How important is the Switch?

[Ultrarunner]

I use a wireless AC bridge to get high res files from my NAS upstairs. Wireless N also worked but the distance from router upstairs to my music room downstairs caused dropouts sometimes. Since upgrading to AC I've had no issues streaming high res (DSD or 192/24 files)

 

Thanks. Sounds like what I need. What model?

[tboooe]

Thanks. Sounds like what I need. What model?

 

Dlink DAP-1650

My wireless ac router is asus Nighthawk R7000

[lmitche]

What is your "standalone wireless adapter"? Does it pass high res without issue? I'm hoping to make this work with a microRendu, to avoid drilling holes and running ethernet cable.

 

My wireless adapter is this model:

 

http://www.asus.com/us/Networking/EAN66/

 

It sits 6 inches from the second router and behind the music server, so it only carries control signals from the IPad.

[Ultrarunner]

Dlink DAP-1650

My wireless ac router is asus Nighthawk R7000

 

Thanks again. I'm currently using the previous generation AirPort Extreme, for which I've obtained a linear powers supply. I've been reluctant to upgrade to the latest Extreme (with ac), since it's power supply is built in. I don't want to add a switching power supply to the grid. If I can use my existing linear power supply, maybe I can bring myself to switch from the Apple product.

[Freann]

A question on ethernet cabling: does screened CAT6 cables break the galvanic isolation?

Could screened cables potentially transmit power supply induced noise? And ordinary CAT6 would not?

[plissken]

Real quick run down:

 

Ethernet is noise immune up to 30Mhz

 

Ethernet is extremely robust

 

The only weak link in Ethernet is single ended power supply. The only way to over come this is go with a balanced power supply.

 

Read the links they are very eye opening in debunking a lot of misunderstanding applied as gospel.

[jabbr]

Real quick run down:

 

Ethernet is noise immune up to 30Mhz

 

Ethernet is extremely robust

 

The only weak link in Ethernet is single ended power supply. The only way to over come this is go with a balanced power supply.

 

Read the links they are very eye opening in debunking a lot of misunderstanding applied as gospel.

 

Well of course Ethernet is very robust and there are ways to reduce noise using Ethernet like balanced power etc.

 

Of course using the 1000base-X Ethernet protocol as opposed to the 1000base-T protocol which enables fiber optic Ethernet rather than copper Ethernet is a very easy and very inexpensive way to reduce noise. Not that it is the only way but certainly much much cheaper than balanced power (which I use) and other techniques.

[plissken]

Well of course Ethernet is very robust and there are ways to reduce noise using Ethernet like balanced power etc.

 

Of course using the 1000base-X Ethernet protocol as opposed to the 1000base-T protocol which enables fiber optic Ethernet rather than copper Ethernet is a very easy and very inexpensive way to reduce noise. Not that it is the only way but certainly much much cheaper than balanced power (which I use) and other techniques.

 

It's just information and I myself am a fan of optical fiber due to it's affordability and benefit. Wireless brings all the benefits of optical isolation.

 

No one to this day has shown me any EMI or RFI problems with wireless and sound quality.

 

Also you you don't need anything over N (150) to do DSD or 24/192.

[jabbr]

It's just information and I myself am a fan of optical fiber due to it's affordability and benefit. Wireless brings all the benefits of optical isolation.

 

No one to this day has shown me any EMI or RFI problems with wireless and sound quality.

 

Also you you don't need anything over N (150) to do DSD or 24/192.

 

Yes. I feel that if there is any concern about noise with or without switches then just go optical. Of course that's from someone not looking to make $$$ selling fancy isolation boxes or special cables or special audiophile boards

 

--not accusing you of that, it seems that this question keeps popping up.

[lmitche]

Stepping back, there are three ways to achieve Ethernet isolation, wireless, fiber and network isolation transformers and hybrids of the above. People report positive experiences with each, so go with "whatever floats your boat".

[Forehaven]

Well of course Ethernet is very robust and there are ways to reduce noise using Ethernet like balanced power etc.

 

Of course using the 1000base-X Ethernet protocol as opposed to the 1000base-T protocol which enables fiber optic Ethernet rather than copper Ethernet is a very easy and very inexpensive way to reduce noise. Not that it is the only way but certainly much much cheaper than balanced power (which I use) and other techniques.

 

Jabbr, I see in your signature that you're using a NAA as well as Ethernet Opt Isolation. Are you finding that the opt. isolation you've been working on so much (great thread btw), is still beneficial even with a NAA in the system? I thought that was supposed to eliminate all the Ethernet noise no?

[jabbr]

Jabbr, I see in your signature that you're using a NAA as well as Ethernet Opt Isolation. Are you finding that the opt. isolation you've been working on so much (great thread btw), is still beneficial even with a NAA in the system? I thought that was supposed to eliminate all the Ethernet noise no?

 

NAA reduces noise from workstation (which for me was really nasty with my 4K monitor/GPU etc) when DAC was USB attached. I hadn't payed attention to this until I upgraded my GPU and 4K Monitor and heard a harsh buzzing as soon as the DAC was plugged in via USB.

 

Optical reduces noise from copper Ethernet.

 

Folks have now been eliminating the disc drive by booting the NAA over the network (using iSCSI/PXE) and have been hearing improved sound. Presumably because the SATA interface causes noise.

 

So by going optical, the Ethernet interface is significantly quieter. The most important link is to the NAA.

 

Its all a matter of degree. I you are happy with your network, wireless or wired, then there is no reason change. Try NAA and see if you hear improvement, and then try FMCs with fiberoptic to NAA (its not expensive) and see if you hear improvement.

I did and then went with fiberoptic switch and NIC (in NAA).

[Forehaven]

NAA reduces noise from workstation (which for me was really nasty with my 4K monitor/GPU etc) when DAC was USB attached. I hadn't payed attention to this until I upgraded my GPU and 4K Monitor and heard a harsh buzzing as soon as the DAC was plugged in via USB.

 

Optical reduces noise from copper Ethernet.

 

Folks have now been eliminating the disc drive by booting the NAA over the network (using iSCSI/PXE) and have been hearing improved sound. Presumably because the SATA interface causes noise.

 

So by going optical, the Ethernet interface is significantly quieter. The most important link is to the NAA.

 

Its all a matter of degree. I you are happy with your network, wireless or wired, then there is no reason change. Try NAA and see if you hear improvement, and then try FMCs with fiberoptic to NAA (its not expensive) and see if you hear improvement.

I did and then went with fiberoptic switch and NIC (in NAA).

 

Thanks so much Jabbr! It's so affordable to enact an opt. isolation that I am def planning on moving forward given your feedback Also, I was going to sell my Regen and RUR (under eval now) to put funds toward Microrendu, but see you're also keeping one in your USB sig chain. So I'll hold off.

 

When I get ready to buy the switch, I'll hit you up on your thread to make sure I have the best up to date switch. I like your Diablo w. built in SFMs which seems like that'd be worth the extra money.

 

Again, Thanks man!

[jabbr]

I just put up a link to a Cisco 10 port SFP switch on the optical thread, for like $225. I don't have one, but Cisco needless to say has a great reputation, and I don't think you can go wrong. It looks like it takes an external power supply so LPS can be plugged in. I am seeing more and more SFP products hitting the market at great consumer level prices.

 

The microrendu remains to be seen. I think there is still a market for higher end USB conversion widgets but I think its a substantial part of the price of the DAC itself, doesn't do optical which frankly at that price point is questionable. I've offered to compare it to my fiberoptic NAA but haven't been taken up on the offer. I think that over time, the higher end DAC market will move to direct Ethernet input (running NAA in the DAC itself, or HQPlayer via Ravenna), which will enable fiberoptic input (the devices that are being built to do Ethernet input via FPGA provide for easy SFP input). The reason for this is that if you add up the cost of all the stuff that's needed to get a good quality USB connection, being microrendu + fancy USB cable + LPS + ?regen at the other end, that can easily go over $1000 or even $2000, and then the I2S signal on the DAC side still has to be isolated, FIFO'd and reclocked (another FPGA/SoC) and so a smart DAC could do all that much more cost effectively with a direct Ethernet input. just my 2p

[lmitche]

You are indeed absolutely right on the notion of a fiber DAC. Unfortunately Ravenna is proprietary, and I can't find any open source AES67 stacks. Do you have any idea about licensing costs for this stuff?

[jabbr]

You are indeed absolutely right on the notion of a fiber DAC. Unfortunately Ravenna is proprietary, and I can't find any open source AES67 stacks. Do you have any idea about licensing costs for this stuff?

 

I've been looking into it, and no there doesn't seem to be an open source AES67. I've emailed ALX Networx to see what the licensing costs are.

 

Regarding NAA, I am hoping to get this running on the "snickerdoodle" (Xilinx zynq 7020) I have on order. The SFP input (SGMII) is done in the FPGA, and there are open cores available, as well as for I2S. I don't think it should be too much work to modify the I2S core to do direct DSD. NAA should run on the ARM which runs Linux. So we are talking $150 in currently (almost) available hardware if done using open source.

 

The cost of building a custom audiophile board should actually be fairly cheap if done as a group buy. You'd need a Zynq chip and a low noise power supply and an SFP cage, and a good crystal oscillator The other approach is to use the Marvell Armada A38X chip which is on the upcoming Solid-Run ClearFog. I don't know the details of I2S on that chip yet but could be even cheaper: again an Armada 388 chip, good power supply, crystal and SFP cage (this SoC also implements SGMII on the chip). Assuming it can run the correct flavor of Linix to support NAA. Well ok, you also need a USB connector so there's some way to load the program onto the system:) I know there is a lot of audiophile handwaving but these chips do everything that's needed.

[lmitche]

Thanks for the details. Please let me know how the Ravenna discussion goes. I'm curious to see if this is economically feasible.

[BobSherman]

NAA reduces noise from workstation (which for me was really nasty with my 4K monitor/GPU etc) when DAC was USB attached. I hadn't payed attention to this until I upgraded my GPU and 4K Monitor and heard a harsh buzzing as soon as the DAC was plugged in via USB.

 

Optical reduces noise from copper Ethernet.

 

Folks have now been eliminating the disc drive by booting the NAA over the network (using iSCSI/PXE) and have been hearing improved sound. Presumably because the SATA interface causes noise.

 

So by going optical, the Ethernet interface is significantly quieter. The most important link is to the NAA.

 

Its all a matter of degree. I you are happy with your network, wireless or wired, then there is no reason change. Try NAA and see if you hear improvement, and then try FMCs with fiberoptic to NAA (its not expensive) and see if you hear improvement.

I did and then went with fiberoptic switch and NIC (in NAA).

 

 

+1

[ja4244]

I have no idea how but a LPS does improve sound quality a lot even though I connect router to Auralic Aries through Wi-Fi. Amazing! But I don't want to discuss non-audio items for audio enjoyment.

 

從我的 LG-H959 發送

[Forehaven]

I just put up a link to a Cisco 10 port SFP switch on the optical thread, for like $225. I don't have one, but Cisco needless to say has a great reputation, and I don't think you can go wrong. It looks like it takes an external power supply so LPS can be plugged in. I am seeing more and more SFP products hitting the market at great consumer level prices.

 

The microrendu remains to be seen. I think there is still a market for higher end USB conversion widgets but I think its a substantial part of the price of the DAC itself, doesn't do optical which frankly at that price point is questionable. I've offered to compare it to my fiberoptic NAA but haven't been taken up on the offer. I think that over time, the higher end DAC market will move to direct Ethernet input (running NAA in the DAC itself, or HQPlayer via Ravenna), which will enable fiberoptic input (the devices that are being built to do Ethernet input via FPGA provide for easy SFP input). The reason for this is that if you add up the cost of all the stuff that's needed to get a good quality USB connection, being microrendu + fancy USB cable + LPS + ?regen at the other end, that can easily go over $1000 or even $2000, and then the I2S signal on the DAC side still has to be isolated, FIFO'd and reclocked (another FPGA/SoC) and so a smart DAC could do all that much more cost effectively with a direct Ethernet input. just my 2p

 

That would be a really nice clean sounding DAC! Mmmm...a new DAC lol I'd LOVE an ethernet DSD only DAC! With clock in/out too lol Now, that might be worth the wait while I change over to optical, get some LPS's, and a Mac Mini DC Conversion. Ted also posted the same link to that Cisco, but I need to save the cash so I'll probably go with the Chinese version.

 

Gotta get off my rear and sell some gear for some new goodies! Thanks for the help guys!