Will better Wifi router improve the sound of my Hifi system?

[mentt]

Hi All, I am using my streamer only via Wifi, NAS is also connected only via Wifi. Reason? It sounds better compare to wired connection. My question is: As I have only regular Wifi router, will better router for example Asus RT-AC68U Dual-band Wireless-AC1900 Gigabit Router improve the sound even more? There is no problem with the signal strength . Wifi router is in the same room with my Hifi gear so signal strength is on maximum(full bars). I can also upgrade my NAS with something like this ASUS PCE-AC68 . Will this all improve sound of my Hifi system?

[plissken]

Wifi in general has the potential to sound better than wired connections due to electrical isolation.

 

With that said switching up properly working wifi units with another isn't going to net you any SQ improvements.

 

What you potentially gain with another Wifi router is more throughput but for audio you don't need much. I have a video in another thread showing a single core Celeron $219 craptop playing back 24/192 over 150N wireless with only a solid ok signal and it was still more than enough bandwidth to watch the transfer rate going to 0Kbps as the buffer on the player application topped off.

[mentt]

Wifi in general has the potential to sound better than wired connections due to electrical isolation.

 

With that said switching up properly working wifi units with another isn't going to net you any SQ improvements.

 

What you potentially gain with another Wifi router is more throughput but for audio you don't need much. I have a video in another thread showing a single core Celeron $219 craptop playing back 24/192 over 150N wireless with only a solid ok signal and it was still more than enough bandwidth to watch the transfer rate going to 0Kbps as the buffer on the player application topped off.

 

 

I have found out that if on NAS(PC set up for this purpose) is running something else for example low speed download from website there is sound degradation. This is no problem lesson learned. Nothing will run on NAS during my listening time. That said I wonder if more speed and better “ping” will improve sound quality even more?

[plissken]

I have found out that if on NAS(PC set up for this purpose) is running something else for example low speed download from website there is sound degradation. This is no problem lesson learned. Nothing will run on NAS during my listening time. That said I wonder if more speed and better “ping” will improve sound quality even more?

 

The take away is that you aren't streaming off the wifi in real-time:

 

 

I would have to be boots on the ground to hear what you are referring to. As long as the NAS has free resources to serve up data faster than the local buffer requires you should be good to go. But I would want to know more about how you are doing things...

 

The other question is what is your current, consistent, ping rate to your NAS?

[blownsi]

Wifi in general has the potential to sound better than wired connections due to electrical isolation.

 

While the isolation is true, you are also adding further steps to the delivery process and introducing a whole other type of interference through the radio waves of wifi. If you talk to a networking guru they will tell you that on most/all routers the hardwired outputs take precedence over all wifi. To take it one step further, they take precedence in order by number. So taking the isolation out of the equation, the number one ethernet port is your best bet for sound quality. As with everything in audio though, trust your ears.

[Maldur]

Wifi in general has the potential to sound better than wired connections due to electrical isolation.

 

In reality, wired LAN is also galvanically isolated via pulse transformer. Every LAN port, no matter what speed and what connecting type is used. Typical solution - http://en.tdk.eu/blob/1123652/2/figure1-en-PreviewPictureData.png

[plissken]

In reality, wired LAN is also galvanically isolated via pulse transformer. Every LAN port, no matter what speed and what connecting type is used. Typical solution like that - http://en.tdk.eu/blob/1123652/2/figure1-en-PreviewPictureData.png

 

No doubt. I've pointed that out myself. You have some people that simply won't believe it's not going to have an audible effect.

 

Pick and choose your battles

[plissken]

While the isolation is true, you are also adding further steps to the delivery process and introducing a whole other type of interference through the radio waves of wifi. If you talk to a networking guru they will tell you that on most/all routers the hardwired outputs take precedence over all wifi. To take it one step further, they take precedence in order by number. So taking the isolation out of the equation, the number one ethernet port is your best bet for sound quality. As with everything in audio though, trust your ears.

 

No that's not true. Port 1 on a router or switch doesn't have any precedence over port 4 or port 48.

 

I have 200 ports of Cisco Catalyst 3750 POE sitting right next to two of my 3600's.

 

You are either layer 2 *unmanaged, or layer 3 *managed. Layer 3 is managed how ever you see fit. I can QOS, I can VLAN, I can do R-VLAN's, Trunks etc....

 

Wireless is minimally more complex. RFI won't show up as noise, it will show up as no connectivity in a lot of instances.

 

How can Wifi work on a University Campus then?

[tranz]

And checkout the optical LAN thread for another option to isolate.

 

I use a wifi bridge so that I can have the noisy NAS in another room and so that the switching power supply is not on the same loop as my audio gear. The optical LAN provides buffering and isolation that was noticable for me.

[DavidL]

In reality, wired LAN is also galvanically isolated via pulse transformer. Every LAN port, no matter what speed and what connecting type is used. Typical solution - http://en.tdk.eu/blob/1123652/2/figure1-en-PreviewPictureData.png

I checked with a couple of manufacturers and yes Sonore and Naim use isolation via pulse transformers, however adding a wire>optical cable>wire section to the ethernet immediately upstream of their renderers produced a noticeable improvement in SQ.

[plissken]

I checked with a couple of manufacturers and yes Sonore and Naim use isolation via pulse transformers, however adding a wire>optical cable>wire section to the ethernet immediately upstream of their renderers produced a noticeable improvement in SQ.

 

Makes one wonder that at the price point a lot of these type of products command they don't make an option for straight up fiber.

 

I have a hard time believing that they are so willing to compromise the SQ of such a device.

[mentt]

Thank you for all your responses. With my gear in my Hifi system there is no doubt that if all is connected via Wifi it sounds noticeably better than wired connection. Did somebody A/B tested with “regular” Wifi Router and “better” Wifi router? Or can somebody just comment on their experience with Wifi router upgrade? Technical theory is interesting, but actual opinions based on listening experience is what I am looking for.

[blownsi]

No that's not true. Port 1 on a router or switch doesn't have any precedence over port 4 or port 48.

 

I have 200 ports of Cisco Catalyst 3750 POE sitting right next to two of my 3600's.

 

You are either layer 2 *unmanaged, or layer 3 *managed. Layer 3 is managed how ever you see fit. I can QOS, I can VLAN, I can do R-VLAN's, Trunks etc....

 

Wireless is minimally more complex. RFI won't show up as noise, it will show up as no connectivity in a lot of instances.

 

How can Wifi work on a University Campus then?

 

You have quite a bit more control with that Cisco than your average free from the the ISP router. If you go into my router's config page (att uverse) you can easily see the list of connectivity preference which I cannot change btw.

 

I'm not sure I understand your campus reference but having 1000 people on the same wifi doesn't have anything to do with whether the hardwired connections sound better than the wifi.

 

As for whether or not wifi is better than wired I guess YMMV. I have tried 3 different routers over the past 5 years and on every single one of them running a cable from the number 1 port makes an audible improvement over wifi. This can be heard on a SBT as well as both my CAPSv3 and Mac Mini. Whether this is due to RFI or the router itself I have no idea. What I do know is that wifi is taking an existing signal and converting it to radio waves, then a receiving device must decode it. This process opens the door for issues.

[yincr]

Hi Mentt, your experience is very interesting. Could you describe your system?, Do you have a WiFi network just for audio?.

[mentt]

Hi Mentt, your experience is very interesting. Could you describe your system?, Do you have a WiFi network just for audio?.

 

 

Yes, Wifi network is only for audio. Router D‑Link DIR‑605L , NAS Dell T3610 computer with TP-LINK TL-WN722N Wifi card, Aries streamer

[plissken]

You have quite a bit more control with that Cisco than your average free from the the ISP router. If you go into my router's config page (att uverse) you can easily see the list of connectivity preference which I cannot change btw.

 

I'm not sure I understand your campus reference but having 1000 people on the same wifi doesn't have anything to do with whether the hardwired connections sound better than the wifi.

 

As for whether or not wifi is better than wired I guess YMMV. I have tried 3 different routers over the past 5 years and on every single one of them running a cable from the number 1 port makes an audible improvement over wifi. This can be heard on a SBT as well as both my CAPSv3 and Mac Mini. Whether this is due to RFI or the router itself I have no idea. What I do know is that wifi is taking an existing signal and converting it to radio waves, then a receiving device must decode it. This process opens the door for issues.

 

Then you have an odd unit from your ISP. In a typical switch all ports are equal. They are simply numbered to it easier for us humans to keep things straight.

 

My recommendation, repeatedly, has been to get a dedicated AP or wireless router configured as an AP on it's own channel and SSID. Go to deal news dot com and any given week you can pick up an N router for peanuts.

 

Even just medium signaled N is 300-500% more than enough bandwidth for 24/192. 16/44.1? now we are bumping into the 1500% range.

[master]

I have gone this route a while ago, initially with Sonos, but now with multiple Chromecast Audio setups.

 

The audio quality is top notch (or in other words 100% dependent on the quality of the DAC if you are using Chromecast Audio with digital output). The ease and convenience of running a centralized music server with the ability to play any track or album in any room takes wireless streaming to an entirely different league.

 

The argument that too many connected Wi-Fi devices may cause disruption in quality or QOS is moot IMHO simply because audio files take so much little bandwidth and that is even for FLAC rips, but even otherwise easily overcome with moving audio streaming to a 5 GHz AC network. All the latest routers, android smartphones, and even the Google Chromecast Audio come with it.

 

OP: I have used multiple routers as well as streaming devices and have never found throughput to be an issue, and neither has quality improved or degraded when trying different devices. That said I have an AC network at home, but I do not see why older routers of even N150 or N300 should have any issues whatsoever.

 

I have even streamed 1080p as well as 4K content across my local network without any issues, audio hardly takes any bandwidth on the local network.

[mentt]

I have gone this route a while ago, initially with Sonos, but now with multiple Chromecast Audio setups.

 

The audio quality is top notch (or in other words 100% dependent on the quality of the DAC if you are using Chromecast Audio with digital output). The ease and convenience of running a centralized music server with the ability to play any track or album in any room takes wireless streaming to an entirely different league.

 

The argument that too many connected Wi-Fi devices may cause disruption in quality or QOS is moot IMHO simply because audio files take so much little bandwidth and that is even for FLAC rips, but even otherwise easily overcome with moving audio streaming to a 5 GHz AC network. All the latest routers, android smartphones, and even the Google Chromecast Audio come with it.

 

OP: I have used multiple routers as well as streaming devices and have never found throughput to be an issue, and neither has quality improved or degraded when trying different devices. That said I have an AC network at home, but I do not see why older routers of even N150 or N300 should have any issues whatsoever.

 

I have even streamed 1080p as well as 4K content across my local network without any issues, audio hardly takes any bandwidth on the local network.

 

 

I have also no issues with my current Wifi set up. No interruptions ext. One think I have notice is that if NAS is for example downloading some file from website. Sound of the system is not as good. Less musical, not as hard hitting bass, less clarity … So “performance” of the Wifi seems to matter …

[master]

I have also no issues with my current Wifi set up. No interruptions ext. One think I have notice is that if NAS is for example downloading some file from website. Sound of the system is not as good. Less musical, not as hard hitting bass, less clarity … So “performance” of the Wifi seems to matter …

 

Could be multiple things at play here, and not necessarily Wi-Fi related.

 

I have a high spec system - i7, 32 GB RAM, SSD, as well as an AC tri-band network, and have never faced any issues or drop in quality even when doing video encoding. Likewise, no issues when playing off of an external NAS, that does not do anything else.

 

Obviously my PC is an overkill and not for everyone, but it could be a number of things system or NAS related, and not necessarily related to the Wi-Fi. Then again it could be true for your particular situation, hard to say without getting my hands on it and testing it.

 

My personal experience has been no issues whatsoever and I run a very demanding PC/HTPC for gaming as well as movies with the use of software like madVR and SVP that pushes the envelope for both GPU and CPU. I know for a fact that even when I am watching movies or streaming via Netflix my wife will still be accessing the PC and listening to music in another room. My experience has been no drop in audio quality with Wi-Fi streaming and multitasking.

 

PS: You could try swapping or borrowing a router and keeping the NAS in play and see if there is still a drop in audio quality with a change in the router.

[plissken]

Master and I are trying to make the point that you may have something else going on if what you say is accurate.

 

You can currently get a D-Link AC1200 router for $40... Give it a shot and make it a dedicated AP for just the music playback.

[The Computer Audiophile]

In reality, wired LAN is also galvanically isolated via pulse transformer. Every LAN port, no matter what speed and what connecting type is used. Typical solution - http://en.tdk.eu/blob/1123652/2/figure1-en-PreviewPictureData.png

Isolated, but not completely isolated. A lightning strike will travel an Ethernet cable and ruin anything attached to it.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi All, I am using my streamer only via Wifi, NAS is also connected only via Wifi. Reason? It sounds better compare to wired connection. My question is: As I have only regular Wifi router, will better router for example Asus RT-AC68U Dual-band Wireless-AC1900 Gigabit Router improve the sound even more? There is no problem with the signal strength . Wifi router is in the same room with my Hifi gear so signal strength is on maximum(full bars). I can also upgrade my NAS with something like this ASUS PCE-AC68 . Will this all improve sound of my Hifi system?

In my experience you have a higher chance of hurting the sound by making a change to a newer router simply because of more radio frequency interference with a dual band router or router with higher power.The interference has nothing to do with the data signal, but may effect your analog components. I say MAY because it's not likely.

 

I wouldn't worry about a router change if you're looking for change in sound quality.

[blownsi]

My recommendation, repeatedly, has been to get a dedicated AP or wireless router configured as an AP on it's own channel and SSID. Go to deal news dot com and any given week you can pick up an N router for peanuts.

.

 

I actually have my old AC router from before we went to Uverse, will give it a try someday with it being only for audio and compare the results to the current ethernet setup.

[plissken]

Isolated, but not completely isolated. A lightning strike will travel an Ethernet cable and ruin anything attached to it.

 

The magnetics package is meant for electrical isolation as far as a proper signal is concerned. It's not meant for huge surge isolation.

 

It is still isolated.

 

You pump enough voltage through anything and even if you had a foot of separation it can still make the jump.

[tgb]

hi

people who say that rj45 is fine with audio are wrong.

in theory they are right, but not in practice.

 

if you have any streamer, insert an optical bridge between it and your router and you will listen to the nice and big difference.

Change your rj45 based network and switches, and use an switch with SFP ports and connect your devices to it using FMCs, and then you will have a even better SQ than a simple optical bridge.

 

i don't talk about theory, this is the conclusions of testing. See the 2 threads about this.

it sounds better through optical fiber.

A lot of people implemented an optical bridge and 100% say it brings a lot, and it is far more efficient than galvanic isolators.

A lot of people, thus all kind of network architecture and quality of power supply. Thus copper (and wifi) are supposed to be fair enough against EMI RDI but a change to optical network shows that they are not.

Simple as that.

Rgds