ULN-8 shootouts: Next!

[bdiament]

Finally got to compare the ULN-8 with a Berkeley the other evening.

My feelings? With the ULN-8 in other comparisons I've done, I've been here before:

I don't fully trust the comparison yet and am trying to see if something I did put the Berkeley at an unfair disadvantage.

 

I heard better extension, better definition of microdynamics, better low level definition, MUCH better focus on the space and a more open soundstage with the ULN-8.

We tried changing the filter setting on the Berkeley and that certainly made the differences appreciably smaller. But I still heard the same things I describe above.

 

The initial filter setting, which my guest, who brought the Berkeley, told me is the recommended one, sounded like there was a long slow roll-off at the top, which while quite pleasant, was not the "mic feed" sound I hear from the ULN-8 (strange to see that used in the marketing literature for the BADA, as it was one of the first things I said about the '8).

 

I wonder if this is an apodizing filter. ? If so, I believe many audiophiles (and audio writers) are jumping on the "no pre-ringing" bandwagon, without considering what is exchanged in order to achieve this.

 

 

Earlier, I said I've been here before because that is the feeling the ULN-8 continues to engender in all the comparisons I've engaged in so far.

It always makes me wonder how the "other", highly rated DAC might be at some disadvantage... or is perhaps a defective unit. But so far, it has always turned out to be a fair test and just another demonstration of the achievement that is the ULN-8.

 

We'll see. I hope to set up a "rematch", in an effort to give the BADA (and any other comer) every opportunity to best the '8... if it can.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[cfmsp]

 

Barry,

 

Thanks for sharing your comparison results.

 

I still haven't listened to the '8' yet. And since I didn't partake of the loyalty discount, I may not want to since $6k for a single component is out of my league.

 

Good to see you posting here.

Clay

 

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

Out of interest, how did you connect the Berkeley? And what other components did you use in the test?

 

Eloise

 

[bdiament]

Hi Clay,

 

Thank you for your kindness.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Eloise,

 

We listened to the Berkeley two different ways:

 

One way was with a recent vintage MacBook Pro running Amarra, feeding a Weiss DAC2 via Firewire and taking the AES out from the Weiss to the AES input of the Berkeley.

 

The other way was with the AES out from the ULN-8 feeding the AES input of the Berkeley.

 

The AES feed to the Berkeley was a Kubala Sosna AES cable.

All other cabling was by Nordost.

 

Monitoring was via my Magnepan 3.6s, augmented below 30 Hz by a pair of Outlaw LFM1-EX subs.

A photo of part of the system can be seen on the home page at

www.barrydiamentaudio.com and on the "Studio" page of the same site.

 

Source material was from various CDs and high res sources, including some HRx recordings by Keith Johnson and some of my own recordings. Having created the latter myself, I find these extremely informative in evaluating components, rooms and systems.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

Thankyou for that Barry ... I was just curious.

 

Eloise

 

[ted_b]

Did you try that setup, too?

 

[Andrew S.]

I am curious how you felt the ULN8 went against the Dac2 and also the Dac2 vs the Berkeley. I guess the answer would be not so well - the fellow is using a Berkeley!

Thanks for posting.

Cheers

A

 

[VincentH]

I'm also interested to see how the DAC of the ULN-8 compares to the Weiss DAC2 (sonically).

 

When reading the ULN-8 specs I was disappointed to see that the drivers are Mac only. the Weiss has a big plus there with Mac and Windows support.

 

[tmfidelis]

Respectively wondering if you had the time and resources to interface a Zalman PC using Sampitude 10 Master and an Alpha DAC in your comparisons. BTW, one of my Zalman computers uses 4 SLC SSD using hardware raid 0. Have you come to the conclusion the best sound from a Mac is via firewire and a MacBook, Weiss, Metric Halo, Sonic, or TC Electronics?

 

Which version of Amarra did you use? Perhaps a software I/O version may influence the sound as greatly as a digital filter. Just thoughts......

 

Regards,

 

Tim Marutani

Emeryville, CA

 

[vortecjr]

Cool post! Great pics of the studio and the gear. I love the Magneplanar speakers....they are my favorite speakers. Thanks for your help with the vibration issue. I was going to order the tubes, but desided to try a square air bag and got busy and drop the ball on the project. Its coming though.

 

I'll send you an e-mail with some ideas regarding "I don't fully trust the comparison yet and am trying to see if something I did put the Berkeley at an unfair disadvantage."

 

Regards

Jesus R

www.sonore.us

 

[bdiament]

Hi Ted,

 

We didn't listen to the Weiss in this test.

Our prime interest was in comparing the BADA and the '8 as I'd never heard the BADA and my guest had never heard the '8.

 

He did mention he thought the Weiss sounded bandlimited and lacking in definition compared to the BADA.

 

I heard the Weiss in one of the blind comparisons done with the ULN-8 a few years ago. I chose to live (and work) with the '8.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Tim,

 

I use Macs and PCs in my life but for audio, I have chosen to use a Mac only. For my ears, a Mac with a Firewire connection to a Metric Halo interface has provided the best sound I've yet experience. When listening to recordings I made myself, this combination easily get me the closest to what I heard at the sessions.

 

To answer your other question, we used the latest, full version of Amarra.

 

While I hear different sounds from each software application I have used, I would not agree the influence is of the same magnitude as switching the digital filter. At least in the instance of last Friday's filter change on the BADA, the difference was much larger than any change in software would provide.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[ackcheng]

Hi Barry,

Did you have a chance to compare ULN-8 with Prismsound? Seems that they are of the same league but the comparison between the 2 is lacking. Your input is appreciated

 

Yours

 

Athur

 

[cfmsp]

 

 

"...some ideas regarding "I don't fully trust the comparison yet and am trying to see if something I did put the Berkeley at an unfair disadvantage."

 

JR,

 

This is something that the whole group would be interested in hearing. Why not post it here?

 

Oh wait, maybe you think that AES through a Lynx card is better than Firewire?

 

clay

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Athur,

 

The Prism was one of more than a dozen "contenders" involved in the blind comparison with the ULN-8 I heard a few years ago.

 

I found it sweet sounding, perhaps even "silky" is not a bad descriptor. Definitely a fine unit.

I purchased the ULN-8.

 

I find many of the best units to sound quite fine, especially when they are heard without switching directly to a ULN-8. ;-}

It is that switch to the ULN-8 (and even more so, back to the "other") that I find to be the key.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[cfmsp]

"Did you have a chance to compare ULN-8 with Prismsound? "

 

Barry, maybe you wanna recap the devices that were tested in the large blind shootout? I believe it was referred to on gearslutz, but I never saw the thread.

 

Clay

 

[bdiament]

Hi Clay,

 

I would seriously doubt the Berkeley absolutely requires the Lynx card to perform the Firewire to AES conversion. If it does, I would see that as a big red flag. But I give the designers much more credit than that.

 

I think they *recommend* the Lynx card. I seriously doubt (and really, really hope) they don't "require" it.

 

Frankly, I personally see the absence of Firewire on the Berkeley as a limitation.

 

Just my perspective.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[Purite Audio]

I should have an opportunity to compare both Weiss Dac II and Sonics Model 4 this week, both will be firewire from a mac pro running Amarra, If any one's interested I could post something ? I have been trying to get hold of a Berkeley , I am hopeful that they will hae an ROHS compliant version soon,for us Euros.

Keith.

 

[vortecjr]

Post away!

 

[cfmsp]

 

 

"I would seriously doubt the Berkeley absolutely requires the Lynx card"

 

Understood, Barry, I was chiding/joking with JR. I was guessing that the 'disadvantage' he might see is in not using the Lynx card from the Mac (G5 required) directly to the BADA, without the 'conversion' from Firewire.

 

Personally, I view S/PDIF & AES as an inferior interface (due to non use of local clock) to Firewire from a theoretical perspective, world class implementations notwithstanding.

 

Clay

 

[vortecjr]

I do hope people will use the Lynx AES16 into the BAD or what ever other AES input they may have. This may seem self promoting to you. However, I have reached out to Berkely and THEY seem to have a preference in the Lynx AES16 audio card. I asked them about another card and they said we could do better with the Lynx AES16 audio card in to the DAD. They expained one had 35 times more jitter.... I don't presume to tell you or anyone else that firewire is better or worse than AES. I think they are both the best options and I also like Gordon's usb implementation.

 

FYI I don't use the AES or the firewire......I use the L22.

 

JR

www.sonore.us

 

[ted_b]

an that cd ended up being the source. That is unfortunate (driver issues I guess). I believe both the BADA and Weiss (which I own) shine in HiRez, although I'm sure the "8" does to. Any plans to redo? Thx

Ted

 

[cfmsp]

"I do hope people will use the Lynx AES16 into the BAD or what ever other AES input they may have. This may seem self promoting to you."

 

Hype would probably be considered as self-promoting, but not hope.

 

I probably shouldn't even have posted that last bit. I was hoping (there's that word again) that the potential self-promotion concern would not prevent you from posting the 'ideas' you had, and then I guessed - light-heartedly, I thought - what those ideas might be. Apparently that didn't come across.

Apologies

Clay

 

 

 

 

[silverlight]

hi everyone, I thought I'd add my 2c to the feedback from friday evening's listening with the BADA and ULN-8. First a big thanks to Barry for being a great host. A wonderful guy and was fun a time hearing his studio setup. A very clean, revealing and transparent sound - I think I could have stayed there a long time listening to music (a very different sound with the Maggies than I'm used to)!

 

The two DAC's were set up with a preamplifier such that they could be level-matched and instantly switched (no changing cables, setup or level-matching between switches, which was a big advantage in hearing the differences).

 

We were having issues getting the Mac+ULN8 play high res, but apparently this had to do with the latest beta drivers for the 8 and so were unable to do a comparison using hi res and ended up using CD's via a Sony CD player. I would personally really like to hear the setup again configured for hi rez (esp HRx and some 192 music).

 

As Barry mentioned, initially the 8 easily outperformed the BADA (transparency and detail, instrument separation, better attack and decay, deeper soundstage). This was using filter 1.16 which is the default filter for the BADA using redbook material (1.24 is the default for all other sample rates). When we switched the filter to 1.24, the differences were far smaller, and to my ears much more subtle and required careful listening. Interestingly according to the BADA manual, these are the same filters with different spacing of the HDCD flags (unsure of implications). With choral music (Rutter's Reqiuem; Stephen Layton's Lux Aeterna), the separation of the singers was greater and the imaging more accurate (felt more in the recording space). In the album Melos (Vassillis Tsabropoulos), the leading edge of the violin in tracks 1 and 4 we listened to had greater detail, and could hear the subtle cues like the breathing of what I'm assuming was the lead violinist in the left of the soundstage. We also listened to a CD-R of Lift, which Barry mastered, and could hear the subtle differences, particular track 4 which we spent more time on (guitar string attack, soundstage imaging, etc.).

 

In addition to checking the drivers/firmware of the ULN-8 to make sure they play nicely with the BADA, there are 2 other points of focus for me to make sure the comparison is fair: (1) the break-out cable from the 8 which was connected to the Kubala Sosna Emotion AES/EBU cable into the BADA, and (2) vibrational isolation of the BADA. On point one, Barry wanted to take another look to make sure it was configured properly. On point 2, given the limited rack space we had to put the BADA on top of the CD player. The CD player was the only source we used for comparisons and so we had the drive vibration coupled to the BADA (I put Stillpoints between the two, but the ULN8 was both floated and had rollerball-style isolation beneath; the CD player also was floated and had the rollerball-style isolation beneath it). The differences were close enough that they could be explained by issues in any of the 3 points, but since I haven't listened to the sonic and resolving differences of a dozen+ DAC's in a comparison, I'm not in a position to judge this. But I can say when I better isolated the BADA, I did get a big change in sound (stage, detail, etc.). Changes in power cords also made very significant differences in listening to the BADA and Weiss during my period of ownership. Another upside for the 8 or Model 4 in this regard is it's use of a DC input - one could add a custom power supply from Paul Hynes or Bolder Cable and probably achieve even better results.

 

A "mini-rave" in NYC is being planned by Ciamarra in Sept, and will have the same DAC's (as well as the Lavry and Weiss) setup for listening, so will be another chance to listen for differences between them. In this case they'll be compared based only on AES output from a Lynx card and so may be a better comparison of just the DAC function of these units.

 

Congrats to both Metric Halo and Berkeley Audio for such fantastic products! Look forward to hearing more from both of them We didn't have time to connect the Weiss DAC2 as we were running late into the evening but I'd love to do that as well in the same system (maybe we'll get hirez and the weiss up and running for another session). The Weiss in my system has a wonderful, rich sound that I can see many loving and potentially picking in blind test as well.