Yes Close To The Edge HDTracks

[chriss71]

Often, HDT also doesn't get the proper info from the labels when they buy the rights to sell hi-res versions. The labels just aren't interested in supplying it, or are active trying not to supply it.

 

And here begins the problem... I understand that from their point of view. The less information the give, for the customer is it harder the make a buying decision. I am not sure, but their are alot people who regret buying some things. Look at Nirvana HDTracks Download. This is really a example where the remaster sucks...

In opposite look at the Blue Note Series, fantastic Music, fantastic Sound... this is how a High-Res Music should sound...

or the Green Day's Downloads, they blow the regular CD out of the water...

 

So, this said, I hope we get an answer from HDTracks...

OK, just one thing: How can WE (the customer) put pressure on the labels that we get this important information?

[Julf]

OK, just one thing: How can WE (the customer) put pressure on the labels that we get this important information?

 

Short of class action and truth in advertising lawsuits (and no, I am not advocating them), not much. The big labels don't make much money on the audiophile market segment, so why should they care? Their primary interest is fabricating the next justin bieber.

[jaccli]

I don't understand this MO FI thing I bought a few cds because of this site and feel ripped off, very expensive and not all that great . I will try YES Close to Edge and The Yes Album . BTY the stevie wonder fulfillingness first finale from hd tracks is great .

[chriss71]

I don't understand this MO FI thing I bought a few cds because of this site and feel ripped off, very expensive and not all that great.

 

Can you tell me what special titles? Normally the MoFi are really good (and most of the time the best sounding digital version out there). Though there are some stinkers in it...

[mav52]

Short of class action and truth in advertising lawsuits (and no, I am not advocating them), not much. The big labels don't make much money on the audiophile market segment, so why should they care? Their primary interest is fabricating the next justin bieber.

Spoken with a whole lot of truth.

[znpnine]

I downloaded all three yes albums in 24/96.

I thought all three were quite nice. I especially liked TYA. The bass on it is great!

Very happy all around. Great release!

[znpnine]

Forgot to mention this (from Yes facebook page):

 

You can now enjoy The Yes Album, Close to the Edge, and Going for the One as pristine master-quality audiophile downloads from HDtracks! Easy to download, playback and enjoy.

 

Best of all, HDTracks is offering a 15% discount when you use promo code* YES15 for the purchase of any Yes title available from the HDtracks store.

 

*This code expires on March 24, 2013 at midnight EST. Please remember to click 'apply discount code' before checking out. Note that once a discount code is applied you cannot add more items to your cart. This code can only be used once per customer.

[kennyb123]

I'm having a difficult time blaming HDTracks as I see them as a reseller - just like Amazon or SoundstageDirect or Music Direct. I don't blame these resellers when their web sites don't provide an account of the provenance of the recordings they sell. I blame the record label that provided them with the content.

 

Here's a listing at SoundstageDirect for CTTE on vinyl. Nothing at all is mentioned about the provenance of the masters. I place the blame with Friday Music as even on their website here all that they say is that they "worked with the Atlantic Records source tapes to deliver what (they) feel is the definitive master of this fine album" and that it was mastered by Joe Reagoso. That tells me only that the original master wasn't used.

 

HDTrack listing indicates that CTTE was "sourced from Analog Flat Master." That's not a lot to go on either. I hold Rhino/Elektra accountable as they should be telling us more.

 

Having said all that, I think that provenance may be a red herring. Knowing the provenance is not a guarantee that what you will hear will match expectations.

 

What I would put much more stock in is listening impressions provided by trusted listeners. And this is where I think HDTracks can improve. Given the spotty quality of some of the content that has been provided to HDTracks, there should be a mechanism in place to protect customers. Something as simple as a 1-5 star rating system from confirmed buyers would be tremendously valuable. Possibly even more valuable would be reviews posted by confirmed buyers. A big benefit of such a system is that it would also provide HDTracks some ammo that could allow them to demand higher quality content. It would also help them deflect some of the outrage aimed at them, as the poorly-rated material just won't sell.

[HiResSteve]

I used the coupon provided by HDTracks in this thread (Hutton15) in order to get a 24/96 copy of Close To The Edge for $15.28. Not too shabby. Thanks HDTracks and Robert Hutton .

 

I have the Diament version and my buddy also came by with a CD rip from his Hoffman disc, so we will give them all a listen. Can't play the Hoffman SACD layer though since I don't have a player. Just from a preliminary look at the files, the HDTracks version is the real deal, as others have noted. Not brickwalled and no signs of noise reduction having been used.

[vinylphile]

I'm having a difficult time blaming HDTracks as I see them as a reseller - just like Amazon or SoundstageDirect or Music Direct. I don't blame these resellers when their web sites don't provide an account of the provenance of the recordings they sell. I blame the record label that provided them with the content.

 

 

With all due respect I don't think that is really a valid comparison. Particularly with Amazon - which is a reseller of basically every kind of product there is. HDTracks on the other had has a very specific product and niche market. They are only featuring a few new items per week. It should be quite easy for them to test and analyze the tracks they are getting - many of the people here are able to run simple tests, why not HDTracks?

 

Sorry, but they can't be completely taken off the hook for what they sell. If I buy a defective CD from HMV then they have to assume responsibility and make it right, even though it is the record company who provided HMV with that CD. If I shell out $25 for what is presumed and labelled to be a high resolution master but ends up being an upsampled redbook disc I either already have or could have bought for $5 I have the right to be angry at the vendor.

[Don Hills]

I downloaded all three yes albums in 24/96.

I thought all three were quite nice. I especially liked TYA. The bass on it is great!

Very happy all around. Great release!

 

I'm not a fan of "listening with your eyes", but in this case spectrographs provide a useful function. For example, the "Close To the Edge" graphs show that you'd be wasting your money by paying extra for the 192 KHz version. It's a little less clear for "The Yes Album", but those ultra-sharp and strong spikes look suspicious. They could well be distortion generated somewhere in the process. "Going for The One" looks more likely.

[Julf]

With all due respect I don't think that is really a valid comparison. Particularly with Amazon - which is a reseller of basically every kind of product there is.

 

And even Amazon agreed to refunds when it turned out some of the copy-protected "CDs" violated the Red Book standard (and thus were not actually "CDs" despite being advertised as such).

[kennyb123]

With all due respect I don't think that is really a valid comparison. Particularly with Amazon - which is a reseller of basically every kind of product there is. HDTracks on the other had has a very specific product and niche market. They are only featuring a few new items per week. It should be quite easy for them to test and analyze the tracks they are getting - many of the people here are able to run simple tests, why not HDTracks?

 

I was only addressing the argument that HDTracks should be telling us the provenance of the material they sell.

 

I think the Amazon analogy is apt when limiting the argument only to provenance. Rarely does Amazon provide provenance detail, for example, when it comes to SACDs and vinyl. I am rarely able to tell if an SACD was actually from a DSD source, for example. And this is true with most resellers. I've just learned to look elsewhere to find this information, or just take my chances. From this perspective, HDTracks is just like the other sellers from whom I buy music. Do I wish the situation were better? Of course I do. But the fault lies with the record labels and we should be reserving our ire for them.

 

I've been buying new vinyl for decades, so I guess I've just gotten used to not having provenance details provided for me, except in the case of the audiophile reissue labels. HDTracks seems to be held at a higher standard for some reason, which seems odd as they are the only game in town.

 

The bigger point I tried to make was that provenance may likely be a red herring. I've heard terrible reissues from original master tapes and I've heard fantastic reissues from copies of the original master. HDTracks should implement a rating system - just like Amazon - so we can gain insight from those who've actually listened to the tracks.

 

Sorry, but they can't be completely taken off the hook for what they sell. If I buy a defective CD from HMV then they have to assume responsibility and make it right, even though it is the record company who provided HMV with that CD. If I shell out $25 for what is presumed and labelled to be a high resolution master but ends up being an upsampled redbook disc I either already have or could have bought for $5 I have the right to be angry at the vendor.

 

I wasn't addressing HDTrack's customer service after the sale in the post you quoted. My comments were limited to provenance. I've been trying to keep close to the original topic which was the Yes material and confusion over its provenance.

[Julf]

HDTracks seems to be held at a higher standard for some reason

 

Possibly because their marketing is trying to profile them as an audiophile, high-end and "true hi-res" vendor.

 

which seems odd as they are the only game in town.

 

Well, fortunately they aren't. So far I have been very happy with Qobuz. Not enough experience with highresaudio.com to comment on them yet.

 

The bigger point I tried to make was that provenance may likely be a red herring. I've heard terrible reissues from original master tapes and I've heard fantastic reissues from copies of the original master. HDTracks should implement a rating system - just like Amazon - so we can gain insight from those who've actually listened to the tracks.

 

Or even just allow customer comments.

[firedog]

With all due respect I don't think that is really a valid comparison. Particularly with Amazon - which is a reseller of basically every kind of product there is. HDTracks on the other had has a very specific product and niche market. They are only featuring a few new items per week. It should be quite easy for them to test and analyze the tracks they are getting - many of the people here are able to run simple tests, why not HDTracks?

 

Sorry, but they can't be completely taken off the hook for what they sell. If I buy a defective CD from HMV then they have to assume responsibility and make it right, even though it is the record company who provided HMV with that CD. If I shell out $25 for what is presumed and labelled to be a high resolution master but ends up being an upsampled redbook disc I either already have or could have bought for $5 I have the right to be angry at the vendor.

 

In the past HDT has given credit towards a new purchase when an album is shown to be fake hi-res.

[Julf]

In the past HDT has given credit towards a new purchase when an album is shown to be fake hi-res.

 

Yes, in my case they have done that twice. But seems they have stopped doing that.

[vinylphile]

 

I think the Amazon analogy is apt when limiting the argument only to provenance. Rarely does Amazon provide provenance detail, for example, when it comes to SACDs and vinyl. I am rarely able to tell if an SACD was actually from a DSD source, for example. And this is true with most resellers. I've just learned to look elsewhere to find this information, or just take my chances. From this perspective, HDTracks is just like the other sellers from whom I buy music. Do I wish the situation were better? Of course I do. But the fault lies with the record labels and we should be reserving our ire for them.

 

 

But as I said - Amazon resells everything and doesn't purport to be high end anything. You have to know what you're buying when you buy from them - do your research - that is common sense. HDTracks is ONLY in the business of selling recordings, primarily to audiophiles - it seems we should be holding them to a higher standard than Amazon. Not quite sure why you're so prepared to let them off the hook on this. Yes, the record companies have a long history of being dishonest about this and many other things - but perhaps if HDTracks made very clear what their standards were then the record companies would provide them with more honestly labelled material. And it should be relatively easy for them to do tests and research if Tom, Dick and Harry on this site are able to.

 

HDTracks is responsible for what they sell, plain and simple.

[mav52]

But as I said - Amazon resells everything and doesn't purport to be high end anything. You have to know what you're buying when you buy from them - do your research - that is common sense. HDTracks is ONLY in the business of selling recordings, primarily to audiophiles - it seems we should be holding them to a higher standard than Amazon. Not quite sure why you're so prepared to let them off the hook on this. Yes, the record companies have a long history of being dishonest about this and many other things - but perhaps if HDTracks made very clear what their standards were then the record companies would provide them with more honestly labelled material. And it should be relatively easy for them to do tests and research if Tom, Dick and Harry on this site are able to.

 

HDTracks is responsible for what they sell, plain and simple.

 

Interesting read: Q&A With David Chesky of HDtracks | AudioStream

[vinylphile]

Interesting read: Q&A With David Chesky of HDtracks | AudioStream

 

It is interesting, and I respect what they're doing...but as one of the only resellers of digital downloads I think they can do a better job of demanding certain standards of the record companies. I think Chesky's story is a bit of a cop-out.

[Robert Hutton]

I was only addressing the argument that HDTracks should be telling us the provenance of the material they sell.

 

I think the Amazon analogy is apt when limiting the argument only to provenance. Rarely does Amazon provide provenance detail, for example, when it comes to SACDs and vinyl. I am rarely able to tell if an SACD was actually from a DSD source, for example. And this is true with most resellers. I've just learned to look elsewhere to find this information, or just take my chances. From this perspective, HDTracks is just like the other sellers from whom I buy music. Do I wish the situation were better? Of course I do. But the fault lies with the record labels and we should be reserving our ire for them.

 

I've been buying new vinyl for decades, so I guess I've just gotten used to not having provenance details provided for me, except in the case of the audiophile reissue labels. HDTracks seems to be held at a higher standard for some reason, which seems odd as they are the only game in town.

 

The bigger point I tried to make was that provenance may likely be a red herring. I've heard terrible reissues from original master tapes and I've heard fantastic reissues from copies of the original master. HDTracks should implement a rating system - just like Amazon - so we can gain insight from those who've actually listened to the tracks.

 

 

 

I wasn't addressing HDTrack's customer service after the sale in the post you quoted. My comments were limited to provenance. I've been trying to keep close to the original topic which was the Yes material and confusion over its provenance.

 

I think you are right, provenance is a big red herring.

 

We already know (Barry Diament has cone here to confirm) that many, many audiophile label claims of 'original masters' are dubious and outright false. And we know that original master tapes are not in of themselves any guarantee of great sound - the tapes themselves do not always sound very good without some help.

 

There are just too many who simply want to bitch.

 

Vinylphile says that HD Tracks needs to "make clear what their standards are". Well, that is just plain wrong. HD Tracks have made that perfectly, completely, totally, utterly clear in simple, easy to understand, unequivocal language.

 

Guys like Julf seems to like Qobuz better, yet Qobuz provide absolutely zero provenance information. In fact, pretty much no one does. Yet HD Tracks get slammed here.

 

I like HD Tracks. My musical journey has been greatly enhanced by HD Tracks. I am glad they are in the market. They are not perfect, no business is. They have brought me over 100 fabulous titles in fantastic sound, I am the better for it.

 

The complainers don't care about a rather simple concept. This is a rather new, fragile niche market. The majors are just dipping their toes in it, they haven't figured it out yet. There surely cannot be much money to be made in it.

 

If it is just a source of angst and complaints, they may just decide it isn't worth it.

[mav52]

It is interesting, and I respect what they're doing...but as one of the only resellers of digital downloads I think they can do a better job of demanding certain standards of the record companies. I think Chesky's story is a bit of a cop-out.

that's how I read it not to mention placing the blame on the artist or the label for the incorrect bit rate....

[Julf]

Guys like Julf seems to like Qobuz better, yet Qobuz provide absolutely zero provenance information. In fact, pretty much no one does. Yet HD Tracks get slammed here.

 

Qobuz are no better at providing provenance - but they do seem to be better at dealing with the situation where it becomes clear that something has been mislabelled. But maybe that is something that only guys like Julf care about.

 

I like HD Tracks. My musical journey has been greatly enhanced by HD Tracks. I am glad they are in the market. They are not perfect, no business is. They have brought me over 100 fabulous titles in fantastic sound, I am the better for it.

 

Great - and that is why you keep bringing them money.

 

The complainers don't care about a rather simple concept. This is a rather new, fragile niche market. The majors are just dipping their toes in it, they haven't figured it out yet. There surely cannot be much money to be made in it.

 

If it is just a source of angst and complaints, they may just decide it isn't worth it.

 

Ah, so they should be allowed to get away with shady business practices because they do us a favour? I beg to differ. If the audiophile market is too small to support honest business, then nothing we do can change that. If there is a sustainable business, it will go to the companies who provide a service that their customers value. Companies ignore complaints from their customers at their own peril - but that's their choice.

[Robert Hutton]

Qobuz are no better at providing provenance - but they do seem to be better at dealing with the situation where it becomes clear that something has been mislabelled. But maybe that is something that only guys like Julf care about.

 

 

 

Great - and that is why you keep bringing them money.

 

 

 

Ah, so they should be allowed to get away with shady business practices because they do us a favour? I beg to differ. If the audiophile market is too small to support honest business, then nothing we do can change that. If there is a sustainable business, it will go to the companies who provide a service that their customers value. Companies ignore complaints from their customers at their own peril - but that's their choice.

 

This is just insane that someone can come on a public forum and accuse a company of "shady business practices" with impunity.

 

I hope Hd Tracks sue you.

[bottlerocket]

Originally Posted by Robert Hutton

.... yet Qobuz provide absolutely zero provenance information. In fact, pretty much no one does. Yet HD Tracks get slammed here.

 

A smart businessman would recognize this and therefore decide to distinguish his company from others by offering it. Instead the dumb businessman gloats over a post parodying his own customers on a public forum that most of his customer frequent.

[Julf]

This is just insane that someone can come on a public forum and accuse a company of "shady business practices" with impunity.

 

Indeed. Totally insane. Let me continue with the insanity: "I have proof that HDTracks is selling 44.1/16 material padded up to 24 bits while claiming it is hi-res". How about that for insanity?

 

I hope Hd Tracks sue you.

 

So do I. To quote Kurt Denke (owner of Blue Jeans Cable), "Not only am I unintimidated by litigation; I sometimes rather miss it."