieces of equipment.

 

I already have a Devialet 200 + ATOHM speakers and I am currently investigating adding 2 x SVS SB 2000 subs. I will no doubt install a basic home theatre processor such as an Emotiva XMC-1 (with audio by-pass) but my priority will definitely be music - say 80:20.

 

I've read a lot including Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" and have already formed some ideas but I don't wish to disclose them as I don't want to influence others thoughts in any way. I'm also reluctant to nominate a budget as I don't want to put a cap on ideas - I'm a civil engineer and have a lot of on site building experience implementing Architects' designs while endeavouring to minimise the expense.

 

The room dimensions are 4.1m (13.5') x 4.6m (15') x 3m (10') high and there will be 2 timber framed / plasterboard lined internal walls and two stone external walls also lined with plasterboard, one of which will have french doors leading onto a courtyard.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Ajax

 

Hey Ajax, I saw this and thought of your post. My advice is go straight to a 3D audio system. Get two of these 5.1 JBL speaker systems at the currently 60% off price. That is better than a 2 for 1 sale., it has everything you need and stick the second wall mountable center channel on the ceiling above you as a VOG channel:

 

https://www.amazon.com/JBL-System-L8400P-Headphones-Included/dp/B01IWS6AGE/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1476852053&sr=8-4&keywords=jbl+studio+5+subwoofer

 

If you don't have room for 4 towers as L-R and surrounds use 4 bookshelves

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01IWS6AK0/ref=pd_sbs_504_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=PSGYE1CQBXA7JTWAF5N0