Mutec MC-3+

[Confused]

I am considering modifying my Mutec MC3+USB to allow connection of a decent LPSU. I must admit that I am a little reluctant to perform surgery on an item still under guarantee, but I'm guessing these things should be reliable enough that this fairly low risk. The question is, is it worth the risk and effort? Any advice from those that have tried this?

[Confused]

What happened to the Mutec Ref 10 master clock that was 'immanent' for a large part of 2016? Have I missed something?

[Confused]

I have been trying the new upsampling features in Roon. In my set-up I am running a Windows 10 PC, Ethernet to a microRendu, USB to a Mutec MC3+USB. If I set the mR's RoonReady settings to DoP, then I can send DSD64 to the Mutec, this sends PCM 176.4 to the DAC (a Devialet in my case), everything appears to be as it should be.

 

If I set the mR's RoonReady settings to native DSD, I get no sound and loose the pull down menu options in Roon to upsample to DSD. Am I doing something wrong? Or is it a simple case that the Mutec will only accept DoP? I have now tried almost everything I can think of, and it simply does not work. Can it be done?

 

A second question, when running successfully using DoP, I cannot find anyway to set Roon above DSD64, there is no option in the menus for DSD128 for example. Am I missing something?

[Confused]

As an edit to my earlier post. A bit of tinkering and a reboot, and I can indeed run DoP128. So, everything on the DoP side appears correct. However, if I set the mR to accept native DSD, nothing works. So the issue is simple, I can set the mR to accept native DSD, but then Roon looses the DSD options, nothing works.

[Confused]

I have been trying the new upsampling features in Roon. In my set-up I am running a Windows 10 PC, Ethernet to a microRendu, USB to a Mutec MC3+USB. If I set the mR's RoonReady settings to DoP, then I can send DSD64 to the Mutec, this sends PCM 176.4 to the DAC (a Devialet in my case), everything appears to be as it should be.

 

If I set the mR's RoonReady settings to native DSD, I get no sound and loose the pull down menu options in Roon to upsample to DSD. Am I doing something wrong? Or is it a simple case that the Mutec will only accept DoP? I have now tried almost everything I can think of, and it simply does not work. Can it be done?

 

A second question, when running successfully using DoP, I cannot find anyway to set Roon above DSD64, there is no option in the menus for DSD128 for example. Am I missing something?

I'm replying to my own issue because it looks like this one is solved, at least with respect to the Mutec itself. It looks like the issue is in fact with the mR / Linux. Basically there isn't a native DSD patch available at this time for the Mutec MC3+USB on Linux. I'll follow up the Linux patch issue on one of the Sonore threads.

[Confused]

32 minutes ago, coogee.de said:

But a BNC S/P-DIF input. You just need an adapter or a Cinch->BNC cable.

The MC3+USB does actually come with a S/PDIFcoax to BNC adaptor.  It is a very cheap and basic item, cable purists would not like it!  I run a CD player digital out to the Mutec and it works fine, this only gets used very occasionally, I think if it was my main source I would get something a little nicer.

[Confused]

16 minutes ago, mourip said:

Here is another data point from a reply that I received from Mutec regarding using the Mutec to act as wordclock for the Rednet preceding it.

 

"...thank you for buying the MC-3+USB. I hope you are satisfied so far.

We are generally not recommending clocking the source with the MC-3+USB's clock signals. That would cause a digital signal loop sooner or later. Be careful!

This is a very interesting comment.  It makes me wonder about the very good reports regarding using SOtM-sCLK-EX to provide clock signals to various components 'in the chain'.  To me, sending a wordclock signal to a Rednet is similar in principle, although maybe there is a subtly I have missed here.  What I am thinking is that is there a risk of a 'digital signal loop' with these SOtM based chains of clocked devices? 

 

Indeed, I have been thinking about using the REF 10 to provide a reference signal to both the MC3+USB, with the MC3+USB providing the wordclock to a SMS-200Ultra.  Maybe this is a bad idea?

[Confused]

On ‎09‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 2:34 PM, mourip said:

Regarding the capacitor. Probably anything over 15v and 50mf would be fine. I think that mine was 25v and 680mf because I just had it handy. I would caution about using one that is too large in capacitance as it might trigger over-current protection when you turn on your LPS, assuming it has that protection. Otherwise I would vote for 50 to 1000mf. I put the cap in there sort of reflexively after building many power supplies for analog devices where there are often transient needs for power. I would image that the Mutec uses a pretty unvarying amount. Just a guess. Anyway the results were certainly good!

This may be a very stupid question, but to clarify I am not an expert in this area.  I have an interest in doing the LPSU mod on my own Mutec MC3+USB.  I had assumed that once access has been obtained it was a case of removing the Mutec's SMPS, and then connecting the power from a LPSU to the Mutec's mainboard power input as previously fed by the internal SMPS.  But is a capacitor needed?  Or is this just a subtly of the 'longish' LPSU cable you mentioned? 

[Confused]

A MC3+ review published today, quite a good read:

 

http://hifipig.com/mutec-mc-3-smart-clock-usb-master-clockreclockerspdif-converter/#more-34993

[Confused]

9 hours ago, nbpf said:

If I am not mistaken, in most of the posts in this thread the MC3+ USB has been deployed as a USB convertor and reclocker. Has anybody tried to use it as a reclocker of a SPDIF stream? I was thinking of trying it connected to the SPDIF output of an Allo DigiOne. Can I expect significant improvements or just differences? Thanks, nbpf

I generally use my MC3+USB with a microRendu, so USB to Mutec and AES/EBU out to a Devialet amp.  I have also tried it with a mid priced Pioneer Blu-Ray player, a reasonable quality CD player and Toslink from a Panasonic TV.  What I have found is that the Mutec offers an improvement in all cases, but it does sound best when fed by the mR.  I think that the reason it sounds best with the mR is simply because the mR is the best thing I have I have used so far to feed the Mutec.  To put this in simple terms, I think the Mutec will improve most things that are connected to it by whatever input used, but to a degree it is 'transparent' to the source, so the better the quality of the feed, the better the quality of the output. 

[Confused]

13 hours ago, julian.david said:

 

Thanks for sharing! Funny you should ask about Roon: we're actually in the process of becoming a partner and getting our USB devices (MC-3+USB and MC-1.2) approved for the Roon Tested program. Roon Ready is a slightly different animal that is only available when a device can be a network audio device rather than a simple USB interface. So that doesn't apply for MUTECs products. Anyway though, I expect this process to be completed soon and I'm sure you'll hear about it.

 

Julian

I am a little puzzled by this I have to say, why exactly does a USB to S/PDIF converter need to be 'Roon Tested'?  My MC3+USB is happily running Roon thanks to the micoRendu that is feeding via USB, a set up that works splendidly, but I struggle to understand why a MC3+USB needs to be 'Roon Tested' any more than the  amplifier and speakers that follow it.  Surely it makes no difference to the USB feed if the music player is Roon, JRiver, iTunes or anything else?  I have no problem with Mutec products being Roon tested, I am just genuinely curious as to what this means in practice.  Can the MC3+USB be optimised in any way to suit a USB feed that just happened to originate in Roon?

[Confused]

My understanding is that the MC3+USB will only output PCM, irrespective of input.  This is a quote from Mutec's Julian David earlier in this thread:

 

The MC-3+USB does not pass through DSD64 without converting to PCM as this would either require re-clocking the native DSD signal or disabling the re-clocking stage entirely. If we were to disable the re-clocking, then there wouldn't really be a benefit to having the MC-3+USB in the chain.

[Confused]

3 hours ago, mourip said:

Does anyone know if a M3+USB can accept AES and USB without switching mode on the front panel?

 

I would like to be able to play from either a USB input or an AES input but not at the same time.

I currently have mine connected to my SOtM chain via USB and a Blu-ray player via AES.  The AES input is 75 ohm BNC, so for something like this you need a BNC to RCA adaptor (one is included with the MC3+USB) or use a RCA to BNC cable.  You do have to manually select which input you want to listen to, there are two selection buttons on the front panel, "menu" and "select".   You can use the menu button just once to get the unit in the right mode, from then on the select button does nothing but select the input.  Once it is set like this, it is two presses of the select button to switch one way, and then four to switch back.  So yes, you need to select the input manually, but it is very easy to do.

[Confused]

6 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

Has anyone compared the sonic performance of USB input against coax? I'm curious of others' findings. 

I can only say something very similar to @m5sime above.  The best source that I have to feed the MC3+USB is a USB source (sMS-200Ultra +tX-USBultra), and this gives the best overall result.  I also run a relatively cheap Blu-ray / CD / SADC player via S/PDIF to the MC3+USB (Pioneer BDP-450).  The SOtM kit wth the MC3+USB comes out on top as a combination, but the uplift to the performance to Pioneer is significant.  The basic conclusion is that the MC3+USB is transparent to and dependent on the quality of the source, but provides a nice uplift in performance with pretty much anything you can try with it.  I have also run my TV to the MC3+USB via Toslink, again an improvement, but obviously you are not hitting the level of performance form something like the SOtM kit via USB.

[Confused]

1 hour ago, Cortes said:

 

@Confused,

in case you have tried the combinations I post below, what 's your opinion on: 

a) sms-200 ultra`+reclocker (as Ref10,  Sotm's, cybershaft) v.s. sms-200 ultra +tx-USBultra  

b) sms-200 +tx-USBultra vs. sms-200Ultra+tx-usbUltra

thanks!. 

I am not sure I can help here, although to be honest I am not sure if I fully understand point a)

 

To take these one at a time:

 

Point a) I have never tried a Cybershaft or SOtM reference clock, although I do have the Mutec REF10 and MC3+USB per my signature.  It would be possible for me to try the sMS-200Utra + REF10 MC3+USB versus sMS-200Utra +tX-USBultra (with or without the REF10).  However, as one would use the AES/EBU input of my Devialet and the other the USB input of my Devialet, I am not sure what this would tell anyone.  The point being is that it is generally reported that these inputs to the Devialet do sound a little different, with most that have tried it preferring the AES/EBU input over the USB input, so the most likely result is that the  sMS-200Utra + REF10 MC3+USB  combination would win, simply because it utilises the preferred AES/EBU input.  This would tell you more about Devialet amps than it would regarding the upstream kit.

 

Point b) I have never tried an sMS-200.

 

Sorry I can't be of more help!

[Confused]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 2:27 AM, LowMidHigh said:

I have a feeling the less than stellar USB performance is why a stack of MC3USB is needed to clean up the signal further. 

 

I doubt cascading will do much when spdif/Aes is the source. But I'll find out soon... 

1

The most pervasive theory as to why stacking MC3+USB's work is that the last MC3 before the DAC is already been fed a well-clocked signal, so this last MC3 has to work less hard, and hence produces less noise, jitter etc.  It is just a theory though, nobody seems to be able to measure this stuff.

 

From my own observational experience, I have definitely found that the MC3+USB is sensitive to whatever you use to feed it.  So the end result is different if the USB feed is from a microRendu, sMS-200ultra, tX-USBultra.  Even changing my sMS-200Ultra to the Neo version made a clear difference.  This is much the same with the other inputs, where I have tried different CD players and also my TV via Toslink.  There are two ways of looking at this, one is to say that the MC3+USB is transparent to the source feed, a second way is perhaps to say that the MC3+USB's USB input is inadequate, not removing all noise, jitter or whatever else from whatever is feeding it.  It is a fine product in my opinion, but is not a cure for all possible upstream issues.  Depending on how you look at this, it could be considered that we are saying pretty much the same thing.

[Confused]

For what it's worth, I think the Mutec MC3+USB has given me the best "bang for buck" in terms of a sound quality hike versus any audio kit I have bought for a very long time.  Excellent, no nonsense kit.

[Confused]

43 minutes ago, WAM said:

Considered the Mutec for a while. But no dealers around, nobody in the neighbourhood familiar with this kind of devices, not the faintest idea how such a device would work out in my set-up(s). Pulled the trigger last week, and ordered one. Integrated it in my head-fi-station. Holy cow... So much more speed, detail, etc.

 

Moved the Mutec to our main system, same thingy. Just ordered another one.

 

The postings in this thread were helpful, to put it mildly, thanks and cheers guys! 🍺

 

 

Out of interest, what DAC’s are you using in the respective systems?

[Confused]

One thought, if you used Roon or similar to upsample everything fed to the Network Bridge to a constant rate, say 24/192, could you then get away with using one MC3+for just the 48kHz family of rates?  I presume this would work.

 

@Patatorz - I am curious.  I note the issues with using the Mutec kit with the Network Bridge, this is clear.  But what was the sound quality like with the Mutec kit, and any sound quality difference between using REF10 + Rossini versus REF10 + MC3+?

[Confused]

1 hour ago, sunbear56 said:

I've absolutely no idea if this approach will sound better or worse than direct re-clocking through the MC3+ USB as in SwissBear's second diagram. I was just intrigued to see if this third approach would work. The main point is that, given an external Ref-10 or Cybershaft (in my case) ref clock, either will sound vastly better than the DcS bridge alone! 

 

Are you planning to try this "both ways"?  I have no idea if it will sound better one way or another, but it would be interesting to know, assuming you can discern any audible differences between the two approaches.

[Confused]

Another very interesting set of measurements from GoldenSound, see link below.

https://goldensound.audio/2021/10/05/mutec-mc3-usb-ddc-reclocker-measurements/

In summary, noise levels are very low indeed, which is good. Jitter via the BNC output is not so good. Jitter via AES/EBU output is much better, but falls some way short of other DDC's available now.

I thought the very decent noise level measurements were interesting, particularly as the Mutec uses a switch mode power supply. I know that a few owners have performed modifications to use a linear power supply, but looking at the measurements I would say that this is perhaps not too much to worry about.

Jitter performance via AES/EBU is reasonable, but it would appear that the Mutec is beaten in this regard by other DCC's, and indeed by the humble Pi2AES. I am not that surprised by this. I think that products of this type are in a very rapidly developing area of technology, and in these terms at least it is now a relatively old design, I recall that I first became aware of the device in early 2015, and even then it was based on the previous MC3+. So an almost seven year old product now, which typically for devices of this type would place it near the end of it's product cycle. During this time, audio clock performance has been steadily moving on. This could go some way towards explaining my own subjective observations. I found that the MC3+USB provided a very nice uplift in sound quality with my previous Devialet D800 Expert. With the later Pro model, I found using the MC3+USB sounded pretty much equivalent to Devialet's built in AIR streaming.

Although reading the GoldenSound article, it also looks like the Mutec's performance is held back a little by the some aspects of it's design, in terms of the very flexible functionality offered. The Mutec does have it's roots in the world of Pro audio, which in some regards may give it a disadvantage in comparison to some devices such as the Singxer which are focused purely on domestic audio.

Some interesting words about clock stacking too. It appears that this does not work, or at least this is what the measurements seem to be suggesting. Some rather negative comments regarding build quality too, which surprised me a little. Although my own MC3+USB has been in continuous use for over five years now and has worked flawlessly.

All of this also makes me wonder how the MC3+USB performs with an external clock, and indeed if a more domestic audio based DCC would perform better with something like the Mutec REF10? But that is another story entirely.

 

Many thanks to @GoldenOnefor another fascinating set of measurements, keep up the good work sir!

[Confused]

On 10/21/2021 at 9:20 AM, Nikhil said:

 

Very interesting read.  Thanks for sharing.

 

As a Mutec MC3+ USB owner I was a little surprised at the observations on the build quality.

In comparison the boards on the Singxer SU2 look absolutely flawless.

 

 

.

 

Yes, agreed. That said, I bought my MC3+USB over six years ago now. In that time it has been continuously powered up, and has worked flawlessly. So based on my statistically insignificant sample of one, there is not too much to worry about in terms of reliability.