HQ Player

[Lionelh2]

Don't be afraid to try 20 or 22 "DAC Bits" settings as well. I ended up preferring 24, but it was sonically instructional to listen to those lower settings as well. But your description of the loss of details at 32 bits is quite good. And frankly, Miska's great dither algorithms were unable to make their magic for me until I dropped to 24 "DAC Bits" for my interface.

I just tried NS5 and 24 bit and it does sound quite good. What is the PCM filter setting you guys are using? "None"? I am using polysinc short mp and DSD 7 on the DSD side.

[Murmelbier]

For PCM to DSD there is filter in effect too, in this case called "oversampling", and the number of choices are more limited. This oversampling filter converts rate from source PCM source rate to destination SDM rate (for example from 44.1k to 5.6M) which then goes to the modulator section. So there's no DAC-chip style ugly sample-and-hold oversampling in play at all, it is always properly filtered.

 

Dont understand this at all. Have bought the HQPlayer but I really don't know how to set it up properly, I mean which filter to use, which dither to use and so on....

 

Miska, perhaps you could write a new user manual, all consumers are not not PC or MAC profis like you and other members here, but they also want to use your player with the best possible settings and filters.

[AnotherSpin]

Me thinks a new user manual section needs to be written, with these settings prerequisites/relationships spelled out. There are several (but not infinite) combinations.

+1. "HQPlayer for dummies". Miska is genius, and somebody is required to transmit him into lower vibrations, or down-sample for ordinary human's understanding.

[bogi]

For PCM to DSD there is filter in effect too, in this case called "oversampling", and the number of choices are more limited. This oversampling filter converts rate from source PCM source rate to destination SDM rate (for example from 44.1k to 5.6M) which then goes to the modulator section. So there's no DAC-chip style ugly sample-and-hold oversampling in play at all, it is always properly filtered.

 

Thanks Miska for explanation. The question was about the left 'PCM defaults' 'Filter' drop box in the Settings dialog and you answered about the right 'Oversampling' drop box in 'SDM defaults'. The question was if for PCM to DSD the left setting in 'Filter' has no effect and if only the setting in 'Oversampling' is used. So the answer is yes, only the right setting is in effect. The whole oversampling is done as one step.

[tranz]

It might be that the interaction between HQP's filters, dithering and upsampling and those of your DAC, as well as the rest of the equipment provides too many permutations to create a manual for? And so in the end it is a perhaps just personal preference.

 

But, volume and clipping seems to be another crucial thing to set. Reminds a bit of the Amarra and Dirac testing days.

 

There are a few settings that make me immediately want to turn off the system, and others that last longer. I keep coming back to poly-sinc group and NS ones for PCM, although the sinc is another interesting one. Have not found my set and forget one yet as brightness/fatiguing seems to set in after a while. I might need to try upsampling to much higher frequencies and remove the Berkeley USB converter as I do not hear many others complain about brightness.

 

And as I mentioned above, on the Mac I have not found a bit perfect playback setting yet.

[sig8]

I have few questions about HQ Player:

 

1. Is it used for 2-ch or multi-ch, or both.

2. Can it be used with AO/JPlay on a CAPS machine.

3. Can it be run on a Synology NAS (guess not).

 

I am running a Synology NAS with Sonore Signature Rendu with a DirectStream DAC, with Sonore connected to DS via I2s.

 

I have another CAPS setup with AO/JPlay with USB going to DAC.

 

Thanks.

[Miska]

Thanks Miska for explanation. The question was about the left 'PCM defaults' 'Filter' drop box in the Settings dialog and you answered about the right 'Oversampling' drop box in 'SDM defaults'. The question was if for PCM to DSD the left setting in 'Filter' has no effect and if only the setting in 'Oversampling' is used. So the answer is yes, only the right setting is in effect. The whole oversampling is done as one step.

 

Yes, that's the case, the two boxes are mutually exclusive. "PCM Defaults" is used when output format is PCM, "SDM Defaults" is used when output format is SDM. Regardless of input (source) format. In the main window, content of the three first drop lists is changed accordingly, depending on PCM/SDM output format selection (rightmost drop list in main window).

 

The "DSDIFF/DSF Settings" dialog controls some extra details related to DSD source files.

[Miska]

1. Is it used for 2-ch or multi-ch, or both.

 

Both... There are options specific for multichannel output, such as speaker distance and level adjustments.

 

2. Can it be used with AO/JPlay on a CAPS machine.

 

I have never tried these myself, but I know AO developer has put some effort in making HQPlayer work OK and I believe JPlay developers too. So I would expect things to work reasonably well.

 

3. Can it be run on a Synology NAS (guess not).

 

If some NAS is running x86-64 variant of Linux, it could be possible with some serious hacking. But officially it is not supported and don't ask me for help since I don't own such NAS. I'm running storage services on the side on a regular Xeon machine.

[AnotherSpin]

Yes, that's the case, the two boxes are mutually exclusive. "PCM Defaults" is used when output format is PCM, "SDM Defaults" is used when output format is SDM. Regardless of input (source) format. In the main window, content of the three first drop lists is changed accordingly, depending on PCM/SDM output format selection (rightmost drop list in main window).

 

In this case, when PCM is up-sampled to DSD, PCM defaults shouldn't have any effect, right? But I clearly hear the difference when changing dither setting between NS4, NS5, NS9 or 'none'. How it might be? Also, why after change of filter in PCM defaults from 'poly-sinc' to 'none' sound disappears (again during up-sampling PCM to DSD)? Thank you.

[Miska]

In this case, when PCM is up-sampled to DSD, PCM defaults shouldn't have any effect, right? But I clearly hear the difference when changing dither setting between NS4, NS5, NS9 or 'none'. How it might be?

 

I have no idea...

 

Also, why after change of filter in PCM defaults from 'poly-sinc' to 'none' sound disappears (again during up-sampling PCM to DSD)? Thank you.

 

When "none" is selected as PCM filter and output mode is set to PCM (in main window), there's special handling. If PCM Filter "none" has effect when "SDM" has been selected as output format from main window, then there's a bug somewhere...

 

Based on the logic I posted earlier, when "PCM" has been set as output mode, and "none" as filter, then HQPlayer is trying to match input and output, based on recognized DAC DSD capabilities (if it can do DSD, switch to DSD, otherwise convert DSD to 1/16th rate PCM).

 

So if your DAC cannot do DSD, filter is set to "none", and source file is DSD128 then it would try to play it converted to 352.8k PCM. If DAC doesn't support such rate, then the player refuses to play.

 

This can be tricky with certain DACs that have DoP support (curses of the DoP!) and can support DSD128 over DoP, but not 352.8k PCM. Marantz HD-DAC1 being an example of such. In this case, player has no way of knowing that the 352.8k PCM support advertised by the DAC is only for DoP and doesn't work with real PCM. In this case, attempting playback with 352.8k PCM output results in silence (and complaint on the DAC front panel display).

[AnotherSpin]

 

When "none" is selected as PCM filter and output mode is set to PCM (in main window), there's special handling. If PCM Filter "none" has effect when "SDM" has been selected as output format from main window, then there's a bug somewhere...

 

Based on the logic I posted earlier, when "PCM" has been set as output mode, and "none" as filter, then HQPlayer is trying to match input and output, based on recognized DAC DSD capabilities (if it can do DSD, switch to DSD, otherwise convert DSD to 1/16th rate PCM).

 

So if your DAC cannot do DSD, filter is set to "none", and source file is DSD128 then it would try to play it converted to 352.8k PCM. If DAC doesn't support such rate, then the player refuses to play.

 

This can be tricky with certain DACs that have DoP support (curses of the DoP!) and can support DSD128 over DoP, but not 352.8k PCM. Marantz HD-DAC1 being an example of such. In this case, player has no way of knowing that the 352.8k PCM support advertised by the DAC is only for DoP and doesn't work with real PCM. In this case, attempting playback with 352.8k PCM output results in silence (and complaint on the DAC front panel display).

 

DAC used here is Schiit Loki, it works in DSD mode only. I up-sample PCM always, also because Loki can not play PCM. When PCM defaults filter is set to 'none' there is no sound. But when Direct DSD is un-checked in DSDIFF there is a sound. Also this mode (PCM defaults filter is 'none', Direct DSD un-checked) seem to give different sound than PCM defaults filter is 'poly-sinc', Direct DSD checked.

 

Mac OS.

[Miska]

DAC used here is Schiit Loki, it works in DSD mode only. I up-sample PCM always, also because Loki can not play PCM. When PCM defaults filter is set to 'none' there is no sound. But when Direct DSD is un-checked in DSDIFF there is a sound. Also this mode (PCM defaults filter is 'none', Direct DSD un-checked) seem to give different sound than PCM defaults filter is 'poly-sinc', Direct DSD checked.

 

I will try to re-check that all combinations work correctly with Loki on OS X.

 

Key question here is what is selected as output format in the HQPlayer main window. "PCM" or "SDM (DSD)"? HQPlayer cannot know in this case that the DAC doesn't support PCM although it claims to support all kinds of PCM. So in such cases if you try to play PCM, it looks like the player is happily playing but there's no sound (because DAC just mutes it's output).

 

This would be more straightforward with ASIO on Windows or on Linux, where the DAC can clearly tell "I don't support any PCM, only DSD at following rates..." DoP doesn't really work well in a case where corresponding PCM rate is missing.

[AnotherSpin]

I will try to re-check that all combinations work correctly with Loki on OS X.

 

Key question here is what is selected as output format in the HQPlayer main window. "PCM" or "SDM (DSD)"? HQPlayer cannot know in this case that the DAC doesn't support PCM although it claims to support all kinds of PCM. So in such cases if you try to play PCM, it looks like the player is happily playing but there's no sound (because DAC just mutes it's output).

 

To the key question - in fact I never touch this menu in main window. I use HQPlayer only with Loki, and because of this the main window setting is "SDM (DSD)" always.

[tranz]

One other thing that I am wondering is whether someone else has done this and really noticed an audible difference, and that is sticking a for-audio-created NAA box in between the HQ Player and a Mac. For example, when using the more CPU intensive filters for DSD upsampling I do not last long, compared with the -2s versions of that filter that are much less fatiguing.

 

The only one I can think of is the Sonore's box. There were reports on home-brews but they were not that glowing.

 

Cheers

[alubis]

Dont understand this at all. Have bought the HQPlayer but I really don't know how to set it up properly, I mean which filter to use, which dither to use and so on....

 

Miska, perhaps you could write a new user manual, all consumers are not not PC or MAC profis like you and other members here, but they also want to use your player with the best possible settings and filters.

 

This old thread might help a bit:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/hqplayer-resampling-filter-setup-guide-ordinary-person-13298/#post177180

[Murmelbier]

Thanks.

[tranz]

One thing that is counter-intuitive to me, and perhaps more is happening when selecting dithering.

 

Why would you not set dithering to "None" unless you are down-sampling, which would rarely be a use case for HQP?

 

For example if you have a 24 bit or 32 bit recording and need to play it back on a 16 bit DAC, then you would use dithering, but never the other way around.

 

Cheers

[bogi]

In this case, when PCM is up-sampled to DSD, PCM defaults shouldn't have any effect, right? But I clearly hear the difference when changing dither setting between NS4, NS5, NS9 or 'none'. How it might be? Also, why after change of filter in PCM defaults from 'poly-sinc' to 'none' sound disappears (again during up-sampling PCM to DSD)? Thank you.

 

Miska, AnotherSpin is right based on my experience. Dither settings appear only in 'PCM Defaults' left pane, but they have effect with PCM to DSD conversion. It seems dither is applied with 'SDM defaults' 'Oversampling'. My post from yesterday http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/hq-player-20293/index79.html#post423292 is also about dither, not only about DAC bits and it is related to PCM to DSD.

[AnotherSpin]

At least some PCM defaults have effect in PCM to DSD up-sampling, such as dither, and I believe filter selection too. Just because I can set filter to "none" only when DirectSDM in DSDIFF/DSF settings is unchecked I would like to find out now whether "conversion type", "integrator" and "noise filter" have any effect as well.

[Miska]

Miska, AnotherSpin is right based on my experience. Dither settings appear only in 'PCM Defaults' left pane, but they have effect with PCM to DSD conversion. It seems dither is applied with 'SDM defaults' 'Oversampling'. My post from yesterday http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/hq-player-20293/index79.html#post423292 is also about dither, not only about DAC bits and it is related to PCM to DSD.

 

Dither code is not called at all when output is SDM because it is not relevant for that case at all... Same goes for the DAC bits setting.

 

Same for the modulator setting when output is PCM, code isn't called because it is not relevant.

 

In the main window, content and meaning of the two first drop lists is changed when you change between PCM and SDM output format in the main window. First list changes between possible filter sets and second list changes between dither and modulator sets.

 

Only thing that the "PCM Defaults" and "SDM Defaults" do, is to set what is the selection by default in the main window drop lists.

[Miska]

At least some PCM defaults have effect in PCM to DSD up-sampling, such as dither, and I believe filter selection too. Just because I can set filter to "none" only when DirectSDM in DSDIFF/DSF settings is unchecked I would like to find out now whether "conversion type", "integrator" and "noise filter" have any effect as well.

 

As I said, "none" is part of special "follow the input" special case. There is complex logic checking what to do depending whether:

1) Source is DSD or PCM

2) Output is DSD or PCM

3) PCM filter is set to "none"

4) Direct SDM is enabled

 

Essentially Filter=none DirectSDM=enabled means "don't do any rate conversion ever".

[Miska]

One thing that is counter-intuitive to me, and perhaps more is happening when selecting dithering.

 

Why would you not set dithering to "None" unless you are down-sampling, which would rarely be a use case for HQP?

 

For example if you have a 24 bit or 32 bit recording and need to play it back on a 16 bit DAC, then you would use dithering, but never the other way around.

 

If you do any processing, like upsampling or volume control, you should have some dither selected. This is because the calculated sample values will have full 64-bit floating point precision and DAC cannot utilize such precision, it needs to be limited to 24- or 32-bit values. Doing this value range limiting without dither produces quantization distortion.

 

So the only case when dither is not needed is bit-perfect output.

[Miska]

To the key question - in fact I never touch this menu in main window. I use HQPlayer only with Loki, and because of this the main window setting is "SDM (DSD)" always.

 

With Loki, select something other than "none" as default PCM filter. It doesn't matter what, as long as it is not "none".

 

If you have only DSD64 content, keep "Direct SDM" checked unless you'd like to use volume control or convolution engine with DSD sources. If you have also DSD128 or DSD256 content, uncheck the "Direct SDM" to allow conversion of these to DSD64 output. If you uncheck the "Direct SDM" then the integrator setting also applies to you for DSD sources.

 

Then select your favorite oversampling filter and modulator as "SDM Default".

 

Then, as you said, keep "SDM (DSD)" selected as output format in main window.

[bogi]

Dither code is not called at all when output is SDM because it is not relevant for that case at all... Same goes for the DAC bits setting.

 

Same for the modulator setting when output is PCM, code isn't called because it is not relevant.

 

In the main window, content and meaning of the two first drop lists is changed when you change between PCM and SDM output format in the main window. First list changes between possible filter sets and second list changes between dither and modulator sets.

 

Only thing that the "PCM Defaults" and "SDM Defaults" do, is to set what is the selection by default in the main window drop lists.

 

When I wrote yesterday my post http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/hq-player-20293/index79.html#post423292 I forgot to mention I had [x] DirectSDM checked on the DSDIFF/DSF Settings dialog.

 

I am playing 44.1k/16b and 96k/24b recordings. SDM(DSD) output is chosen, my DAC shows DSD128 (through DoP).

 

Please trace the differences a) and b) in processing with such PCM to DSD playback when:

 

1. dither setting is for example NS5

a) [x] DirectSDM is checked

b) [ ] DirectSDM is not checked (volume is set to -3dB)

 

2. [x] DirectSDM is checked

a) NS5 is set

b) NS9 is set

 

3. [x] DirectSDM is checked

a) none 'Filter' set in 'PCM defaults'

b) poly-sinc set as 'Filter' in 'PCM defaults'

 

My result is: In the case of DirectSDM checked both PCM defaults and SDM defaults are in action. My guess is that with [x] DirectSDM PCM type of upsampling is done to the rate required for DSD playback rate and then PCM is converted to DSD without DSD type of upsampling.

Why do I think that:

You say with PCM to DSD 'PCM defaults' 'Filter' has no effect.

But: With [x] DirectSDM checked

1. I am setting 'Filter' to none and playback starts immediately (less than 1 second).

2. I am setting 'Filter' to poly-sinc and it tooks about 15 seconds on my notebook for playback to start, it is clear that the PCM filter was initialized! During that period, processor utilisation went to 100%, as usual. Please note I did not change the filter in the main window, but in the Settings dialog.

 

Then I can repeat the sequence 1. and 2. with the same result ...

[bogi]

Miska, I would yet to add the following to my previous post, please check it self:

 

For both cases 1. and 2. 'Filter' in 'PCM defaults' is set to none.

 

1. [ ] DirectSDM is unchecked. In the main window most left drop box:

a) poly-sinc-2s ... playback starts within 1 second

b) poly-sinc ... playback starts within 15 seconds

 

2. [x] DirectSDM is checked. In the main window most left drop box:

it is unimportant, what is set in that drop box, playback always starts within 1 second and I do not hear any sonic difference. I assume SDM oversampling filters are not used in this case, no other explanation.

 

The bug are demonstrating also 2 following pictures, 'Filter' in 'PCM defaults' is still set to none. I am playing few seconds of a track. Then I stop playback. Then I change the oversampling filter in the most left drop box.

 

1. [ ] DirectSDM is unchecked. SDM bitrates are shown as expected. DAC shows DSD128.

2. [x] DirectSDM is checked. PCM bitrates are unexpectedly showing. DAC shows 44.1k. That indicates me bug and it corresponds to what I wrote previously.