Article: Schiit Audio Yggdrasil Multibit DAC Review

[ednaz]

I had forgotten about that. I do own Muddy Waters Folk Singer on MFSL gold CD. It's fantastic! How about Belafonte returns to Carnegie Hall? That MFSL reissue is a gem, too.

 

This is one of the other reissues that's eerily, palpably live sounding. I'm going to go look up MFSL and see whether they're behind the short list of music that absolutely sparkles through my current system. If that "character" (for lack of a better term) is strongly related to the ADC chip and technical approach that MFSL uses for digitization, I'd bet that it works well on the other end of digitization.

 

Chris' review, and this discussion, have done a pretty good job of coming up with comparisons and connections in this world where you can't go do a listen to gear locally.

[ednaz]

OK, three questions are afoot and mostly answered. By all accounts the Yggy sounds fantastic and seems unbeatable for the price.

 

1) Air. The Yggy has air. Look at its measured noise, jitter, and distortion performance: the air *has* to be there. The thing is that the performers and instruments are more dynamic and compelling: they shade the air, so to speak. Shunyata gear does this too. In my opinion, vinyl actually creates artificial air in addition to the air it delivers unmolested. My theory is that some sources, but especially very dynamic sources with overshoot can create virtual sounds. These can represent the same virtual sources that we perceive in live music spaces, or added ones. Think of a horde of ghosts snapping their fingers somewhere on the soundstage, often between you and a singer. That's the "air" we sense. Some (I think most) of them arise from accurate reproduction, but some are created by distortion, especially in tube circuits and phono playback. .

 

The "horde of ghosts snapping their fingers" is one of the best analogies for "air" I've heard. I performed live for a long time, both music (as a low brass player, in everything from orchestras to small jazz combos, including big bands and rock bands) and as an actor, both professionally. A whole lot of components and systems that people rave about, and that get great reviews, don't touch that something inside me that's the reason I listen to music. They sound pretty, accurate, etc, but dry.

 

Music grabs me the most when it sounds like it did when I performed, and other than for heavily amplified rock, the venue's interaction with the performance is a huge part of the sound. Studios work very hard to capture music without any of that interaction, and then "wet it up" a bit with little bits of reverb and other DSP. With a few exceptions, studio albums either sound too dry to me, or sound artificial. I can also pretty accurately ID whether a live album came off the soundboard - has that close-miked quality to it - or was recorded in a way that captured the room. Even heavily amplified rock can have that realism - the Ville Emard Blues Band album, which had dozens of recording mic's on stage, is a spectacular example.

 

Telling that my speaker and room choices are all about putting some ambience back. Gradient Revolution speakers (di-pole), and in the room where my GoldenEar speakers live, I've adjusted the sound damping in the room until it feels like I'm in the music instead of in front of it. Even with that, many DACs sounded flatter, and made music sound recorded, not performed.

 

I listened to quite a few DACs before settling on my Exasound e22. It seemed to bring back the sound of the venue best of what I heard, although as a downside it also does expose the studio trickery more than most. Whether that information is there on the masters and my DAC (and it seems the Yggy) frees it up, or whether it's shading a little of that information (that was washed out on the master), is a very good question.

 

I want to upgrade my two other DACs, an expensive proposition. I wonder if the live-ness that people seem to associate with the Yggy sound is there in the lower cost multi-bit?

[manisandher]

Based on this thread, I’ve borrowed a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC from the local distributor. I thought I'd share my experience with the DAC, as people might be interested in hearing a very different opinion to the ones in previous posts.

 

On first listening, there’s a freshness, a liveness, a vibrancy to the sound that really draws you in. But after extended listening I started finding it fatiguing - too sibilant and too lean and not enough body and weight to instruments for my liking.

 

I wanted to understand why I was hearing what I was. I'm very familiar with and have a strong preference for R2R DACs. Looking at the measurements posted on Head-fi, I couldn't stop thinking about this 1kHz @ -90dBfs measurement:

 

 

There is clearly something VERY wrong with this implementation. This looks suspiciously like glitching energy - NOT GOOD! - and would certainly explain why I'm hearing what I am. I'm no technical expert though and would be happy to be proved wrong.

 

Any takers?

 

Mani.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Based on this thread, I’ve borrowed a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC from the local distributor. I thought I'd share my experience with the DAC, as people might be interested in hearing a very different opinion to the ones in previous posts.

 

On first listening, there’s a freshness, a liveness, a vibrancy to the sound that really draws you in. But after extended listening I started finding it fatiguing - too sibilant and too lean and not enough body and weight to instruments for my liking.

 

I wanted to understand why I was hearing what I was. I'm very familiar with and have a strong preference for R2R DACs. Looking at the measurements posted on Head-fi, I couldn't stop thinking about this 1kHz @ -90dBfs measurement:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25161[/ATTACH]

 

There is clearly something VERY wrong with this implementation. This looks suspiciously like glitching energy - NOT GOOD! - and would certainly explain why I'm hearing what I am. I'm no technical expert though and would be happy to be proved wrong.

 

Any takers?

 

Mani.

Very interesting Mani. Do you have a link to the Head-Fi measurements?

[manisandher]

Hi Chris, we're discussing this here: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/schiit-yggdrasil-best-digital-analogue-converter-available-24351/index23.html.

 

Jud has linked to the Head-fi measurements there.

 

Mani.

[beerandmusic]

IMHO, the Yggy was not just plain better. In fact, I returned my Yggy within the 15 day return for refund - a minor handling costs. I must say the customer service with Schiit audio is excellent, among the best I've experienced.

If I had the extra money, I would keep a Yggy around for the great sound it offers. Instead, I returned it and am now left with a Berkeley Alpha 2, which I think bests the Yggy overall, IMHO. There is so much equipment interplay involved that one really needs to listen to multiple DACs in their system to find THEIR favorite. Overall, no I didn't think the Yggy was superior to the Ayre. I may be in the minority, but I love the Ayre and the presentation it offers. The Ayre of course offered DSD- the Yggy and Berkeley don't. But the Berkeley can drive an amp directly, which Ayre and Yggy can't One needs to use the Dac that fits into their system.

BTW, I did feel the Yggy sounded much better running it into the Berkeley Alpha USB interface, a point Chris made in a discussion on this post. As always, YMMV, and everyone needs to listen for themselves, as I don't profess to have golden ears. I do go to live music when possible, so I do know what live music sounds like. Hope this helps, but probably muddies the water more

 

why can't the yggy feed an amp directly? is that true with all schiit products?

[guerph]

I recently returned my Peachtree nova220se. I was pleased with sound (of this all in one) overall but had some static when adjusting volume and decided to start looking at separates. I have a set of PMC twenty.22 standmounts. I'm strongly considering getting the Yggy and Ragnarok. Has anyone here had experience with this pairing in a loudspeaker config? Most of the reviews I read are from headphone setups.

[baldr]

Based on this thread, I’ve borrowed a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC from the local distributor. I thought I'd share my experience with the DAC, as people might be interested in hearing a very different opinion to the ones in previous posts.

 

On first listening, there’s a freshness, a liveness, a vibrancy to the sound that really draws you in. But after extended listening I started finding it fatiguing - too sibilant and too lean and not enough body and weight to instruments for my liking.

 

I wanted to understand why I was hearing what I was. I'm very familiar with and have a strong preference for R2R DACs. Looking at the measurements posted on Head-fi, I couldn't stop thinking about this 1kHz @ -90dBfs measurement:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25161[/ATTACH]

 

There is clearly something VERY wrong with this implementation. This looks suspiciously like glitching energy - NOT GOOD! - and would certainly explain why I'm hearing what I am. I'm no technical expert though and would be happy to be proved wrong.

 

Any takers?

 

Mani.

 

First allow me to congratulate manisandher for his not merely golden, but platinum ears. The ability to hear an artifact with an amplitude at least 20db below the level of an already 90 db down sine wave I find stunning. He does correctly identify the artifact as glitch energy. That is less than 4 MICROVOLTS of RMS glitch voltage. I must, however, disagree with his quantitative judgement -NOT GOOD-. Perhaps some readers of this thread have not seen many of them – a variety of them should be compared to keep the Yggy's in context. They typically are difficult to even recognize as sine waves. Perhaps he can post a -90db sine wave graphic from any other DAC which he prefers? He also seems to be unfamiliar with the other measurements posted on that thread which correctly identify the Yggy as in there with the author's best measuring DACs ever.

 

 

The -90db performance is the result of choices I made with specified DACs, S/H artifacts, analog circuits, sonic performance, and digital filters. I am proud of that performance in the context of my competition.

 

 

It is true that the AD5791 DAC in the Yggy is not designed for audio applications. They were designed for weapons and medical instrumentation, applications which require extreme accuracy. There is nothing inherently superior about a DAC designed for audio except that it is less expensive and designed for a mass market.

 

4 microvolts of glitch is excessive?? Please.

[manisandher]

Hey Mike, 'golden ears' here... sorry, 'platinum ears'! I can post the -90dB performance of my reference DAC. The THD+N too. I'm more than happy to do this but will warn you now that they'll make the Yggy look mediocre. Perhaps you'd prefer them via a PM instead? Let me know...

 

Mani.

[johndean]

Hey Mike, 'golden ears' here... sorry, 'platinum ears'! I can post the -90dB performance of my reference DAC. The THD+N too. I'm more than happy to do this but will warn you now that they'll make the Yggy look mediocre. Perhaps you'd prefer them via a PM instead? Let me know...

 

Mani.

 

Well post them ! And you keep refusing to say what your reference Dac is .

[firedog]

Well post them ! And you keep refusing to say what your reference Dac is .

 

I think it just got posted. Mani is well known here, which I quess you don't know as a newish member. He's written extensively about his reference DACs over the years. I''m sure he'll tell you, but you should have already guessed.

[johndean]

I think it just got posted. Mani is well known here, which I quess you don't know as a newish member. He's written extensively about his reference DACs over the years. I''m sure he'll tell you, but you should have already guessed.

 

Don't see it .

[manisandher]

First allow me to congratulate manisandher for his not merely golden, but platinum ears. The ability to hear an artifact with an amplitude at least 20db below the level of an already 90 db down sine wave I find stunning. He does correctly identify the artifact as glitch energy.

 

Seems I'm not the only one with platinum ears... :-(

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/schiit-yggdrasil-best-digital-analogue-converter-available-24351/index55.html

 

But this shouldn't be a surprise:

 

"To be honest, I'm genuinely surprised this makes a good audio DAC. It's terribly expensive and I always assumed the code-change-dependent glitch energy would make THD unacceptable to audio buffs."

- AD5791 chip (as used in Yggy) designer

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

Perhaps [Mani] can post a -90db sine wave graphic from any other DAC which he prefers?

 

OK. Here's the -90dB sine wave graphic for my DAC, the Phasure NOS1a:

 

 

It performs quite a bit better. Yggy (top) vs. Phasure NOS1a (bottom):

 

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

The PCM1704 is hardly an obvious choice, it is only good to 96KHz sampling rates…

 

What a load of bollocks! The PCM1704 is good for 768kHz, it's just that early implementations couldn't utilize this.

 

The 1704 data sheet was written in the days of DVD. If you read further down to how they performed the THD+N measurements, you will see that they fed the chip with a 768kHz signal.

 

… [the 1704] sounds like absolute ass compared to its grand-predecessor, the PCM63.

 

OK, let’s see!

 

The sound of an AD5791 based DAC (Schiit Yggy):

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0...3FfY1c4WW9FQVk

 

The sound of a PCM1704 based DAC (Phasure NOS1a):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0...l9MbWIyaXE4NVk

 

So what does that make the AD5791? An absolute lightweight wimp, maybe?

 

Mani.

[sundar_amn]

I read most of the comments and understood 3 or more things about yggdrasil

 

1) AES input is the best

2) XLR output is the best

3) some people say there is "air" and some say "not lot of air"

4) Mani and Mike are debating some design implementation and what i incurred is Mani says its not a good implementation and Mike says its the best

 

well, i do NOT have AES in my source and planning to use optical digital, i do NOT have XLR in my LM219 tube amp(its a beast amp anyway) and planning to use RCA.

 

irrespective of all these above, i ordered the yggdrasil yesterday. I thought the best way to understand all this is to listen to it first.

i am currently using a Bel canto DAC (C5i) and i am having high expectations on Yggdrasil based on all glowing reviews and feedback

 

i originally was debating myself between Berekely alpa dac 2 (not the reference) or the PS audio DSD.. i was planning to get one of them from used market for $3000-$3500 but made up my mind to listen to yggdrasil first based on all comments, reviews etc,.. sure i am going to loose some $300+ if i dont like it but i dont have a choice..

 

will post my experience once i get it and give it to a listen. Thank you all.

if you have any new feedback please post them..

[The Computer Audiophile]

I read most of the comments and understood 3 or more things about yggdrasil

 

1) AES input is the best

2) XLR output is the best

3) some people say there is "air" and some say "not lot of air"

4) Mani and Mike are debating some design implementation and what i incurred is Mani says its not a good implementation and Mike says its the best

 

well, i do NOT have AES in my source and planning to use optical digital, i do NOT have XLR in my LM219 tube amp(its a beast amp anyway) and planning to use RCA.

 

irrespective of all these above, i ordered the yggdrasil yesterday. I thought the best way to understand all this is to listen to it first.

i am currently using a Bel canto DAC (C5i) and i am having high expectations on Yggdrasil based on all glowing reviews and feedback

 

i originally was debating myself between Berekely alpa dac 2 (not the reference) or the PS audio DSD.. i was planning to get one of them from used market for $3000-$3500 but made up my mind to listen to yggdrasil first based on all comments, reviews etc,.. sure i am going to loose some $300+ if i dont like it but i dont have a choice..

 

will post my experience once i get it and give it to a listen. Thank you all.

if you have any new feedback please post them..

Hi sundar_amn - Excellent. Looking forward to hearing about your experience.

[The Limey]

Requesting if there is anyone in the central Ohio area that could demo a Yggy?

 

First post BTW long time lurker

[Hailey]

Chris,

Well written review and I'm sure the Yggdrasil sounds every bit as good as you say it does but I do have a few comments to make.

In the very first paragraph you state that $2,300 is inexpensive for a stand alone DAC? In a world where reasonably good sounding DAC's are on chips costing peanuts and included inside any number of well reviewed components I find it hard to call $2,300 an inexpensive DAC.

 

That comes to my second criticism from the same sentence.

"That's a new-in-box component with a fifteen day return policy and a five year warranty"

I would say that the industry standard for direct sales components today is a 30 day return policy,

Emotiva and Hsu come off the top of my head. For such an expensive product I would think that they could afford a longer preview, total satisfaction guaranteed, return period than 15 days.

 

Could not agree more re: the return policy. And they charge a restocking fee.

 

My third criticism would involve the all-too-common (mis)use of the word "simplistic" (in this case, used to describe the case design) when the author appears to mean "simple."

 

Other than that, very compelling review.

[pauljvl]

One thing I wanted to mention , my friend has the Gungnir multibit which uses the same coupling caps Wima as the Yaggs . We have found the AM transformers capactors are superior in every way sonicly

While still warm like the Wima resolution is improved across the board .his brother just replaced yhe 12

In the Yaggs with exactly the same result . Several of us wrote to Schiit offered to send the capaciyors in

Bought at Parts Connecxion ,they totally ignored the several emails we sent when I was getting my Multibit

Sent in yo be done, even hifi tunjng fuses which improve resolution they will not put in. Very strange ?

The AM trans capacitors are made in Japan far more precise and musical then Wima . Email Chris Johnson

The owner ,tech at Parts Connecxion he will confirm . Please send emails to Schiit ,for when they have new upgrades they may not want to upgrade. If I am paying why should they care ,and especially if it makes their unit sound better ? I was told they have 1,000s of wimps. But if I am sending in my own parts

And paying for labor to not void warranty, Schiit should consider this .

[thotdoc]

On 11/3/2015 at 2:59 PM, BradleyP said:

What an informative review! Nice job.

 

If this DAC gets it "right," then it's ultimately getting the performance only half right. The other half of the equation is the ADC in the studio. If all of the pre and post ringing and inaccuracy/affectation is an issue in a DAC, then why not in the ADC? Maybe Schiit needs to countenance a move into the pro audio space.

 

Last weekend, I sat in a moderate size room with a pianist and a cellist. I did not detect "air," a 30-foot-wide soundstage, slam, bloom, sizzle, or anything of the audiophile sort, just a moving performance. In comparison to the best recordings played back on a competent rig, that performance sounded downright dull in comparison at first, but ultimately it wasn't. I think realism is a harder sell than surrealism.

I've often experienced the same phenomenon: live music does not have "air". But soundstage is a reproduction of the area covered by the mikes and live music can have slam and bloom. That said, I think the basic idea is true that we often experience the reproduction of music with heightened 'drama' many times.

[fas42]

Quote

Last weekend, I sat in a moderate size room with a pianist and a cellist. I did not detect "air," a 30-foot-wide soundstage, slam, bloom, sizzle, or anything of the audiophile sort, just a moving performance. In comparison to the best recordings played back on a competent rig, that performance sounded downright dull in comparison at first, but ultimately it wasn't. I think realism is a harder sell than surrealism.

 

Quote

I've often experienced the same phenomenon: live music does not have "air". But soundstage is a reproduction of the area covered by the mikes and live music can have slam and bloom. That said, I think the basic idea is true that we often experience the reproduction of music with heightened 'drama' many times.

 

The hardest people to impress with convincing sound are, audiophiles, ! They want lots of boom and sizzle, a fireworks display!! And that has to happen with really, really boring recordings - which means that when you play a recording with loads of recorded grunt, that which was actually happening in the studio, etc - then this sounds like an overloaded mess!

 

Boring recordings with lot and lots of makeup added in the replay - it's a strange world that many audio enthusiasts occupy ... .

[thotdoc]

On 11/3/2015 at 2:59 PM, BradleyP said:

 

What happened to the thread? Several interesting back and forth going on.