New gear, Room issues with bass

[Mihnea]

Hi guys,

 

Just got my new gear installed and although it sounds wondeful as soundstage and colour, I have a (low) bass issue in my listening position -- positions A to B in the drawing.

 

The echo was quite easily reduced/eliminated using some thick decoration pillows my living room is full with, but the bass is only fully revealed in positions C and D. Unfortunately, in those positions the soundstage is not optimal (a bit too far away from the speakers).

 

Do you think that installing some bass traps in the 3 accessible corners (the one with the bookshelf is not accessible) could eliminate this issue? My guess is that the direct bass wave is partially being cancelled by reflections.

 

The corners behind the speakers could accomodate bass traps from a height of 1 meter up (my chest and the hifi rack would not let me go lower towards the floor).

 

Room size is L: 500cm, W: 400 cm, H: 260cm.

 

Thanks a lot!

Mihnea

[Mihnea]

Oops, forgot the picture!

 

[Johan]

Besides bass traps you could also consider:

 

DSPeaker-Home

 

or

 

Dirac RCS | Dirac Research

 

There are more software solutions out there but as far as I know they do not support OS X.

[DigiPete]

You make the most (space) efficient bass traps in the tri-corners.

That is the corner between two walls and a floor or ceiling.

Bass concentrate there, so your dampening is many times as effective as anywhere else.

It's like the reverse of the extra volume you get from placing the sub there ;-)

 

In your case it would be the corner between two walls and ceiling.

The traps would litterally take no space at all

 

For illustration purposes only: RealTraps - Tri-Corners

 

I would go for way bigger ones like 120cm / 4' each side.

That will give more effect and lower frequencies.

[Guidof]

I second the suggestion of a DSPeaker Dual Core. Also, consider relocating the large table that you currently have in front of the speakers. I would also try to move the speakers a bit closer to one another.

 

Best luck!

 

Guido F.

[Mihnea]

I would also try to move the speakers a bit closer to one another.

 

Best luck!

 

Guido F.

 

I will try to do that just to see if it makes any difference in the bass area, although for practical reasons the speakers have to remain as they are now (the TV is fixed on the wall and the chest needs to be accessed).

 

Thanks for the tips!

 

Mihnea

[Mihnea]

You make the most (space) efficient bass traps in the tri-corners.

That is the corner between two walls and a floor or ceiling.

 

Thanks a lot, DigiPete!

 

But will those traps solve this kind of issue, that's what I'm worried about. The last thing I want is to buy all kinds of dampening stuff from the Internet and get stuck with them without solving the issue.

 

Would measuring the room with some mic and software like REW reveal those issues?

 

Thanks again,

Mihnea

[mav52]

Thanks a lot, DigiPete!

 

But will those traps solve this kind of issue, that's what I'm worried about. The last thing I want is to buy all kinds of dampening stuff from the Internet and get stuck with them without solving the issue.

 

Would measuring the room with some mic and software like REW reveal those issues?

 

.

 

Thanks again,

Mihnea

YES and it would even allow you to move your furniture around ( measure again) to identify those weak spots. Then if you need traps you then will know here to place them. Don't spend money until you know where the problem lies.

[Priaptor]

Your speakers relative to your side and rear walls are way way too symmetrical.

 

That is the first thing to fix. Your "bass issue" most definitely begins there.

[bdiament]

Hi Mihnea,

 

I agree with Priaptor regarding the similar (or equal) distance of each speaker to its nearest side wall and the wall behind it.

 

I see other issues as well.

First, the reason there is more apparent low bass at positions C and D is because *any* position that places your ears within ~60 cm of a wall is going to be in a pressure zone. There is more *apparent* bass because you are hearing the *room's* resonance. This is not the same as the bass contained in the recording. Note how the "bass" at positions C and D tends to *not* be in tune with the bass in the program material. Note also, how it is slightly behind the record in time.

 

While proper room treatments will always help, in my experience, from looking at the "map" of your room, I'd suggest trying different speaker placement. For details, see this, which I hope will help or at least provide food for audio thought.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[firedog]

The corner bass traps alone may solve your problem.

 

If not, I'd consider something like this directly behind your listening position on the wall.

 

This worked like a charm for me, and prevented echo/resonance off the close rear wall.

[Priaptor]

Hi Mihnea,

 

I agree with Priaptor regarding the similar (or equal) distance of each speaker to its nearest side wall and the wall behind it.

 

I see other issues as well.

First, the reason there is more apparent low bass at positions C and D is because *any* position that places your ears within ~60 cm of a wall is going to be in a pressure zone. There is more *apparent* bass because you are hearing the *room's* resonance. This is not the same as the bass contained in the recording. Note how the "bass" at positions C and D tends to *not* be in tune with the bass in the program material. Note also, how it is slightly behind the record in time.

 

While proper room treatments will always help, in my experience, from looking at the "map" of your room, I'd suggest trying different speaker placement. For details, see this, which I hope will help or at least provide food for audio thought.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

Barry,

 

I agree. Having been in the "business" earlier in my career, I have seen people purchase equipment at exorbitant sums without attention to the detail of setup. I have always started, as you indicated, to get the most out of one's room by placement of speakers and chair location first.

 

The problem I see, in most setups, is that people want or need to compromise between a dedicated listening room and a "living room". I would always begin with a customer by asking them, after they listened to how a piece of equipment "should" sound, if they wanted a "dedicated" listening room. By looking at Mihnea's room, while he may be able to get improvements, the room is still compromised by certain aspects, that only he can make a decision if he wants to improve upon to get the most out of his room.

 

Only after that decision, do I move to room treatments.

 

The article you reference is an excellent primer that I have often referred to.

 

When is your next recording release? I listened to Americas the other night-fantastic!

[Brian A]

I have almost identical placement constraints at the front of my room (although I don't have rear wall issues and have a bigger room). I suggest extensive experimentation with speaker placement: even impractical locations just to figure out what is happening.

 

I learned a lot from Barry and from Jim Smith (he has a book, "Get Better Sound").

 

For me, i eventually made a big spouse-friendly compromise. My speakers stay "parked" 40 cm from the wall most of the time but I pull them out to 1.5 metres for critical listening (i.e. in front of the sofa). I use a laser measuring tool to set them in exact position (distance and angle) in only a minute or two. My sofa, positioned identically to yours, "pushes" the sound stage slightly to the left, but it is a minor effect.

[bdiament]

Hi Priaptor,

 

...The article you reference is an excellent primer that I have often referred to....

 

Thank you. When I put it on the site, my hope was that it would be of use to my fellow listeners.

 

...When is your next recording release? I listened to Americas the other night-fantastic!

 

Thank you again. I'm very grateful for your interest. I'm also very glad you are enjoying "Americas". Working on the next projects; no release date as yet but you're on the mailing list so you'll be among the first to know.

 

To the OP, if you can at all experiment with placement, I'd add that one thing I've said for years is "Every foot from the wall adds $1000 to the sound." I hope you find the same.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Encore]

While proper room treatments will always help, in my experience, from looking at the "map" of your room, I'd suggest trying different speaker placement. For details, see this, which I hope will help or at least provide food for audio thought.[/url]

 

Excellent link, Barry. However, I notice that the OP suffers from a lack of bass. Won't speaker placement further from the walls exacerbate this problem?

 

I suffer from a similar, although not identical problem. I've recently moved to a new apartment. And while I had problems with boomy bass in the old apartment, the situation is the reverse in the new apartment. The listening room seems to suck up bass. No matter where in the room I position myself, the bass is too week to my liking. Except, ironically enough, the very deep bass. But then there is a sort of gap from around 40-45 Hz up to the midrange. And the midrange gets a little "shouty" as a consequence.

 

I've tried moving the speakers closer the wall behind the speakers, and that helps some in terms of tonal balance, but it doesn't do wonders for soundstage and the like. It's a fairly large room by Copenhagen-flat standards, 8,5 m (28') x 4 m (13'); it's somewhat irregular, though, w tilted walls to one side and a protrusion from a nextdoor room on the other side.

[bdiament]

Hi Encore,

 

Excellent link, Barry. However, I notice that the OP suffers from a lack of bass. Won't speaker placement further from the walls exacerbate this problem?...

 

It all depends on whether one wants to hear the bass contained in the recording or the bass that results from exciting the resonances of the room. Every room has resonances. There is a fundamental resonance frequency for each of the room's dimensions (length, width and height) and there are the harmonics of those fundamental resonances.

 

Placing speakers where they will excite the resonances (generally speaking, closer to room boundaries) will tend to result in more *room* rather than more bass. The same is true when placing the listening chair close to a room boundary.

It certainly may *seem* like more bass and some folks may enjoy the results. However, this is not the bass contained in the recording.

 

It is behind the recording in time - some notice this as a disturbance of the music's rhythm and pace. It also tends to be "out of tune" with the recording. For example, in the OP's room, the fundamental resonance for the length dimension will be at approximately 69 Hz, which, in musical terms, represents something close to a low C#. If the music being listened to happens to be in C#, the occurrence of this pitch will "stand out" in this listening room as that is where the room's length resonance "rings". If, on the other hand, the music being listened to is in C, the room's resonance will still be ringing at C#, resulting in something of a dissonance for those sensitive to musical pitch.

 

When speakers are optimally placed, there is minimum excitation of the room's resonances. Musical timing is then at its "tightest" and any bass heard will tend to be the bass in the recording - assuming the loudspeakers are capable of reproducing it.

 

There is one other aspect to excitement of the room's resonant modes: depending on the position of the speakers and of the listener, instead of a build-up (a peak in the response), there may be a cancellation (a dip in the response). In fact, once the room is set to ringing, different parts of the room will be "up" at certain bass frequencies and other parts will be "down" at the same frequencies.

 

Placement that avoids exciting the resonances, avoids not only the peaks but the dips as well. It is the only way I know to hear what is on the recording itself, without "editorializing" from the room. One of the great things about experimenting with speaker and listening position placement is that what is required is an investment in time and energy but not one of money. Regardless of the budget, any listener that is interested can experiment to find out how changes in placement alter the listening experience.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Guidof]

The first step in solving a bass problem is (obviously) to define exactly what the problem is. In re reading the OP as well as the other posts, I'm not sure the problem has been accurately defined. Is the bass 'booming' or otherwise 'fat' (hence the mention of bass traps) or just excessive? Is it too little or undefined? Is it of the 'one note' variety? What kind of music does the OP listens to, and at what volume? Or is the system primarily HT? In other words, before suggesting that he spend money, as a number have rightly advised against, can the issue be more clearly identified?

 

Regards,

 

Guido F.

[Encore]

It all depends on whether one wants to hear the bass contained in the recording or the bass that results from exciting the resonances of the room.

 

Good way of putting it, that helped. But this only minimizes the influence from resonances. I take it the room and the materials from which the walls are made will still influence the sound. In my case, the room seems to suck up midbass, probably because of plaster walls with mineral wool behind them, so if I understand it correctly, this means that I need increased midbass output. This would mean either raising midbass levels through DSP, getting a subwoofer, or getting a speaker which is hot in the midbass range.

 

BTW, I just tried placing the speakers using the 29% method. Wow, soundstage is fantastic! Alas, with insufficient bass.

 

Some weeks ago I tried adjusting some tracks using the DSP of dbPoweramp, and although the tonal balance was improved, it somehow sucked the life out of the music--reduced coherence and soundstage. So that's not a route I'm inclined to follow. But maybe the DSP of dbPoweramp isn't good enough? Audirvana 1.5 will get DSP--I may await that before plunging into new purchases ..

[Guidof]

Even further reading suggests that the main issue may be one of *differential* bass in the two listening positions. If this is so, this may not be amenable to complete resolution, particularly in a room this size. Perhaps optimizing bass in the main listening spot could be a strategy -- and in this speaker placement might help (but the OP has indicated that position is pretty well fixed). A DSPeaker Dual Core would allow for bass calibration at the two locations he is concerned with, and it may be his best best in this situation IF tuneful bass is the objective.

 

Guido F.

[Encore]

....so if I understand it correctly, this means that I need increased midbass output. This would mean either raising midbass levels through DSP ...

 

I've just given the DSP'ed files another try. And there's no doubt--an increased output in the midbass is the remedy. Even with the deterioration imparted by dbPoweramp's DSP, the result is still preferable.

 

Might be the same for the OP? I.e. that an increased bass output is what is needed ..

[bdiament]

Hi Encore,

 

Good way of putting it, that helped. But this only minimizes the influence from resonances. I take it the room and the materials from which the walls are made will still influence the sound. In my case, the room seems to suck up midbass, probably because of plaster walls with mineral wool behind them, so if I understand it correctly, this means that I need increased midbass output. This would mean either raising midbass levels through DSP, getting a subwoofer, or getting a speaker which is hot in the midbass range.

 

BTW, I just tried placing the speakers using the 29% method. Wow, soundstage is fantastic! Alas, with insufficient bass.

 

Some weeks ago I tried adjusting some tracks using the DSP of dbPoweramp, and although the tonal balance was improved, it somehow sucked the life out of the music--reduced coherence and soundstage. So that's not a route I'm inclined to follow. But maybe the DSP of dbPoweramp isn't good enough? Audirvana 1.5 will get DSP--I may await that before plunging into new purchases ..

 

Glad to hear of the benefits you experience with placement experimentation.

If we can assume the speakers are capable of delivering the bottom, I'd suggest considering room treatment over considering dsp. The lack of mid bass you mention may still be the result of room resonance (in this case, a cancellation-caused dip instead of a peak).

 

The problem I have with dsp is that it skews the direct response from the speaker, while leaving the physical issues of the room unaddressed. Some may certainly *like* the results of its use and I'd never argue with whatever brings anyone listening pleasure but to my ears, this results in *adding* a second problem rather than solving the first one. Altering the direct response from the speaker (which you paid good money for) will not change the fact that the room tends to "hold onto" certain frequencies after they have "finished" in the record itself. I'd rather address the issue at its source and leave the fine response of the speakers as designed.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Mihnea]

The first step in solving a bass problem is (obviously) to define exactly what the problem is. In re reading the OP as well as the other posts, I'm not sure the problem has been accurately defined. Is the bass 'booming' or otherwise 'fat' (hence the mention of bass traps) or just excessive? Is it too little or undefined? Is it of the 'one note' variety? What kind of music does the OP listens to, and at what volume? Or is the system primarily HT? In other words, before suggesting that he spend money, as a number have rightly advised against, can the issue be more clearly identified?

 

Regards,

 

Guido F.

 

Hi Guido,

 

The bass in the listening positions is lacking compared to what I have heard in the dealer's listening room the few times when I auditioned this equipment. Soundstage is good, image is good, however bass is very low (and I am not a bass lover!).

 

In the rear positions, closer to the rear wall, bass is good strength, although a bit too much and -- as Barry described it -- a bit out of phase (delayed).

 

I listen at low to medium volume, definitely not loud, since I live in a flat and I have neighbours! The music I listen to is guitar, classical, blues, rock, ambiental, occasionally heavy metal/hard rock.

 

The setup is pure stereo, no HT.

 

Thanks again for your help!

[Mihnea]

Might be the same for the OP? I.e. that an increased bass output is what is needed ..

 

The bass level in the rear wall positions is strong enough to call for trouble from the neighbours! No need to raise it even further in my listening positions AND rear side as well.

 

After reading the other posts I think I will give a try to Barry's advice on speaker placement -- I knew already this extremely useful piece of advice on speaker placement from his website, but I have tried first the easy way -- and then I will try to borrow some bass traps materials from my dealer just to play with it in my room.

 

I have tried to bring the speakers closer together, the soundstage seemed a bit compressed compared to current setup. Bass issue still the same.

 

After reading Barry's advice to place speakers at 1/3 of room width -- that's 135cm in my case, compared to 250cm in my current setup -- I am a bit reluctant considering the compression of the soundstage this would bring. As stated above, I got the speakers maybe 20-30 cm closer and my impressions was a more compressed soundstage.

 

But I will give this a try, after all Barry pinned it: it's only my time, no additional cash needed!

 

Thanks again everyone for your advice, I am grateful to this great community.

 

Mihnea

[Mihnea]

My speakers stay "parked" 40 cm from the wall most of the time but I pull them out to 1.5 metres for critical listening (i.e. in front of the sofa). I use a laser measuring tool to set them in exact position (distance and angle) in only a minute or two.

 

This could be a good solution if experimentation with speaker placement proves to find a solution to this bass issue.

 

Thanks.

[Mihnea]

The corner bass traps alone may solve your problem.

 

If not, I'd consider something like this directly behind your listening position on the wall.

 

This worked like a charm for me, and prevented echo/resonance off the close rear wall.

 

Thanks for the tip! I was actually looking on GIK's website since they also sell in Europe from UK and the prices are humane :-)

 

Although I was looking at their Tri-Traps for the corners.