Did Zeppelin steal the stairway...?

[PAP]

Hi Jud

and how was it again with ''Day tripper'' that bass line also came from somewhere.

John Mayall used it in his cover of What'd I say, but that was later than the Beatles, where did the line originate?

[johnemcgregor]

Wayne's World-No Stairway...Denied - YouTube

[firedog]

Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven may be partly stolen, judge says | Music | The Guardian

[firedog]

Hi Jud

and how was it again with ''Day tripper'' that bass line also came from somewhere.

John Mayall used it in his cover of What'd I say, but that was later than the Beatles, where did the line originate?

 

Acc'd to George Harrison, it originated with him.

[Audio_ELF]

Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven may be partly stolen, judge says | Music | The Guardian

This is nothing to do with copying and is all about the amount of money made by Led Zeppelin and people (not the original artist but his estate) wanting part of that money.

 

Music has always been inspired by and (yes) copied what comes before. The introduction to Stairway to Heaven is a recognisable piece and very similar to Taurus; but a chord progression doesn't make a song, and the money was made not because of the chord progression but because of the personalities, etc. of the people performing the song.

 

And even looking at performing rights for the song, no one performs it because it has a great opening, they want to perform it because it was a great Led Zeppelin song. None of that has anything to do with the original Taurus piece.

 

The fact that Randy Wolfe knew about this for years and did nothing speaks volumes (IMO). It's nothing about the morals of copying a chord progression; it's just about money and jealousy (Led Zeppelin have money, the trustees want it!)

[craighartley]

This is nothing to do with copying and is all about the amount of money made by Led Zeppelin and people (not the original artist but his estate) wanting part of that money.

 

Music has always been inspired by and (yes) copied what comes before. The introduction to Stairway to Heaven is a recognisable piece and very similar to Taurus; but a chord progression doesn't make a song, and the money was made not because of the chord progression but because of the personalities, etc. of the people performing the song.

 

And even looking at performing rights for the song, no one performs it because it has a great opening, they want to perform it because it was a great Led Zeppelin song. None of that has anything to do with the original Taurus piece.

 

The fact that Randy Wolfe knew about this for years and did nothing speaks volumes (IMO). It's nothing about the morals of copying a chord progression; it's just about money and jealousy (Led Zeppelin have money, the trustees want it!)

 

The chord progression is also close to the opening of one of John Dowland's chromatic lute fantasies. I expect he'll sue pretty soon.

[Axiom05]

This is nothing to do with copying and is all about the amount of money made by Led Zeppelin and people (not the original artist but his estate) wanting part of that money.

 

Music has always been inspired by and (yes) copied what comes before. The introduction to Stairway to Heaven is a recognisable piece and very similar to Taurus; but a chord progression doesn't make a song, and the money was made not because of the chord progression but because of the personalities, etc. of the people performing the song.

 

And even looking at performing rights for the song, no one performs it because it has a great opening, they want to perform it because it was a great Led Zeppelin song. None of that has anything to do with the original Taurus piece.

 

The fact that Randy Wolfe knew about this for years and did nothing speaks volumes (IMO). It's nothing about the morals of copying a chord progression; it's just about money and jealousy (Led Zeppelin have money, the trustees want it!)

 

I think this pretty much sums things up accurately.

[firedog]

This is nothing to do with copying and is all about the amount of money made by Led Zeppelin and people (not the original artist but his estate) wanting part of that money.

 

Music has always been inspired by and (yes) copied what comes before. The introduction to Stairway to Heaven is a recognisable piece and very similar to Taurus; but a chord progression doesn't make a song, and the money was made not because of the chord progression but because of the personalities, etc. of the people performing the song.

 

And even looking at performing rights for the song, no one performs it because it has a great opening, they want to perform it because it was a great Led Zeppelin song. None of that has anything to do with the original Taurus piece.

 

The fact that Randy Wolfe knew about this for years and did nothing speaks volumes (IMO). It's nothing about the morals of copying a chord progression; it's just about money and jealousy (Led Zeppelin have money, the trustees want it!)

 

And lawsuits of this type have been won before on more tenuous similarities.

 

I'd say judging the similarities and the fact that LZ performed with Spirit when they were performing Taurus - and not long before Stairway to Heaven was written - common sense says LZ did derive their bit from the Spirit song.

 

Whether that will mean something in court none of has a clue. Both sides will bring in experts to show their side is correct.

 

That Randy didn't sue while he was alive doesn't necessarily back up the conclusion you draw - some people just don't like dealing with lawyers and lawsuits - even if money is to be made. In any case, it sounds like what bothered Randy was that he didn't get the writing credit - not the money, and not that his chords were copied. Of course, the writing credit is worth money, but again, it doesn't sound like the money is what bothered Randy about the episode during his lifetime.

 

I agree his heirs are after the money, and that doesn't bother me in the least. If LZ copied his song, some of the money generated by the song should go to his estate. To claim that the success of the song is only because of the chord progression would be absurd, but claiming it has nothing to do with it is also senseless. The fact that it is years later is irrelevant to the whole thing, IMO.

[Axiom05]

I agree his heirs are after the money, and that doesn't bother me in the least. If LZ copied his song, some of the money generated by the song should go to his estate. To claim that the success of the song is only because of the chord progression would be absurd, but claiming it has nothing to do with it is also senseless. The fact that it is years later is irrelevant to the whole thing, IMO.

 

Maybe, but whatever the jury decides we are unlikely to know what the truth really is.

[TubeLover]

I think many folks would be surprised at the melodic inventiveness of some rock. Even back in their relatively straight-ahead days, Lennon-McCartney were doing some things differently, e.g., the chord on the final "yeah!" from "She Loves You." But I'm not going to say there isn't a great deal of melodic similarity among many examples of a genre that has such deep roots in blues and Appalachian traditional music. One other factor I think plays into this is the omnivorous music listening of so many people whose lives are, after all, all about music. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is often quite a fine line when songwriting between an original melody line popping into one's head and a melody line heard years ago then forgotten at a conscious level. See, e.g., George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" and the Ronnie Mack song "He's So Fine" for The Chiffons.

 

Well said, Jud! I'm certain that subconscious familiarity is likely a factor that influences in most areas of music in one way or another.

 

And seriously, 43 years is absolotely too late. And not for ripping off a an entire song, but simply an opening guitar rift? Not to mention that the supposed offended party has passed away, and now his "estate" is offended and wants to sue? He never even chose that path while alive. It's borderline absurd.

 

JC

[firedog]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is often quite a fine line when songwriting between an original melody line popping into one's head and a melody line heard years ago then forgotten at a conscious level. See, e.g., George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" and the Ronnie Mack song "He's So Fine" for The Chiffons.

 

In fact, in that case, despite ruling against George, the judge did say he thought the use of the melody was unintentional. Didn't help Harrison though.

 

On the other hand, George demoed the song while he was still with the Beatles, and supposedly was told that it sounded just like "He's So Fine". So he couldn't have been unaware of it when he released his song.

[Audio_ELF]

That Randy didn't sue while he was alive doesn't necessarily back up the conclusion you draw - some people just don't like dealing with lawyers and lawsuits - even if money is to be made. In any case, it sounds like what bothered Randy was that he didn't get the writing credit - not the money, and not that his chords were copied. Of course, the writing credit is worth money, but again, it doesn't sound like the money is what bothered Randy about the episode during his lifetime.

The problem is, we don't know what Randy may or may not have felt or said. Who knows if after hearing the song, Jimmy Page didn't say to Randy ... hey that introduction is cool, do you mind if I use something like it in this new song I'm writing. Did Randy Wolfe ever approach Jimmy Page and Robert Plant in his life time. Regardless of how much it was copied (and there is a distinct similarity but I wouldn't say its any more copied that the start of Whiter Shade of Pale's introduction wasn't copied from Bach); Randy Wolfe's attitude to it is whats important (IMO).

 

I agree his heirs are after the money, and that doesn't bother me in the least.

As I say ... I completely disagree there ... all that is important (to me) is what Randy Wolfe thought of Stairway to Heaven.

If LZ copied his song, some of the money generated b y the song should go to his estate. To claim that the success of the song is only because of the chord progression would be absurd, but claiming it has nothing to do with it is also senseless. The fact that it is years later is irrelevant to the whole thing, IMO.

Its not like Led Zeppelin were unknowns when they created that song. They didn't build their career on that song. The time also matter yes ... in many jurisdictions (rightly or wrongly) the statutes of limitation would prevent prosecuting serious crimes that far in the past ... and this is just about money!

 

I'm sorry but I have no sympathy with Randy Wolfe's estate - a sensible result in court would be: "Yes its copied; yes LZ must credit Randy Wolfe in the future; damages - £1"

[firedog]

The problem is, we don't know what Randy may or may not have felt or said. Who knows if after hearing the song, Jimmy Page didn't say to Randy ... hey that introduction is cool, do you mind if I use something like it in this new song I'm writing. Did Randy Wolfe ever approach Jimmy Page and Robert Plant in his life time. Regardless of how much it was copied (and there is a distinct similarity but I wouldn't say its any more copied that the start of Whiter Shade of Pale's introduction wasn't copied from Bach); Randy Wolfe's attitude to it is whats important (IMO).

 

 

As I say ... I completely disagree there ... all that is important (to me) is what Randy Wolfe thought of Stairway to Heaven).[/Quote]

 

Well, we sort of do. Randy specifically said they didn't ask him or give him a credit and that's what bothered him.

 

Its not like Led Zeppelin were unknowns when they created that song. They didn't build their career on that song. The time also matter yes ... in many jurisdictions (rightly or wrongly) the statutes of limitation would prevent prosecuting serious crimes that far in the past ... and this is just about money!

 

AFAIK, statutes of limitations are mostly about the unreliability of evidence after a certain amount of time. Doesn't really apply here.

Sure their career wasn't built only on it. But in the US at least (and I'm sure other places) "Stairway" was the only LZ song that was ever "approved" for play on radio - literally the only one. If you don't think that made LZ tons of money and that this was a serious contributor to their popularity, you don't understand much about how the music business worked back then. Lots of bands were "hits" at little listened to FM stations, but mostly unknown by the general public. Spirit themselves were a classic example of this - well known and liked by critics and sophisticated listeners, not enough AM/Top 40 hits to make it big. Those AM playable hits were the key to really big success.

 

I'm sorry but I have no sympathy with Randy Wolfe's estate - a sensible result in court would be: "Yes its copied; yes LZ must credit Randy Wolfe in the future; damages - £1"

 

That wouldn't be an unreasonable outcome. But if so, his estate should still get his cut of the writing credit going forward.

[Jud]

But in the US at least (and I'm sure other places) "Stairway" was the only LZ song that was ever "approved" for play on radio - literally the only one.

 

What does "approved" mean as you're using it here, and do you have a reference? Because while Stairway was at least at one time and quite possibly still is the most requested song ever on US radio, it is hardly the only one of their hits to be played, played and overplayed. (Not sure it's still the case, but "Whole Lotta Love" was their best-selling US single at a point long after the release of Stairway.)

[firedog]

What does "approved" mean as you're using it here, and do you have a reference? Because while Stairway was at least at one time and quite possibly still is the most requested song ever on US radio, it is hardly the only one of their hits to be played, played and overplayed. (Not sure it's still the case, but "Whole Lotta Love" was their best-selling US single at a point long after the release of Stairway.)

 

Sorry, I wrote that wrong. Didn't mean in general in the US, but meant the only one "approved" at quite a number of radio stations in the US.

 

Just remember reading an article about how "top 40" and other restricted radio station playlists worked during the mid-late 70's, and it specifically used Led Zep as an example - saying that lots of stations had restricted playlists and "Stairway" was the only LZ song DJ's or programmers at those stations were allowed to play. I'd guess that's still true today, especially in the ultra-centrally controlled corporate conglomerate world of radio now common in the US. Few local stations left.

[Jud]

Sorry, I wrote that wrong. Didn't mean in general in the US, but meant the only one "approved" at quite a number of radio stations in the US.

 

Just remember reading an article about how "top 40" and other restricted radio station playlists worked during the mid-late 70's, and it specifically used Led Zep as an example - saying that lots of stations had restricted playlists and "Stairway" was the only LZ song DJ's or programmers at those stations were allowed to play. I'd guess that's still true today, especially in the ultra-centrally controlled corporate conglomerate world of radio now common in the US. Few local stations left.

 

My guess (and that's all it is) is that this meant at a particular point in time, certainly not when other Zep songs were top-selling singles or driving top-selling albums, of which Zep has had quite a number. Wonder how many (if any) Beatles songs were included in those playlists?

 

I have a loose recollection (could well be inaccurate) that "top 40" is now down to "top 18" or so, maybe fewer.

[firedog]

Wonder how many (if any) Beatles songs were included in those playlists?

 

I have a loose recollection (could well be inaccurate) that "top 40" is now down to "top 18" or so, maybe fewer.

 

Definitely were some: I bet "Tomorrow Never Knows","Only a Northern Song", and "Love You To" didn't get a lot of playlist action at those stations.

 

I've read similar stuff to the "top 18" number you remember about many of today's stations.

[Audio_ELF]

Well, we sort of do. Randy specifically said they didn't ask him or give him a credit and that's what bothered him.

I'm not sure what to "believe" in the midsts of time ... Yeah I'm sure there is nothing written down from either side. Sorry but the whole : claiming after 43 years against Led Zep for stealing their chord progression stinks much the same as a patent troll stinks.

 

AFAIK, statutes of limitations are mostly about the unreliability of evidence after a certain amount of time. Doesn't really apply here.

This is from Wikipedia so take from it what you will...

The purpose and effect of statutes of limitations are to protect defendants. There are three reasons for their existence:

• A plaintiff with a valid cause of action should pursue it with reasonable diligence.
  
  
• A defendant might have lost evidence to disprove a stale claim.
  
  
• A long-dormant claim has "more cruelty than justice[clarification needed]" (Halsbury's Laws of England, 4th edition).
  
  

The limitation period generally begins when the plaintiff’s cause of action accrues, or they become aware of a previous injury (for example, occupational lung diseases such as asbestosis). In Classical Athens, a five-year statute of limitations was established for all cases except homicide and the prosecution of non-constitutional laws (which had no limitation). Demosthenes wrote that these statutes of limitations were adopted to control "sycophants" (professional accusers).[4]

 

This goes more with my understanding of the reason for statute of liabilities; not so much to protect against unreliable evidence (though that is part of it); but to say "well if it hasn't mattered for the last n years; why does it matter now. It also ensure that we are not holding someone's behaviour in the past to standards we are setting today - in this context when everyone was "copying" each other back then wholesale, why are we holding them to the standard of today that says permission should be sought for every little "copy". Legally though there is no statute of limitation over this.

 

That [writing credit and £1 damages for past rights] wouldn't be an unreasonable outcome. But if so, his estate should still get his cut of the writing credit going forward.

So thats about 1/2 of 1/8 of the writing royalties - based on the introduction being around 1 minute (out of the 8 minutes of the song) and half of the introduction being the flute (which Taurus didn't have)? :-)

[firedog]

So thats about 1/2 of 1/8 of the writing royalties - based on the introduction being around 1 minute (out of the 8 minutes of the song) and half of the introduction being the flute (which Taurus didn't have)? :-)

 

Don't remember the writing credits offhand, but his estate would get a third of the writers royalties, I think . Not actually a lot of money in the world of streaming, for a song long past its peak, but better than nothing. Back in the days of record sales, CD sales, and lots of airplay, the writing royalty would have made someone a multimillionaire. I think one of the articles about the suit said it is estimated that the song has generated 562 million in total income over the years - obviously most of that is record and CD sales.

[Audio_ELF]

To answer the thread topic question... Apparently No!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jun/23/led-zeppelin-cleared-stairway-to-heaven-lawsuit-spirit

[wadeh911]

It's sad all the way around. Music is simple with limited notes composed in certain fashions. Glad the judge ruled that LZ did not steal from Taurus. Like others have said, it's not just the notes but the way the notes are played and by whom.

[hornytoad]

It's sad all the way around. Music is simple with limited notes composed in certain fashions. Glad the judge ruled that LZ did not steal from Taurus. Like others have said, it's not just the notes but the way the notes are played and by whom.

 

Many songs are similar . Ridiculous lawsuit rightly rejected by a jury .