The "Official" Aurender Discussion Thread

[Vincent1234]

1 hour ago, Mazza said:

+1.....

 

but then it wouldn’t be a hobby, would it ! 🤪

True..! 😄

[Vincent1234]

13 hours ago, AriMargolis said:

It’s a test tone for left and right channel ID so you can test to make sure you don’t have your wires crossed.

I've always had my wires crossed. But I guess you were referring to my stereo system..? 😉😁

[Vincent1234]

6 hours ago, Noushy said:

Glad to see their products continued to be well supported.  I own 4 currently and just placed my preorder for the N20.  Excited since I have been wanting the updated display and the word clock function.  My only complaint is the huge jump in price and the fact that with it comes no storage devices internally compared to the N10.  Curious if anyone else pulled the trigger or decided buying a used W20 was better or even a W20SE?

I have the exact same thoughts. I bought a used W20 a few years ago and replacing the N10 at the time it was a HUGE step-up. Really. I would be really surprised if the N20 would better it.. But I haven't been able to compare directly, obviously. Based on my own experience with the (used) W20, I think my money would go that way, especially now the W20SE has hit the market.

[Vincent1234]

19 hours ago, scottman said:

Hello and thank you in advance for your observations and advice. I just received today my N100SC, and a couple of questions occur to me as I’m setting it up.
 

First, with the solid-state storage drive buffer, will I hear effects of various upstream components, eg, router, Ethernet switch and cabling. Making the transition as I am from a computer-based server/streamer, my experience suggests that the entire network affects the system sonics. Intuitively, though, I might predict these elements will have no effect on the Aurender’s performance, since it is reading from the internal drive during playback. But, audio system performance often is counterintuitive.

 

My second question also relates to what I might expect from a component that writes music files to an internal drive before playback. I currently have an NAS set up in my listening room and plan to access it using the Aurender. Would there be an advantage to installing a drive in the N100CS?

 

Finally, if I understand the way the Aurender operates, I should be able to play back from the internal hard drive while completely disconnected from the network. Is that correct?

 

Thanks again!

Yes, switch and Ethernet cable quality certainly matter (based on my experience with W20).

 

Yes, internal harddisk is likely to sound better due to shorter signal path.

 

You will need network access to be able to control your aurender. Other than that: yes, possible. But not really convenient. 😉

[Vincent1234]

33 minutes ago, Mazza said:

I had the opposite experience with Ethernet cable - tried audioquest vodka and found no improvement whatsoever over cat6a. 

But I don’t stream from NAS, I only use the W20’s HDD so maybe that’s one reason  The Ethernet is only used for control

 

YMMV of course! 

For me personally it matters as much for playback of locally stored files on the W20 HDD's. Common mode noise makes no distinction between those and streaming files from the internet. 😉

But I agree it can certainly be system dependant. However, the W20 seems to me to be really sensitive to the quality of switch and Ethernet cable quality. The Melco S100 works great here, as well as Shunyata Sigma Ethernet cables - better even than AQ Diamond but less expensive.

Also here: YMMV.

[Vincent1234]

31 minutes ago, Mazza said:

@vincent1234 for such situations maybe optical Ethernet might yield better isolation at much cheaper cost.  
 

Not tried it personally

Optical isolation can indeed help too, although not all kinds of interference (e.g. jitter) are being stopped that way. One disadvantage of optical is the fact that one needs two additional conversions: from electrical to optical and then back again. I must admit that I haven't tried it myself either, but the conversions are holding me back.

[Vincent1234]

12 hours ago, Noushy said:

It has a word clock input and to be honest paired with a killer DAC I doubt it will that different than the W20SE.  I think the clock sync is what will bring it up to W20/20SE levels or close.  And yes I have a $35K MSB setup I think will be amazing.

 

Noushy

Hi Noushy,

 

It's very interesting to see that the new main boards of the N20 and W20SE look pretty similar at first view. That certainly wasn't the case with the previous N10 and W20. @AriMargoliscan you share your thoughts on this matter?

 

However, it's very likely that the battery power supply in the W20/W20SE accounts for a great deal of their excellent sound quality. I would be very curious to hear the new N20 and W20SE side by side in a great system such as yours. 😀

 

Cheers,

Vincent

[Vincent1234]

Just installed the new app on my iPhone. It's very nice and very quick too! Much faster than the Android version. Good job! 👍🏻

[Vincent1234]

4 hours ago, AriMargolis said:

@Ponzi it's not a "no-no." It is just that in that case you are not using the ACS10's built in double isolated LAN port to protect your "primary" Aurender player from noise. I would expect/hope that a very expensive stand-alone purpose-built-for-audio Ethernet switch would be more impressive than the simple circuit that's built into ACS10's 2X isolated LAN port.

Indeed. There are many reports of audiophile switches improving sound considerably. I have the very same experience. Tested Bonn N8 with and without F1 LPS. After that the Melco S100 with and without additional Nuprime LPS. Ended up with the latter combination and the results are stunning, really. Also many have reported that multiple audiophile switches in series are a further improvement. Don't be afraid to experiment. Ethernet has many secrets to be unveiled!

[Vincent1234]

39 minutes ago, Anonamemouse said:

I do have to state that so far my experience is with the Android version of the app, which really is just sad. 

My first streamer was a rotel which had a text based control, the second was a bluesound node2 which literally went up in smoke, the third a borrowed Lumin which I quite liked, and now I have a N100SC. 

I thought long and hard about what I wanted, what I wanted it to sound like and what options it should have or were not needed. 

As it turned out my N100SC "plays a song" when using the Android app, but basically this is it. I cannot manually enter the path to my NAS. The play/pause/stop/etc controls are all 2 "clicks" deep. Sorting is a mess. I installed an SSD (I actually took apart a portable harddisk to put the drive in the player) just to get it to play. 

 

I do not own a fruit tablet, and never expected the difference between the fruit and the Android so humongous. Which is why I am quite frustrated. 

I really don't want to buy a 500 dollar tablet to only use as a remote. 

Sorry, but I really don't know what is 'sad' about the Android version. I'm using it daily and it does what it's supposed to do. 

Aurender doesn't want an app that does it all, just as they don't want to support Roon. Both choices would require more processing power, which often leads to more EMI and RFI and a decrease in SQ. I myself will choose SQ over features anyday.

[Vincent1234]

6 hours ago, Anonamemouse said:

Did you actually read my entire post or did you stop after the first line?

I did, thank you. I also don't understand the '2 clicks deep' as the play, pause, backward and forward buttons are available straight after launching the app. See below.

[Vincent1234]

12 hours ago, RevelFan said:

Anyone have some hands on time/experience with the N20 and want to share thoughts.  My finger is hovering over the BUY ME NOW button.  my other hand is trying to hide my wallet.  cheers all

Not yet, unfortunately. But I did notice that the main boards of the new W20SE and N20 are almost identical, which bodes well for an uplift in SQ compared to the N10. However, the price is also increased substantially.

[Vincent1234]

5 hours ago, marslo said:

Very interesting.

Could you pls elaborate a bit deeper the differences between W20 and the new top of the line W20 SE?

I am very satisfied with the functionality and the sound of my W20 which I have for 7 or 8 years, one ot the first W20 delivered to Poland. Very stable as a server , I do not have NAS.

I was told by the local dealer that he has not W20SE for audition , he does not offer the replacement option either. I did not find any comparison or review of W20 SE in the net, apart from the recent Robert Harley test.

 

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/aurender-w20se-music-server/?page=2

 

Does the W 20 SE still has the option to turn off the power in usb audio board?

My preferred connection to Pacific SE DAC is an unpowered usb cable , Pacific has the self powered Amanero board , as an option I have a better  clocks installed by Lampizator staff.

Robert Harley is using Berkeley Ref   DAC without usb input so he is obliged to use a separate usb/ spdif converter which is suboptimal imho.

I would be curious too to hear the W20 and W20SE side by side, but haven't been able to. But maybe this might be of help for you to increase its SQ further: I have recently tested a lot with audiophile switches and quality Ethernet cables. It's VERY clear that the old W20 is very sensitive to Ethernet and common mode issues. In other words: a very good audiophile switch simply elevates it into another league, as do high-spec Ethernet cables. I ended up with a Melco S100 switch with Nuprime LPS. Recently upgraded the Ethernet cable from a Shunyata Sigma (great cable for the money) to a Crystal Cable Absolute Dream, which is even way better in all audible respects.

I'm telling you this especially since the new W20SE has a double isolated Ethernet port and this feature will likely raise it to a much higher SQ level by itself. Checking and upgrading your Ethernet hardware for the old W20 pays off in ways I really couldn't have imagined. Ripped cd's sound almost as good now as played through the transport of the Vivaldi One, whereas before they sounded quite small and muffled in comparison.

Might be helpful. Just try it out and be as amazed as I was. ☺

[Vincent1234]

1 hour ago, marslo said:

I share your opinion about  LAN cables Vincent.

I am using Jcat ref LAN cable for W20  and their LAN/usb grounding  device for Pacific and W20.

 

 

Looks good! 👍🏻 Are you also using an audiophile switch? The Silent Angel Bonn N8 is very affordable (EUR 400) as is the Silent Angel LPS Forrester 1 upgrade option (same price); both are great upgrades and very much worth the money. The Melco S100 is much better still, actually making the W20 sound faultlessly quiet, open and analogue (especially with an LPS), but it's also in a different price bracket. Looking at your great system however I think you will be stunned by the improvements it makes, also regarding price-performance ratio. Certainly worth a try. 👍🏻

[Vincent1234]

1 hour ago, marslo said:

As I don’t have a NAS I do not need a switch either, I play the music stored localy on 2 W20 HDDs and then sent to SSD for the playback.

When I tried RJ45 playback with my Pacific and  LDMS with a switch , it was promissing but not better than the unpowered usb connection.

I buy hires SM  PCM and native DSD albums and store them on Aurender as a server with the external backup on usb HDDs.

I play native files  without transcoding or upsampling. Tidal is  only to audition  new albums before I buy them with Qobuz, Nativedsd, Hyperion, eclassical or HDTT. 

I listen to the whole albums , usually even do not create playlists.

 

Hi marslo, thanks for the update. Triggered by your mentioning Jcat I looked up this review: https://audiobacon.net/2019/11/02/the-jcat-signature-lan-a-1000-ethernet-cable/?amp=1

From the review: "This is presumably the reason why an Ethernet cable will change the sound of your system. In fact, even if you’re not streaming music through an Ethernet cable – as long as it’s connected to your music server – it’ll change the sound of your music files stored on disk."

Please read at least the first page as I think it might be enlightning to you and hopefully to others too. Basically it's (very correctly!) saying that Ethernet cables and switches do not only impact streaming over Ethernet, but also impact the sound quality of your local files. The simple reason is that EMI, RFI and common mode noise introduced through Ethernet/LAN cabling do not care about the location of the file being played (be it local on the W20 HDD's, NAS, Qobuz etc.). They simply can and will screw up the sound and output of your W20 in every case. Especially common mode noise is killing for SQ, as it moves through all components right through to your DAC via USB. This is exactly what I have found to be the case. My local files benefitted as much as streaming from Qobuz and Tidal. Obviously I don't know all the details of your setup and you seem to have very good Ethernet hardware already, but I would still highly recommend to try a good switch, as the impact is likely to amaze you as well as it did me. It is a common misunderstanding that only streamed files are affected. The exact same goes for all the files stored locally on your and my W20.

[Vincent1234]

1 hour ago, michaelD said:

Guys Vincent1234 and Marslo maybe I can be of some help.

 

I got one of the first black N10's strictly because it have multiple outputs beyond USB.  I however did try some USB as my dealer insisted for me to try his very high quality cables that he had.  I then tried an average XLR and heard really no difference.  I then went out and purchased a very high end XLR and could immediately hear a nice increase of SQ.  I know some DAC's are only USB and also some DAC's sound better with USB mine is neither it likes the XLR connection.  Also if you note in the latest W20SE update they tweaked something to make the XLR connection even better.  I wrote to find out more in detail but really did not learn much more but that is a interesting fact that I will certainly bring up at the next audio show to get a better description of just exactly what they did and why.  For those using USB and if you have a XLR input see if you can get a loaner cable and give it a try you might be surprised!

 

I posted months ago when I first got the W20SE that for those that had a N10 that then moved to the W20 the increase in SQ is very much the same as moving from the W20 to the SE model.  Its that dramatic.  Aurender does a lot of things right but I think they did themselves a misjustice in the naming of this product.  Yes from 10' away you can't tell them apart but internally there was a lot of new updates added infact I think the only thing that stayed exactly the same is the housing and batteries.  They should of named it a W30 or something as the SE part makes it you think that they did a minor tweak when infact they did not.  The price also went up 4k in the US so that to seems to beg that the changes are much more then what a SE label would at first glance think.

 

Also a comment on network cable.  About 6 months after getting the W20 I upgraded by network totally.  Initially had a AQ Vodka then Nordost H2 network cable which by the way was better.  Decided to upgrade to a SoTm switch with its dedicated power supply and AQ Diamond network cables since Nordost has nothing higher then H2.  This was a major upgrade in SQ.  I was really blown away how much that did help.  I then moved on to the W20SE and now another big jump like I said previously.  This has lead me to my most recently update on power panel and ground update but that is a subject for another day.

 

Let me just say the other thing I kind of missed with the W20SE is I would of thought that it would of had a A30 display.  I was actually missing that a lot but I got to believe that Aurender had to do this on purpose so there must be some underlying reason SQ wise that they did not.  However more recently I have found a way to make my own so to speak A30 screen.  I listen in critical listening mode and then put my iPad in front of the display.  I then us my phone app as needed as I mostly listen in random mode.  

Love the iPad solution! 😁

(Be careful of EMI and RFI, though 😉.)

[Vincent1234]

4 hours ago, marslo said:

@Vincent1234 and

@michaelD

 

Thank you for your insight.

As you both stress the importance  ot the audiophile switch even if the files are  stored locally I need to install one.

As Vincent underline  it should  reduce the EMI/RMI distortions of LAN connection and thus improve the SQ.

You're very welcome. The Jcat grounding device you already own will certainly help mitigate common mode noise. But still I will be very curious to hear about your findings when using an audiophile switch. Appreciate it if you keep us posted!

[Vincent1234]

3 hours ago, merge03 said:

Has anyone had a chance to compare the N10 (using internal storage) and their own DAC, with the dCS Rossini streaming from a NAS?   Any impressions you are willing to share?

 

Yes, I had both Rossini and N10. Using the Aurender (and its internal storage) as the primary streaming device sounded much better than streaming directly to the Rossini. Same goes by the way for my current Vivaldi One. Using the W20 (and internal storage) as the streaming device sounds much better than streaming to the Vivaldi One. An extensive Roon setup will likely improve things but probably not to the current SQ level.

[Vincent1234]

2 hours ago, Ponzi said:

FWIW, I tried various USB cables between my Aurender and DAC, some terribly pricy, and found that none them matched the performance of a good balanced AES cable.  The balanced cable I am using is a Kublal Sosna.  I would note, too, that the owners manual for the W20SE says rather openly that balanced cables will give better results.  The W20SE permits a stereo pair, but my DAC (the PS Audio Directstream) accepts only one.  

I fully get you, however my experience is different. The Crystal Dreamline Plus USB sounded just as equally great as the same cables in dual AES/EBU in an extensive test, connecting the W20 and the dCS Rossini, but USB obviously was/is at way lower costs. I think it really depends primarily on ones system and especially on the quality of the USB implementation of the Aurender as well as the DAC being used. So I would strongly advise anyone to try before you buy. 

Since I have moved from dCS Rossini to dCS Vivaldi One, I guess I should try again if dual AES would make a significant improvement. Underlining 'significant' here as the additional costs will be very high on this level of cabling.

[Vincent1234]

19 hours ago, Ponzi said:

Interesting.  I will have to experiment more.  I will say that I had trouble betting good connections with many USB cables.  They seemed not to fit tightly and even sagged a bit, when plugged it.  The AES by contrast snap in and hold tightly.  Also, I am using a switch between the W20SE and the router, which made an obvious and immediate improvement. Possibly that makes the choice of interconnect less consequential. ?????

Hi Ponzi. Same here; I'm using a wonderful Melco S100 switch between the W20 and the router with a Crystal Absolute Dream Ethernet cable. It really does improve things hugely, but I would expect this to be independant from the impact of the digital connection between the Aurender and DAC. It is well known that the implementation quality of the different digital interfaces of a DAC (AES, USB, coax etc.) can vary greatly and this will have a very big impact on the resulting sound quality. Probably even more than the cable quality being used.

[Vincent1234]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I have to say, I really enjoy the Aurender app for iPhone. Using it with a new N20 that I put an SSD into. Great stuff all around. 

 

I agree! It's really nice and fast too. 👍🏻

[Vincent1234]

On 2/13/2021 at 4:13 AM, ken6217 said:

Just received my N20 and ACS100. I'll hook it up tomorrow. For ripping CD's is there any benefit or negative of WAV versus FLAC in terms of audio quality or album art? I do know that WAV files do take up more space.

I don't agree with some of the others here. I do feel there's a slight difference in SQ between FLAC and WAV, with the latter sounding slightly more transparent. Considering the low cost of data storage these days I would suggest to let your own ears decide. If you hear a difference I would rip in WAV. If you don't, it is a non-issue for you. 😉

[Vincent1234]

18 hours ago, Ponzi said:

Is this an issue for ASC10 owners?

Not sure if you are referring to FLAC vs. WAV. But in case you are, I think this topic is primarily related to the two audio formats. I don't think it is hardware dependant. 

[Vincent1234]

1 hour ago, edje said:

I am very curious which DAC you use with the N20. I now own an A10, and wonder if switching to an N20 with, for example, a Chord Qutest DAC would give a significant upgrade.

Or would the Qutest form a mismatch in terms of sound quality, and would it be a better option to go to a X100 with a better DAC like the DCS Bartok?

In your case I would indeed think about a better DAC (the Bartók is great!) first. Indeed the X100 could then be a good next move. I started with the X100L myself, then moved to the N10 and then to the W20. All are significant upgrades, but in your case I would think it would be more logical to start with a better DAC as the foundation first.

[Vincent1234]

23 hours ago, edje said:

Do you think that the Bartók with x100 will be a serious upgrade over the A10? I am not looking 

for a small update off course with this kind of money involved.

As indicated by Ken: the Bartók is one hell of a DAC. So yes, it will be a huge upgrade. Considering the X100: if your budget allows you could consider listening to an N10 too (maybe a used one!) or even an N20. The N10 does sound considerably better than the X100 (which uses an SMPS instead of an LPS). But again, it's about budget. The N10/N20 would be a great match with the Bartók, but you could also be happy with an X100.