New Amarra 4

[ddalmas]

try these plugins in this order and tell me...try them in all the ways you want and suggest back to me new tips! i find this almost the nearer to A4 i could have found ....but i am thirsty of someone's experiences

plugins.tiff

[ddalmas]

Is this still better?this is the first time i not decided if to prefer A4

sound than A+ sound!! Now for me A+ sound great! Tell me 

plugins.tiff

[copy_of_a]

4 hours ago, ddalmas said:

Is this still better?this is the first time i not decided if to prefer A4

sound than A+ sound!! Now for me A+ sound great! Tell me 

plugins.tiff

IMHO with these plugins and the settings you've posted everything gets heavily overprocessed and the sound is much too bold.

Too, the compressing you are applying is considerable (a song I picked up randomly had actually DR11 but ended up at DR7 after processing...).

I also see no reason to use so many different plugins. Choose the one that suits your taste and carefully tune in "warmth" (less is more).

[ddalmas]

hi thks for your replying...... yes i know it is too much what i did but it was intended just to give sense of the plugins used than i wait suggestions from you all to define the better way to use them as the A4 sound could be well reached with A+.so pull off pull in any plugin , make any other adjustments everybody will  then post the changes as everybody could realize and work ....but consider that maybe only with one could be very hard to define every side of sound!! so i put there 2  plugins similar to preQrsor2 with the great ,and not negligible, difference  that they are completely free (PSP costs 65!) and that they seem to sound also very well ,to my ears obviously.Voxengo tube amp was suggested by dancing sea and i think it is a great goal...the last one leaves me some perplexity but it is still worth to be tested by everyone who wants .....it add that something of indefinable to the final sound (better? worst?) that keeps me in the opinion of still dogging around it, with you all better than alone. Maybe the knobs have to be still moderated, but now i see a good and easyer path ahead.

ciaociao

[DancingSea]

1 hour ago, ddalmas said:

hi thks for your replying...... yes i know it is too much what i did but it was intended just to give sense of the plugins used than i wait suggestions from you all to define the better way to use them as the A4 sound could be well reached with A+.so pull off pull in any plugin , make any other adjustments everybody will  then post the changes as everybody could realize and work ....but consider that maybe only with one could be very hard to define every side of sound!! so i put there 2  plugins similar to preQrsor2 with the great ,and not negligible, difference  that they are completely free (PSP costs 65!) and that they seem to sound also very well ,to my ears obviously.Voxengo tube amp was suggested by dancing sea and i think it is a great goal...the last one leaves me some perplexity but it is still worth to be tested by everyone who wants .....it add that something of indefinable to the final sound (better? worst?) that keeps me in the opinion of still dogging around it, with you all better than alone. Maybe the knobs have to be still moderated, but now i see a good and easyer path ahead.

ciaociao

 

 

Aloha ddalmas,

 

Did you see the great links Copy_of_a shared the thread about tube amp plugins?  Here they are:

 

https://ledgernote.com/columns/mixing-mastering/what-is-tape-saturation-best-plugins/

http://blog.landr.com/8-free-vst-plugins-warm-sound/

http://getthatprosound.com/16-of-the-best-saturation-plugins-in-the-world/

 

Copy_of-a is a good guide for us, I've read things he's posted in other threads and he really knows his stuff.  The article about tape saturation is excellent.  I downloaded several of the free plugins (see attached photo).  As mentioned, I've used Voxengo Tube Amp before.  While it seemed ok, it was not enough to elevate A+ to the Amarra level.  The too expensive PSP preQursor2 helped, but I'm hesitant on the price.  

 

The advice of not over processing is very good.  One advantage of Amarra is that whatever monkeying around Sonic Studios has done results in a very professional, cohesive sound.  Too many A+ plugins all jacked up on high settings is going end up with a distorted experience.

 

I also like simplicity.  While I haven't had time to test it, but based upon just reading, I'm very interested in the SoftTube Saturation Knob.  You have to jump through hoops to get it (create SoftTube account, iLok and Gobble2 - and link all 3 together).  It has 3 settings to decide on which part of the spectrum to apply the effect, and then a lone knob to decide how much saturation to apply.

 

I'm interested to try Tokyo Dawn Labs's TDR VOS SlickEQ which in the "linear" section has presets like "silky" and simple knobs to adjust the treble.  The others in the attached photos look interesting as well.

 

Will report more as I have time to experiment with the sound.

 

An Amarra 4 Luxe iTunes integration mode would be lovely at this point.  It is fun doing all of the adjustment of plugins in A+, but its also easy to get compulsive and I end up getting lost in plugin adjusting and not enjoy the music itself.

 

Please note that I obviously don't run all these plugins at once!  Its just a stable in which to experiment.

 

[DancingSea]

On June 24, 2017 at 2:01 AM, copy_of_a said:

Harshness + "digital" sound... I agree!

Apart from the use of plugins to massage the sound I feel A+ sounds remarkably better and smoother with 1.) Direct Mode disabled (to utilze MACs native integer mode, not Audirvanas own driver), 2.) overall gain reduced to at least -3db (independend of the DAC used) and 3.) a decent USB filter (I for one use the Intona USB isolator... and would regard it as one of the most worthwhile upgrades to my system). (And 4.) the SRC settings play a role in case you are upsampling).

Even if you don't use any other plugins I also feel A+ sounds less harsh if you apply 24bit Dither (TPDF will do) in the AUplugin section of A+ (at least when your DAC is 24bit).

If you use plugins they typically work at 64bit internally and in this case applying Dither after your plugins is more or less mandatory. So if you think about using preQursor2 and/or tube/warmth simulation plugins you should also look for a 24bit Dither plugin.

 

 

Thanks for these tips.  I've made the adjustments you suggest.  The only one I can't figure out is the "apply 24bit Dither (TPDF will do) in the AUplugin seciont of A+." 

 

Is there one such existing plugin?  I looked through the AU list but didn't see anything about 24 bit (maybe I missed it).  Or are you referring to a 3rd party plugin that must be installed like the various tube/ saturation plugins?  If yes, can you suggest a good 24bit Dither plugin?

 

My DAC is a brand new PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell.  I have an iFi Nano USB filter arriving on Monday.

 

And what about A+ Integer mode?  Which setting for that to inch in the Amarra direction?

 

Mahalo From Maui

[copy_of_a]

2 hours ago, DancingSea said:

The only one I can't figure out is the "apply 24bit Dither (TPDF will do) in the AUplugin seciont of A+." 

 

Is there one such existing plugin?  I looked through the AU list but didn't see anything about 24 bit (maybe I missed it).  Or are you referring to a 3rd party plugin that must be installed like the various tube/ saturation plugins?  If yes, can you suggest a good 24bit Dither plugin?

Yes, I was referring to a 3rd party plugin.

I don't know this one but it's freeware and therefore you might try it: http://www.airwindows.com/tpdf-dither/

 

Quote

My DAC is a brand new PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell.

If it's brand new it's most likely 32bit, isn't it?

Dither is basically always essential when you reduce the bit depth (and since the plugins we are talking about here work at 64bit internally you should apply Dither to the bit depth of your DAC). But in the case of a 32bit DAC Dither to 24bit is most likely not necessary.

However, while Dither - especially high Dither levels - may make noise more audible theoretically ("theoretically" because the noise level of 24bit Dither is really much too low to be audible) it also adds smoothness and depth.

Therefore me personally I always apply 24bit Dither...

 

Quote

I have an iFi Nano USB filter arriving on Monday.

great! I am sure you will be extremely pleased. Expect everything to sound much more defined and more precise...

 

Quote

And what about A+ Integer mode?  Which setting for that to inch in the Amarra direction?

Preferences -> Audio System (second tab) -> Low Level Playback options:
exclusive access mode: checked
Direct Mode: unchecked
Integer Mode: checked

 

__________

 

The list of plugins you've posted above also contains compressors. For me personally the goal is not to sacrifice dynamic range or to really alter the original music. My goal is to make it sound as it is, but a bit more "colorful", "richer", "warmer" ... as if it's played through different gear with more "musical energy", so to say...

This is why I think the pre-amp section of "preQursor2" (or something similar) is the way to go when you try to get a sound that is close to Amarra 4. You can also enable "SAT" in the output section (which is a limiter with soft clipping in the style of tape saturation) - when the output is set to -3db it will not compress the music ("SAT" is applied post output gain) but will still make the harshest attacks a bit rounder/softer in a very, very pleasant way (I would say there's a similar effect at work in Amarra ... but of course I am not sure).

Now, of course you can also add a "tube" and/or "tape" saturation effect ... but if so, IMHO it should be applied carefully at really low settings. Otherwise we are not talking about "Amarra-Sound" anymore. Amarra does not artificially overprocess the sound... it makes it gentle, round, warm (compared to any other player).

 

 

[copy_of_a]

14 hours ago, DancingSea said:

 

Since you've found Klanghelm MJUCjr (which is a compressor) you might better try the free Klanghelm IVGI (which is designed to add saturation): https://klanghelm.com/contents/products/IVGI/IVGI.php

I have a different tool so I haven't tried IVGI yet ... but will certainly look into it sooner or later. Personally I am missing a "Mix" knob ("dry/wet") to blend the unprocessed music with the effect. But as you are looking for simplicity this plugin might be (almost) as easy to use as the Softube Saturation Knob.

 

[ddalmas]

hi i'm here again and i must say with great enjoy after having read the copy_of_a articles! i feel he is a great connoisseur of sound techniques! it is always a pleasure to have such interfaces!as If i remember well i have already told in some previous post of mine that  i have a little knowledge of sound( my recording  studio was quite well equipped and i had a 25 years experience in making records...i have had 48 analog tape tracks ,2 studiers A80 ,linked together with a Z3 synchronizer ,working on an Amek 51 ch Angela and then finally working on a 80 ch Neve consolle passing through a Trident Vector 48 ch, the worst in my opinion, and also using the best possible outboard such as UREI AMS DBX Lexicon and so on)... this for clearing that i know what we are talking about concerning sound! I also was a great support of the less path possible in sound processing (i recorded classical music almost always using 2 mics only  technique max 4 mins ,2 for ambience ,with almost always great results!)

This long introduction to say that i agree  with the conviction that to use the less possible processing in sound is a great idea! but otherwise we are dealing about A4 sound  and a question comes to me automatically....how do they did their sound?without processing it with warmers eqs compressors and what else more on earth?this is hard to believe for me! ( in a kitchen every cook starts from the same primary material and then manipulate it to reach sometimes or always very different results from other cooks be-ending upon its competence and fantasy!)...well here dealing about the idiot savant A4 programmers they surely used a magic processing to sort out that sublime sound of A4, but however a processing it is!

So well we are here only for trying what could be done to completely reach A4 sound but with more friendly players as A+ !This passing across cerebral brain diseases ....when all could be so easy if the idiot savant ears would be only less deaf! But if it was so i must say that we would never be here to discuss and i didn't met guys as you!the moon has always 2 faces! well let's work together to reach the desired result

ciaociao

PS does anybody know the reason why the saturation knob does not work in my system?A+ crashes overtime i try to use it!

[copy_of_a]

1 hour ago, ddalmas said:

how do they did their sound?

I guess their EQs are designed to simulate some kind of "analogue"/"saturated" sound (as many, many other EQs are) and if you switch the EQ "off" in A4 the frequency bands get disabled but the music is still routed through the EQ that applies its default sound to the music. But again...: that's just a guess.

As you can see there are hundreds of plugins available that simulate analogue sound, even lots of freeware. It's certainly not rocket science ...

 

Quote

we are here only for trying what could be done to completely reach A4 sound but with more friendly players as A+!

Yes.

Although I don't care whether or not I can exactly reproduce A4 sound. After some more tweaking in the last 2 weeks meanwhile I actually like A+ with my plugins/settings better than A4. Relaxed sound with pretty similar richness/warmth but better definition (especially more precise bass). In conjunction with plugins the clinical differentiated sound of A+ can also be an advantage...

[ddalmas]

yes yes yes i completely agree that A4 sound is not THE ABSOLUTE SOUND at all !!!!so would you be so kind to attach a pic as i did ,with your plugins chain? so i would be able to test exactly as you mean to ear  your sound.

no suggestions for saturation knob that crashes A+?

ciaociao

[copy_of_a]

2 minutes ago, ddalmas said:

so would you be so kind to attach a pic as i did ,with your plugins chain? so i would be able to test exactly as you mean to ear  your sound.

Most people here found preQursor2's price tag at $69,- too high. In addition (inspired by your discussion about tube-like saturation) I've throwed in a saturation plugin that is another $199,-. So I fear my personal settings are not really relevant here...

However, preQursor2's analogue pre-amp at +8, output gain -3db, SAT enabled ... and after that a (smooth) tube-like saturation plugin at very, very moderate settings (and finally 24bit Dither) will do most likely the same.

In any case I can't share anything that does not include preQursor2 as the main plugin ...

 

Quote

no suggestions for saturation knob that crashes A+?

unfortunately not, I'm sorry ...

[ddalmas]

ok ....but tell me only if saturation knob did works in your A+?

I have stated that unfortunately  with preQursor2 only i cannot reach a satisfactory sound to forget A4 forever!!it is not the problem of the 60$ but it seems to me that the same precursor result could be obtained with free plugins!

ciaociao again ...and thks of all

[copy_of_a]

13 minutes ago, ddalmas said:

ok ....but tell me only if saturation knob did works in your A+?

I have not installed Saturation Knob. The registration process is a nightmare...

 

Quote

I have stated that unfortunately  with preQursor2 only i cannot reach a satisfactory sound to forget A4 forever!!it is not the problem of the 60$ but it seems to me that the same precursor result could be obtained with free plugins!

Maybe.

PSP states about their preQursor2: "In every usage case, PSP preQursor2 will maintain the natural feel and definition of the material." Now, you can dismiss this as marketing talk. But IMHO it's not (just) marketing ... it's exactly what I like so much about this plugin. I am a bit biased, since I own version 1 of preQursor (so preQursor2 was a free upgrade for me) and I was really blown away by the improved analog modelling algorithm when version 2 came out a few weeks ago. I'm not so sure that you can re-create this very sound with other satuation plugins (but of course you can come to similar results).

Why not try preQursor2 with my settings and in addition this one: https://klanghelm.com/contents/products/IVGI/IVGI.php  ?

I'll try the Klnghelm plugin as well in the next days... the feature set looks promising (hopefully it also sounds good...)

 

 

[DancingSea]

33 minutes ago, copy_of_a said:

Most people here found preQursor2's price tag at $69,- too high. In addition (inspired by your discussion about tube-like saturation) I've throwed in a saturation plugin that is another $199,-. So I fear my personal settings are not really relevant here...

However, preQursor2's analogue pre-amp at +8, output gain -3db, SAT enabled ... and after that a (smooth) tube-like saturation plugin at very, very moderate settings (and finally 24bit Dither) will do most likely the same.

In any case I can't share anything that does not include preQursor2 as the main plugin ...

 

 

Yes, please don't let our complaining about the cost of preQursor2 deter you from sharing your entire esteemed recipe.  I'm very happy to pay the $69 - though of course one can't help but look for freebies.

 

I like preQursor2 quite a bit.  It certainly improves A+ a great deal.  But as our Italian friend has pointed out, preQursor2 alone hasn't moved the needle entirely to the "eject A4" notch.  I tried the Voxengo tube amp along with preQursor2, but I wasn't so thrilled with Voxengo.  Because its not quite there, then why spend the money on preQursor2?  

 

Now the path has led to a whole pile of saturation plugins to explore to see if we can get A+ to a satisfactory level.

 

Thus copy_of_a, please do share your entire A+ recipe, ingredients, cooking times, and techniques. With my preqursor2 trial running out in a week, it would be great to add the magic sauce before all turns back into a pumpkin.

[DancingSea]

5 minutes ago, copy_of_a said:

I have not installed Saturation Knob. The registration process is a nightmare...

 

Maybe.

PSP states about their preQursor2: "In every usage case, PSP preQursor2 will maintain the natural feel and definition of the material." Now, you can dismiss this as marketing talk. But IMHO it's not (just) marketing ... it's exactly what I like so much about this plugin. I am a bit biased, since I own version 1 of preQursor (so preQursor2 was a free upgrade for me) and I was really blown away by the improved analog modelling algorithm when version 2 came out a few weeks ago. I'm not so sure that you can re-create this very sound with other satuation plugins (but of course you can come to similar results).

Why not try preQursor2 with my settings and in addition this one: https://klanghelm.com/contents/products/IVGI/IVGI.php  ?

I'll try the Klnghelm plugin as well in the next days... the feature set looks promising (hopefully it also sounds good...)

 

 

 

Yes, will give all a try for sure.  What is your tube plugin of choice?

 

Yes, Saturation Knob was a chore to register.  I contacted them, their whole system was messed up.  The problem has been fixed.  But it is strange to have to create an account with SoftTube, install Gobbler2, and link it all to an iLok account to download one free plugin.

 

It just shows how thirsty we are to squeeze a decent analog sound of the digital tree we find ourselves so high up in.

[svart-hvitt]

LOSING INTEREST...

 

What's wrong with "transparency", like in nothing added, nothing subtracted?

 

Has digital playback reached a level where transparency is so easily reached that you need  music players to deviate from the transparent path?

 

It seems like people are willing to spend money and efforts to go from transparency to something which suits one's individual, changing taste.

 

What happened to the taste for transparency and high fidelity?

[DancingSea]

2 hours ago, copy_of_a said:

Since you've found Klanghelm MJUCjr (which is a compressor) you might better try the free Klanghelm IVGI (which is designed to add saturation): https://klanghelm.com/contents/products/IVGI/IVGI.php

I have a different tool so I haven't tried IVGI yet ... but will certainly look into it sooner or later. Personally I am missing a "Mix" knob ("dry/wet") to blend the unprocessed music with the effect. But as you are looking for simplicity this plugin might be (almost) as easy to use as the Softube Saturation Knob.

 

 

I've installed the Klanghelm IVGI.  I honestly have no idea what any of the knobs do!

[DancingSea]

19 minutes ago, svart-hvitt said:

LOSING INTEREST...

 

What's wrong with "transparency", like in nothing added, nothing subtracted?

 

Has digital playback reached a level where transparency is so easily reached that you need  music players to deviate from the transparent path?

 

It seems like people are willing to spend money and efforts to go from transparency to something which suits one's individual, changing taste.

 

What happened to the taste for transparency and high fidelity?

 

I think its all a matter of personal preference rather than right or wrong.  Its about what speaks to a given individual.  Some like transparency, others like "adjustments".  So what?  To each their own.  C'est la vie.

[svart-hvitt]

1 minute ago, DancingSea said:

 

I think its all a matter of personal preference rather than right or wrong.  Its about what speaks to a given individual.  Some like transparency, others like "adjustments".  So what?  To each their own.  C'est la vie.

Which means that you shouldn't go for Amarra if transparency is a goal.

 

For many, transparency is a goal.

 

Transparency used to be a goal in hifi.

 

Do all Amarra customers make their decision in the know that Amarra isn't transparent?

 

 

[copy_of_a]

1 hour ago, DancingSea said:

please do share your entire A+ recipe...

will do

[copy_of_a]

56 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

I've installed the Klanghelm IVGI.  I honestly have no idea what any of the knobs do!

https://klanghelm.com/docs/IVGI2-manual.pdf

[copy_of_a]

41 minutes ago, svart-hvitt said:

For many, transparency is a goal.

Transparency used to be a goal in hifi.

Do all Amarra customers make their decision in the know that Amarra isn't transparent?

I would regard Amarra as being transparent... while still providing "character" (as opposed to the sheer analytical sound of some other softwares).

Too, I am happy to have options. A+ with some tweaking towards "analog" (whatever...) sound is nice for everyday use and especially for Pop/Rock/Electronic music at a moderate volume levels. I can always disable the tweaks with a single mouse click ... or switch to HQPlayer with DSD-Upsampling (which is what I mostly prefer for classical music).

 

[svart-hvitt]

3 minutes ago, copy_of_a said:

I would regard Amarra as being transparent... while still providing "character" (as opposed to the sheer analytical sound of some other softwares).

Too, I am happy to have options. A+ with some tweaking towards "analog" (whatever...) sound is nice for everyday use and especially for Pop/Rock/Electronic music at a moderate volume levels. I can always disable the tweaks with a single mouse click ... or switch to HQPlayer with DSD-Upsampling (which is what I mostly prefer for classical music).

 

Amarra doesn't sound (sic!) transparent if people use layers of EQ software to emulate the "Amarra sound".

 

And in extendion: It's a bit surprising to see how people prefer MQA to original FLAC, knowing that MQA is a lower resolution version of the original FLAC that has gone through a filter process.

 

And people here argue about which music player is the best, which is really a discussion about taste because the ideal of transparency is abandoned.

 

Discussions about taste are lengthy, often with no end in sight. Discussions on technology are often more disciplined and, in the end, more rewarding.

 

Wouldn't the more hifi oriented listener with interest in technology be better served if he chose music player based on features instead of "taste"? Isn't it more straight forward to let the music play instead of letting the music player take the lead role?

[ddalmas]

Ahh my dear svart-hvitt how i would agree !! in HiEnd hifi we always reached the best transparency of sound the less knobs possible to pass the signal across and so on....and here we are to add anything possible on the path of our precious sound! Why this?Simply because there is not a sure starting point and so every player programmer do his will!! you start from flac/wav/aiff files and where do you go?In your reasonemet iTunes is the purity just as VLC , A+, A4 and so on!! no this is not true because in this liquid music domain transparency  and purity have not a home!! all is intended to emulate the analog sound of your turntable , but since  i owe 15 different turntable and all them 15 sounds different from one another , and still disregarding the cartridges that all sound different too!So can any one tell where is then right thing? no it is impossible ! The only thing that we can do is to try to go the nearer possible to the sound of a tape or a turntable just to fight against the damned bits that goes plastic our music! this does A4 with its pre manipulated sound or A+ with its possibility to use plugins! but remember that neither with tapes in recording studio we knew if what we are going to sent a vinyl firm was the reality! if we record on ampex tapes the sound was very different than the sound of Basf tapes and the adjustments of tape recorders were always critical and unstable....a great mess !! so please my dear do not feel as a scandal if we are working on manipulation of sound! maybe we are the new pioneers of sound evolution...And where are the features of a player ? who gives the feature? nobody ! and how are the flacs generated? when we will have all this as a standard ,such as rack mount measures, well then we could have a real neutral files reader!! not now i believe! 

Ah i forgot this in my previous posts: just talking about iTunes A4 integration...could anyone say to me how to integrate a great flac library since iTunes does not see them?? Converting obviously is here excluded as option !! but if iTunes does not read all my library what utility has A4 iTunes integration ??

ciaociao