Optical Network Configurations

[Jud]

I have a question that's pretty prosaic when measured against discussions of switches at CERN, but still....

 

I have the house "wired" with fiber optic cabling (multimode), but currently it's just sitting in the walls not being used.  I'd like to change over from my current copper Ethernet (plus wireless routers) to fiber optic Ethernet (plus wireless routers), hopefully without spending a fortune.

 

Current setup: Coax cable from the ISP to a junction box in the garage that is now connected to more coax, which runs to the wall behind the main audio/video setup in the living room. There it's connected to a cable modem ( https://www.motorola.com/us/mb8600/p ), and from there to one of my wireless mesh Wi-Fi 6 routers ( https://www.asus.com/networking-iot-servers/whole-home-mesh-wifi-system/zenwifi-wifi-systems/asus-zenwifi-ax-xt8-/ ) .  The router also has RJ45 ports, and one of these is connected to a microRendu that outputs USB to my DAC.  A second wireless mesh Wi-Fi 6 router is in my office, with an RJ45 port connected to my desktop computer, which runs the software that transmits to the microRendu.

 

The junction box in the garage with the coax also has all the fiber optic cabling running into it from the 2 or 3 rooms I want to serve with fiber optic Ethernet.  Those would be the living room for the main audio/video setup; the office for the desktop; and I may want it for the master bedroom for the Roku/TV setup there.

 

Wondering if something like this would work, or if it would be a horrible kludge: Connecting the coax in the garage to the cable modem, copper Ethernet to one of the routers moved from the office to the garage, copper Ethernet to a fiber optic switch like this ( https://www.fastcabling.com/product/8-port-fiber-optic-sfp-switch/ ), fiber optic cabling to one of these ( https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-Ethernet-Converter-Supporting-MC220L/dp/B003CFATL0/ref=asc_df_B003CFATL0/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309833041189&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3608192458132892954&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030428&hvtargid=pla-405660645728&psc=1 ) in each of the 2 or 3 rooms mentioned above.

 

I'd consider getting a third Wi-Fi 6 mesh router for the office, but those guys are expensive, so I'll probably try it without first.

 

Thoughts? Is this workable?

[Jud]

Thanks @ericuco and @jabbr.  Yes, I'm planning to move the cable modem to the garage junction box, where the input will be the ISP coax and the output will be copper Ethernet to the ASUS Wi-Fi 6 router. From there I plan to run copper Ethernet to a converter/switch (thanks to both of you for the suggestion of the Mikrotik). I'll use either 2 or 3 of the Mikrotik optical outputs to feed fiber from the garage junction box to the living room A/V, the desktop in my office, and perhaps the Roku Ultra in the master bedroom, converting to copper at each endpoint with the TP-Link.

 

@ericuco, the second ASUS router in the living room will take care of all the connectivity I need between high speed Wi-Fi and 3 copper Ethernet outputs, without the need to buy another Mikrotik. For the moment at least, I don't need switches in the office or master bedroom; the desktop and Roku Ultra are the only wired connections I feel are priorities in those rooms, and Wi-Fi can take care of the rest.

[Jud]

16 minutes ago, ericuco said:

 

My concern is hooking the mR to a Wifi device like the ASUS router. Just seems like an opportunity to introduce noise into the system just prior to your audio system. I don't have any proof of this, just doesn't seem like an ideal situation IMHO.

 

I see you have an EtherREGEN? Why not connect the first Mikrotik switch to that (ER) using fiber port on 'A' side along with your other (copper) Ethernet connections, then use 'B' side for mR.

 

That's my 2 cents.

 

EDIT: how do you have the ER connected to the mR? Do you use ‘A’ or ‘B’ side? Isn’t ‘B’ side 100 Mbps?

 

The A/V system is served by a separate circuit from the rest of the house, and it runs through an isolation transformer.

 

On the Ethernet side, the microRendu is connected to the EtherRegen. On the USB side, it's connected to an Iso Regen, which in turn feeds the DAC.

[Jud]

Dumb question: Will an SFP module fit and work correctly in an SFP+ slot?

[Jud]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

 

By spec SFP+ is supposed to be backwards compatible with SFP. I use 1/10gbe transceivers interchangeably all the time.

 

Got transceivers spec'd as dual rate, so if my current 1 gigabit speed goes to 10 at some point I'm good. (I understand with backwards compatibility any SFP+ transceiver ought to do this, but may as well get something explicitly spec'd to work at both speeds.)

[Jud]

1 hour ago, ericuco said:

As has been mentioned, SFP, dual rate SFP and SPF+ modules will fit; however, will they work is a crap shoot.

 

For instance, I have an Intel dual rate module. If I install it in my music server (Intel X520 NIC) or my fitlet2 (Intel based), I can connect them to my Mikrotik 10 Gbe switch using Finisar 1 Gbe modules. However, if I simply switch the modules around (e.g. dual rate in Mikrotik) then it does not work. I tried to force Mikrotik to run at 1 Gbe but still would not work.

 

Understood. If that proves to be true here I may have to replace the Mikrotik with a switch that uses SFP ports. (Edit - unless I can find an inexpensive FMC that uses SFP+.)

[Jud]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

Mikrotik brands its own SFP(+) modules. The switch typically has a matrix of SFP(+)  modules listed that are known to work.

IIRC I had to use a Mikrotik RJ-45 SFP module when making a copper connection.

 

Copper connection isn't a worry, since the Mikrotik switch I'm using has provision for that.

 

At this point the remaining uncertainties are:

 

(1) Will the dual rate transceivers I bought (from FS.com - edit: here are the transceivers - https://www.fs.com/products/29899.html ) work with both the Mikrotik switch ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07LFKGP1L/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ) and the 10GTek FMCs ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZ7HXMR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ) I'm planning to use them with?

 

(2) Will the Mikrotik and the 10GTeks play nicely with each other at either end of the optical fiber/transceiver connections? 

[Jud]

14 hours ago, jabbr said:

Im not entirely sure why/where you are using the FMC. If it’s working, it should work. If the fs.com SFP(+) works, great. If it doesn’t then get a Finisar 1Gbe SFP as these work in my setup. 

 

Switch will be in the garage at one end of the optical fiber connections.  I need a way to convert the optical fiber at the other end to the copper the ASUS router and Roku Ultra use. Thus the FMCs.

 

(Edit: Two ASUS routers here in mesh configuration. One will be in the garage before the switch, the other in the living room connected to the microRendu via an EtherRegen.)

[Jud]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

You also mentioned a second router. To my understanding, no one is ever using more than one router in a network. Why would you pay extra money for second router?

 

https://www.pcmag.com/lists/best-mesh-wifi-systems?zmg_ads&gclid=CjwKCAjwyIKJBhBPEiwAu7zllyIs8mZJXe4od1SS5kI-2Gr51X0uucOPkWQSRYR_3yS86IWPyPn6ixoCJDMQAvD_BwE

[Jud]

Delete duplicate.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

 

I'm still not sure what you mean by before and after. If you have a router in the garage you can connect both ASUS and Mikrotik to the router, and use the router to route between the wireless network and the Mikrotik network. Maybe draw out what you are trying to do. If you need an additional copper connection to the Mikrotik, then use a SFP that does RJ-45. You *can* use an FMC but its just one more box and more complexity. If you are connecting your music to a microRendu which is copper, then unsure how much help fiberoptic will be in any case.

 

The ASUS in the garage *is* the router.  This will be the configuration at the junction box in the garage: ISP coax -> Motorola MB8600 modem ->Ethernet cable to ASUS mesh router ->Ethernet cable to Mikrotik switch -> optical cables to living room and master bedroom.

 

OK, so now we've got a signal on optical cables running to the living room and master bedroom. 

 

In the living room is the second ASUS mesh router.  It doesn't have provision for optical input, only copper. That's the reason for the FMC in the living room. 

 

In the master bedroom is a Roku Ultra, which likewise does not have provision for optical input, only copper.  That's the reason for the FMC in the master bedroom.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

Are you standardizing yourself on using the orange fiber cable ?

(I hope you understand why I’m asking). 

 

I have aqua OM4 optical cable running throughout the house.  It has just been sitting there not connected to anything.  I am now connecting it.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Also, it there a reason you like to change your present setup ? Isn’t it working well ?

 

Mesh wi-fi routers coordinate with each other using a "backhaul."  Right now that backhaul is running on wireless.  Putting an Ethernet connection between the two routers will allow them to use that as the backhaul, potentially providing increased wireless performance now that it will no longer be used for the backhaul traffic.

 

Second, though the nominal wi-fi 6 speed is well in excess of 1Gb/s, in practice with walls, distance, etc., I'm getting somewhere between 500-700Mb/s.  The Ethernet network may allow me to get something closer to the 1.2Gb/s nominal download speed I'm paying for.

 

Third, I'm sure we've all noticed anecdotally that wi-fi connections may be a little more finicky or less reliable than Ethernet.  My wi-fi is excellent, but on the very very rare occasions there is a glitch, it's irritating.  An Ethernet connection for the master bedroom TV will hopefully eliminate that.

 

Finally, utilizing the OM4 fiber should reasonably future-proof my setup.  OM4 is rated for 40 Gb/s, and I'm guessing it will be a little while until my ISP provides that.

[Jud]

5 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Your device is tri-band, so it used one 5Ghz band for wireless connections and the other for backhaul. You don't lose anything, in fact unless you use the 2.5Gbe connection you might be worse off.

 

The routers should now be able to use both 5GHz bands for Wi-Fi.

[Jud]

20 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Yeah sorry you were told that -- its literally true for the cable, but the 40Gbe QSFP modules don't come with LC-LC connectors ... which is why I put in single mode cables, that said 10be is probably good to go.

 

I was looking at single mode primarily, but Comcast Xfinity fiber at least currently is multimode and I didn't want any compatibility problems with their equipment.

[Jud]

42 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Aha! ok, can your garage router talk to the living room router via Wi-Fi ... that's how my mesh network works... but ok does the ASUS have a 2.5Gbe connection? Or 5Gbe? If it does then use the Mikrotik S+RJ10 SFP(+) modules to connect the Mikrotik switch in the garage and a second Mikrotik switch in the living room to the second ASUS ... that way you have a full 2.5 or 5 Gbe connection between the routers ... or use the FMC for a 1Gbe connection. Personally I'd run a 10Gbe connection to a second living room Mikrotik and then you have additional ports if/when you need them.

 

Consider, just consider an opticalModule as the FMC in your bedroom because that's directly feeding your music.

 

The ISP and modem are both 1.2Gb if I remember correctly, and I think the routers' Ethernet connections are something like 2.8Gb (or that could be the WiFi nominal limit, not completely certain as I sit here). So I'm currently limited to 1.2Gb anyway, and $16 FMCs are more appealing at that limit than a $130 switch. If the Mikrotik and FMCs don't play nice together, then I'd probably do an SFP switch at lower cost rather than two more Mikrotiks, and leave the speed upgrades to 10Gb to whenever Xfinity gets around to it.

 

The Optical Module and Optical Rendu are great products, but that's a decision for another time.

[Jud]

4 hours ago, R1200CL said:

But these guys isn’t your DHCP server. Meaning router.

They act as a slaves from your present router. Agree ?

Did I miss something?

 

You missed something. These are my present routers, and they handle DHCP just fine. The two routers communicate with each other to provide internal IP addresses and the most efficient Wi-Fi connections to all devices. (I have up to 29 devices connected via Ethernet or Wi-Fi simultaneously not counting the routers themselves, so having multiple routers coordinating is a good thing.)

[Jud]

3 hours ago, plissken said:

 

Mesh wifi are an AP that have enough CPU power to elect one as a Wireless LAN controller. They could also have a specialty built unit that have additional WAN port for L3 to your ISP. That would be a router with a WAP built in.

 

"Backhaul" is another term for the management vlan that they send any SA, SE, stats, beacon, and other types of traffic. It carries no data traffic. Can be totally L2 frames and most likely is.

 

Routing has the connotation that traffic is leaving a broadcast domain and making L3 hops to another destination.

 

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

That's not how I've traditionally seen the term used for WiFi home networks. I'm not saying your incorrect, but I mostly see the term backhaul used when discussing a data path from the AP to the rest of the network and why higher bandwidth or wired Ethernet backhauls are recommended. 

 

A review I read talked about increased Wi-Fi performance with a wired backhaul IIRC. But whether that happens or not, I'll be pleased to get the optical fiber connected.

[Jud]

54 minutes ago, ericuco said:

 

No idea about all of this. I am still a novice as well.

 

As the name implies, Flow Control has to do with sending and receiving data so that one device does not overload a connected device. Some of the settings change automatically by SwOS based on whatever the port is connected to.

 

Perhaps some of the more experienced networking guys can chime in.

 

Not experienced, but know full duplex means you can send and receive (for example, upload and download) simultaneously. You may have experienced half duplex phones, where if you talk it cuts off the incoming sound, or vice versa.

[Jud]

I think we've got the gist of this discussion (several times over!). 😉

[Jud]

For anyone curious about progress with my conversion to optical Ethernet: 

 

[Jud]

6 hours ago, plissken said:

Now I always double up the 10GBe in a LAG for redundancy however.

 

For the benefit of the ignorant (me), since I have double runs of fiber for redundancy and I see a LAG  setting on the Mikrotik, what is LAG?

[Jud]

2 hours ago, plissken said:

Lag is an acronym for link aggregate control. It's bundling two - eight physical connections and presenting it as one logical connection just in case you have one connection go down. When I had this work out for me it's typically when I've had an SFP module fail.

 

Thanks, makes sense. In my situation I'd be unlikely to use it because I'm probably connecting only 2 or 3 rooms. Might just keep a spare SFP around for that eventuality.

[Jud]

4 hours ago, plissken said:

 

If I'm able to play back with out the network cable what does any possible jitter that happened for the <2 seconds the entire album took to transfer have to do with it.

 

I'm curious about electrical noise. Are you able to play music if someone pulls the plug on the power supplies for your network gear?

[Jud]

48 minutes ago, plissken said:

Now you are bringing upsampling into this.

 

Surely you're aware there are lots of people who do this in audio, whether Chris brought it up or not.

 

I'm also not quite sure what you're arguing about. You seem at one and the same time to be saying 100Mbps is fine, to disdain 3000 people who say 100Mbps is fine, and to be saying more network overhead potential than 100Mbps can give you is desirable. Do you have a point, or do you just like to argue and talk about your network chops?