High-Resolution Downloads to die for…

[Boris75]

I have the Kunzel high-res 1812. It's probably the worst performance/recording of the piece I've ever heard. Sure, it gets plenty loud when they fire off the cannon, but sheer volume is no substitute for quality.

 

I share your view that Kunzel's DSD recording of the 1812 is plain musically, though it is very well recorded, and the cannon fire is excellent. My favourite version is Dorati's which is very well recorded BUT very poorly mastered on CD with huge digital clipping. I hope Dorati's recording gets re-issued properly one day, ideally by an audiophile label.

[regnaD kciN]

I share your view that Kunzel's DSD recording of the 1812 is plain musically, though it is very well recorded, and the cannon fire is excellent. My favourite version is Dorati's which is very well recorded BUT very poorly mastered on CD with huge digital clipping. I hope Dorati's recording gets re-issued properly one day, ideally by an audiophile label.

 

Apparently, the problem with the Dorati (and why it was reissued so late in the Mercury series on CD, despite its fame, and was never included in the SACDs) was that the original master tape is lost, and they had to remaster it from a backup copy at least one generation downstream, possibly more.

[regnaD kciN]

Ping-pong effect spoils many late 50’s jazz record indeed. I more or less got used to those modern jazz records where the drum set extends from one loud speaker to the other, but I guess I would never cope with ping-pong.

 

Not just jazz and not just from the '50s. Why do you think the Beatles mono box was so popular? Because the stereo mixes of their albums were often downright weird, like having all the voices in one channel and all the instruments in the other. Even more ridiculous were the early Bob Dylan stereos -- taking an inherently mono sound (one musician singing while playing guitar and harmonica), they "stereofied" it by putting his voice dead-center, his guitar far-right, and his harmonica far-left…and, since the same mic was used for voice and harmonica, that meant quickly panning the signal from center to left and back again on every harmonica break. Really disconcerting.

[CatManDo]

Could you explain "ping pong effect" to me? I have a several thousand jazz recordings from 1922-2013, but never noticed an instrument jumping from one speaker to the other Maybe just an occasional mixing effect on some late 60's psycheledic funk jazz recordings ...

 

If an instrument panned to one channel means "ping pong" too you, then you shouldn't listen to jazz, because this is a timeless mixing choice that you can hear on many contemporary recordings as well. Should the instruments all be grouped in the middle, quasi-mono?

 

On most jazz stereo recordings made until the 1970's, the mixing is very basic. An instrument is panned to the right, left or middle (3 possible positions), and if this is well balanced it sounds fine. Where it becomes weird is when there is no sound coming from the "middle channel", but I have only heard one single such recording so far (Tommy Turrentine eponymous album on Audio fidelity SACD)

[alainbil]

I meant records with nothing in the middle, for example the sax and the piano in one speaker with the bass and the drums in the right speaker (both on top of each other). Many Jazz records of the late 50’s and early 60 are like that.

 

Incidentally I have a live Little Richard record where his voice and piano are in one speaker and the audience yelling in the other. Nothing between.

[Leica]

I will agree with you, however, when you write that "the old Living Stereo SACD is nothing in comparison." In fact, it is literally "nothing," because it doesn't exist.

 

I got mixed up with Reiner recordings all being Living Stereo SACDs. This one obviously isn't. This particular recording to which I am referring to is from is issued on XRCD. It is Reiner again and the year of the recording is 1956.

[CatManDo]

I meant records with nothing in the middle, for example the sax and the piano in one speaker with the bass and the drums in the right speaker (both on top of each other). Many Jazz records of the late 50’s and early 60 are like that.

 

Can you list some titles? As I wrote, I have only encountered one such recording among thousands.

[alainbil]

Can you list some titles? As I wrote, I have only encountered one such recording among thousands.

 

A few examples of jazz records I own with all instruments either in the right speaker or in the left speaker

 

Ornette Coleman Something else

Ornette Coleman This is our music

John Coltrane Giant Steps

John Coltrane My favorite things

Herbie Hancock Maiden Voyage

Sonny Rollins Way Out West

George Russell Sextet Ezz-Thetics

[Robert Hutton]

A few examples of jazz records I own with all instruments either in the right speaker or in the left speaker

 

Ornette Coleman Something else

Ornette Coleman This is our music

John Coltrane Giant Steps

John Coltrane My favorite things

Herbie Hancock Maiden Voyage

Sonny Rollins Way Out West

George Russell Sextet Ezz-Thetics

 

LOL. When Rudy Van Gelder remastered the Blue Note catalog and moved the hard panned images closer to the center, creating a near mono center image spread out on both sides, he was drawn and quartered in the usual audiophile communities for tampering with the mixes. You just can't win, someone will always be on the other side.

 

They are what they are, if it bothers you, there is lots of great musc to listen to.

[goldsdad]

Herbie should be centred and other players on left and right on Maiden Voyage.

[REShaman]

Herbie should be centred and other players on left and right on Maiden Voyage.

 

Maiden Voyage, HDtracks DL 192/24, Freddie Hubbard's trumpet left, Herbie Hancock's piano center left with Ron Carter's bass behind Herbie and ever so slightly to the right of him, Tony Williams's drums and George Coleman's tenor saxophone right.

Enjoy the music,

Richard

[Snowmonkey]

Isn't the whole point of stereo imaging that you should be able to close your eyes and sense that the music is coming from the performers spaced naturally in front of you? The music shouldn't sound like it's coming "out of the speakers" at all.

[REShaman]

Isn't the whole point of stereo imaging that you should be able to close your eyes and sense that the music is coming from the performers spaced naturally in front of you? The music shouldn't sound like it's coming "out of the speakers" at all.

 

Yes. To me? If I might add to your remarks, given the locations, I meant in my listening room where they are currently performing. ;>}

Best,

Richard

[goldsdad]

Maiden Voyage, HDtracks DL 192/24, Freddie Hubbard's trumpet left, Herbie Hancock's piano center left with Ron Carter's bass behind Herbie and ever so slightly to the right of him, Tony Williams's drums and George Coleman's tenor saxophone right.

Enjoy the music,

Richard

 

 

Thanks, that'll teach me to not trust my aural memory.

 

It's a pity there's no UK retailer of the Blue Note hires. Or does anybody know different?

[REShaman]

Thanks, that'll teach me to not trust my aural memory.

 

It's a pity there's no UK retailer of the Blue Note hires. Or does anybody know different?

 

Why? You wrote essentially the same, just the shorthand version. I just get an assist;>}

Enjoy the music,

Richard

[goldsdad]

I was wrong in thinking of Ron Carter as far over to the right, not close to centre.

[REShaman]

I was wrong in thinking of Ron Carter as far over to the right, not close to centre.

 

Can that be controlled post production? Or in the control room? I have four editions, redbook, Hybrid SACD, SHM-SACD, 192/24. In any case, the music is glorious.

 

Enjoy the music,

Richard

[goldsdad]

I guess any post-production positioning of players would depend on how the sessions were recorded.

 

Anyway, I'm about to wind down with my rip of the 2011 Analogue Productions as last album of this evening.

[firedog]

A few examples of jazz records I own with all instruments either in the right speaker or in the left speaker

 

Ornette Coleman Something else

Ornette Coleman This is our music

John Coltrane Giant Steps

John Coltrane My favorite things

Herbie Hancock Maiden Voyage

Sonny Rollins Way Out West

George Russell Sextet Ezz-Thetics

 

Just listened to a bit of "My Favorite Things" and "Maiden Voyage (HD Tracks)". There is at least an illusion of some of the music being in the center. Doesn't sound anything like the early Beatles' stereo versions, where you clearly hear 2 distinct channels, say vocals in one and instruments in another. So nothing to complain about, from what I can hear. A reasonable use of the stereo effect.

[CatManDo]

A few examples of jazz records I own with all instruments either in the right speaker or in the left speaker

 

Ornette Coleman Something else

Ornette Coleman This is our music

John Coltrane Giant Steps

John Coltrane My favorite things

Herbie Hancock Maiden Voyage

Sonny Rollins Way Out West

George Russell Sextet Ezz-Thetics

 

Thanks for the list, Alain. I have all those albums, will check them out and report back.

 

I remember Roy DuNann recordings for Contemporary - in this list "Somethin' else" and "Way out west" - being hard-panned, but usually there is an instrument in the middle as well.

 

I didn't intend this to become a debate about recording techniques, but when someones says 1950's jazz stereo recordings are difficult to listen to because of a ping-pong effect, I find that highly exaggerated.

[regnaD kciN]

I got mixed up with Reiner recordings all being Living Stereo SACDs. This one obviously isn't. This particular recording to which I am referring to is from is issued on XRCD. It is Reiner again and the year of the recording is 1956.

 

I thought you might have had the Reiner in mind. That performance is not very highly regarded; somewhat low-key (and, missing the cannon fire, never an audiophile demonstration disc). Likewise, the recording, while decent, will never be considered one of the "great RCAs." I've never heard the XRCD remastering; but I've always found the JVC XRCD Living Stereo discs to be somewhat hit-or-miss -- while the majority I've heard are excellent, you occasionally find one of their discs that is not only not better, but considerably worse than RCA's Redbook disc (their release of Munch's "Organ" Symphony is a case in point), let alone the latter's SACD (if any).

[alainbil]

Thanks for the list, Alain. I have all those albums, will check them out and report back.

 

I remember Roy DuNann recordings for Contemporary - in this list "Somethin' else" and "Way out west" - being hard-panned, but usually there is an instrument in the middle as well.

 

I didn't intend this to become a debate about recording techniques, but when someones says 1950's jazz stereo recordings are difficult to listen to because of a ping-pong effect, I find that highly exaggerated.

 

I would definitively not say that "1950's jazz stereo recordings are difficult to listen to because of a ping-pong effect," I would rather say that

 

- Those records are a counter example to the belief that the late 50’s were a golden age of recordings, never surpassed

- It is pity that many great jazz recordings of the late 50’s are harmed by unnatural stereo imaging. It is a pity because this was perfectly avoidable; this is due to bad use of the recording equipment, not to technological limitations.

[alainbil]

Not just jazz and not just from the '50s. Why do you think the Beatles mono box was so popular? Because the stereo mixes of their albums were often downright weird, like having all the voices in one channel and all the instruments in the other. Even more ridiculous were the early Bob Dylan stereos -- taking an inherently mono sound (one musician singing while playing guitar and harmonica), they "stereofied" it by putting his voice dead-center, his guitar far-right, and his harmonica far-left…and, since the same mic was used for voice and harmonica, that meant quickly panning the signal from center to left and back again on every harmonica break. Really disconcerting.

 

I have a Bob Dylan CD titled Bob Dylan, with a very young Bob Dylan on the cover; Bob is singing and playing the harmonica in the left speaker, with the guitar in the right, with the guitar position fluctuating a little bit.

 

Too bad my preamplifier does not have a mono switch.

[regnaD kciN]

I have a Bob Dylan CD titled Bob Dylan, with a very young Bob Dylan on the cover; Bob is singing and playing the harmonica in the left speaker, with the guitar in the right, with the guitar position fluctuating a little bit.

 

Too bad my preamplifier does not have a mono switch.

 

FWIW, the Dylan mono box (every album through John Wesley Harding) is outstanding. I'm pretty sure it's still available.

[Boris75]

POSTSCRIPT: There is a second 24/96 download of The Planets available from HDTracks, a DG recording with the Boston Symphony led by William Steinberg (of whom you'll be hearing more in this series). The Steinberg recording was my first introduction to this piece as a teenager, and I continue to hold a strong emotional attachment to it. While not quite as perceptive an interpretation as Boult's, it, too, is an excellent performance. The problem is the recording, which, while certainly fine for cutting to LPs in 1971, has DG's typical bass-shy sound (think the 1962 Karajan Beethoven Symphony cycle), which shortchanges The Planets dramatically when heard in a format capable of encoding powerful bass without risk of cartridge mis-tracking. Not a first choice; however Steinberg's recording also comes with a wonderful, idiomatic performance of Strauss's Also Sprach Zarathustra, highlighted by the characterful performance of the solo violin part by Joseph Silverstein. If you don't already have a Zarathustra, this would be a fine choice. and Steinberg's Planets, while not a substitute for Boult's, would certainly be a worthy supplement to it.

 

I listened to this recording yesterday and very much agree with your assessment. This recording of The Planets and Zarathustra is so bass shy that I was tempted to boost the level of my sub... It is one of these cases where I think that high res does not bring much to the table except highlighting the deficiencies of the original master.