LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

[EvilTed]

@BlueSkyy

 

Optical in.

Analog balanced out.

No DSD upsampling ever, it loses all the bite and attack for me.

 

I made a custom DC cable for mine using Duelund 20ga.

A huge improvement over the stock but a total PITA to build.

I used 5x twisted pairs and the pins of the connectors are so close it had to be soldered under magnification.

The sleeve is natural silk sock hand dyed with organic yellow dye.

I needed something to work on over lockdown and this was a cool project.

 

[EvilTed]

I must be missing something here, but as I understand it, the raison d'être for implementing LeedH processing is to negate some of the poor effects of using a traditional digital volume control when feeding power amps directly.

 

Anyone who claims that turning on LeedH volume and setting the volume control of their preamp to max results in dramatically better sound must have a different setup than I do.

 

No digital volume control still sounds better in my system and I'm using electrostatic speakers that are about as transparent as they come.

I tried it and the straight DAC output is way more dynamic and just better.

Why put another bit of processing in the chain unless you have to?

 

[EvilTed]

I tried again tonight.

Used my preamp at full gain + LeedH.

Didn't sound as good.

Switched off the LeedH in my iPad application and nearly blew my speakers.

One horrible, really loud CRACK!

 

@wklie

please look at this

[EvilTed]

 

@wklie

 

I also noticed that 13a sounds bad compared to 13.

Sounds harsh and a tad distorted to me.

Either the firmware or your LeedH volume crack damaged my ESL panels

Anyway to roll the firmware back?

 

[EvilTed]

@wklie

 

Peter,

 

I'll reset everything today and see if that brings things back to normal.

I'm also going to try no preamp and LeedH.

I'll report back.

 

Thanks

 

 

[EvilTed]

@wklie

 

Peter,

 

I power cycled the X1 and that brought everything back eventually. Took it a while for Roon to find it again. I was getting worried.

The harshness in the sound was gone, which is a relief.

Thanks

 

Anyway, I tried taking the preamp out of the circuit today and spent a whole afternoon listening to the X1 direct to the DSP.

It sounds better in some regards but tends to sound too digital for me.

 

Sure it's a little more transparent but people use tube amps with NOS tubes for a reason.

They are glorified tone controls, so when your system has been matched to the room using them, it sounds off removing them.

Just ask anyone who has ever owned a wood-bodied Koetsu.

Yes, cartridges such as Lyra are more accurate, but there is something about the mid-range coloration that is addictive.

Same with tubes.

 

I tried to love it but it's not very enjoyable to listen to for me.

A tad too clinical for my taste 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EvilTed]

@The Computer Audiophile

 

Word.

 

Now if only it had the transparency and the tube tone

 

[EvilTed]

Lumin iPad Application bugs.

 

I have had some serious problems with the Lumin iPad application and would like to verify if others are witnessing the same problems.

 

1) Turning OFF LeedH volume Control during Roon (Tidal) playback results in loud crack through speakers

Roon (Tidal) playback was turned off.

 

2) Turning OFF Analog Volume Control during Roon (Tidal)

Roon (Tidal) playback continues and was NOT turned off.

 

This one is a very dangerous bug.

 

According to Lumin:

 

"When user manually switch Volume Control from On to Off, ALL current playback (playing from NAS/USB HDD, TIDAL, Qobuz, Spotify, Roon, TuneIn radio, Airplay and Multi-Room) will be stopped automatically. This is to prevent sudden change of excessive playback volume.
And LUMIN app will pop up a message (as in your screen capture) to remind user the volume setting change is effectively fixed output volume at max.
Then user must resume playback manually."

 

Can others please verify and behavior you get.

I'm using iPad with 13.5.1.

 

 

 

 

[EvilTed]

@wklie

 

The above quote is from Li On, the X1 Product Manager.

He is stating that playback will be automatically stopped, but it isn't and that is a big problem.

 

The other problem is that the dialog is telling the user of a potentially destructive action AFTER THE FACT.

In interaction design, it is a best practice to warn the user BEFORE any potentially destructive action and allow them to course correct, if necessary.

The Lumin Application actually applies 100% volume and then tells you after the fact.

To add insult to injury it has an OK button.

Sorry, but this is never OK and because of your sloppy design, I have a blown channel on my power amp

 

 

[EvilTed]

@wklie

 

Ahem...

 

Firmware 13.1 just released and look what it has in it

• Fixed playback did not stop in Roon mode when switching Volume Control settings from On to Off

You are welcome.

 

Luckily my amplifier manufacturer has a lifetime, no questions asked warranty.

I told him what happened with Lumin and he sent me a new amplifier module free of charge.

That's REAL customer service!

 

My advice to anyone reading this is,

 

You can have company representatives talking up their products all they want on forums such as these, but when they have product bugs that cause destructive harm to your equipment, they should admit liability and do everything in their power to make your experience as a customer first class.

What you see here is the the real Lumin experience.

Again, you pay your money, you make your choice.

 

[EvilTed]

@smodtactical

 

I wasn't aware that Stephen Huang of Audio Sensibility was affiliated with Lumin?

In what capacity is he?

[EvilTed]

@BlueSkyy

 

You are aware that the internals of the X1 are not wired up with anything exotic?

Power from the the 2 boards to the back of the 10 pin switch is of the same bog standard as original umbilical cord.

Just sayin...

 

[EvilTed]

@BlueSkyy

I don't believe the Westminster Lab cables are electrically shielded.

They use some carbon sleeve mumbo-jumbo, but it is not a screened cable and besides, if they were worried about noise they wouldn't put the PSU within 9" of the player.

Just sayin...

[EvilTed]

@BlueSkyy

I'm not angry at you.

Maybe something to do with our friends from HK?

Anyway, I'm selling my X1 so I wont be commenting much on their products going forward.

[EvilTed]

@barrows

 

It is a carbon fiber sleeve, so it is NOT electrically shielded (in that it is not connected to ground at either end).

Yes, it may provide some benefit, but not as much as a traditional screened cable which uses a metal braid that is connected electrically to ground.

 

The other point is that if Lumin X1s designers used unscreened cable in their umbilical and designed the PSU to be set within mm of the side of the DAC, I doubt that there is much chance of noise bleeding in over the DC cable, unless you are operating an old drill or something on the same mains circuit.

 

 

[EvilTed]

@wklie

Or blowing up a power amp.

Choices, choices...

[EvilTed]

@hoppy100

 

Yes, I had it pop my speakers at full volume initially.

Then it switched to full power and blew one channel of my power amplifier.

I'd recommend you to be very careful using this feature.

 

Lumin fixed one of the issues immediately after I reported it, but the fact that this slipped through QA into production gives me little confidence in their ability to engineer quality software and test it before release.

 

I'd personally stick to the fixed output and use your preamp.

In my system, the preamp sounds better anyway.

 

[EvilTed]

@wklie

 

Incorrect disabling of the volume control?

 

I managed to click something that disabled the volume control while the X1 was playing Roon.

Like you don't know your own equipment is playing something?

So that's my fault?

Correct my misunderstanding, but disabling the volume control is a function of your application.

If you had designed the Lumin App correctly, the warning modal would say "You are about to disable the volume control, which will return the output to maximum and potentially damage your equipment. Are you OK with this?"

 

Instead, you just disabled the volume control and the modal says "Volume control disabled" with the button OK.

How is this ever OK?

 

Your firmware design was flawed and the interaction design was atrocious.

If you cannot admit that, then there is nothing left to say.

 

"What we did modify, is that after the incorrect disabling of volume control during playback, we changed to automatically stop playback even if using Roon."

 

No, what you did was cover your ass and fix a nasty bug that would have damaged more peoples equipment and your reputation.

A thank you would be in order, but I guess you are too arrogant to admit you are wrong.

 

 

 

 

[EvilTed]

@wklie

 

Despite that setback the X1 is a fine player.

I could trade it in for the full price I paid for it towards a new BADA Ref Series 3, but I decided to keep it.

When it sings its world class.

Other days it sounds like ass.

It's probably mains related.

 

Thank you

[EvilTed]

@barrows

 

It should all be driven by user experience =>  the best possible experience for someone using the system.

If it is possible for a user to make a mistake and this leads to catastrophic damage, then the system has not been designed correctly.

 

Here's an example from control engineering 101.

When power to a valve fails, does the valve stay open or does it close?

The answer is it depends upon the system.

If it is fuel, the probably shutting it is the better option.

If it is water cooling a reactor, then leaving it open is probably best.

 

I'll take BADA as an example.

The BADA DACs have a built in volume control. 

They recommend using it at 54 out of 60 (max).

What happens when there is a power cut?

Does it start at 60?

No, it comes back up at 24.

This way, if there is any error, it doesn't come back at full power and blow stuff up.

A PITA you may feel, but better to have to operate a volume control than replace damaged equipment.

 

Now, I've stated my case and Lumin disagree, but I did note that they fixed the issue, so there must have been merit to it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EvilTed]

@Chungjh

 

It depends upon the rest of your system and how it interacts with your room and the sound balance you prefer.

My system uses ESL speakers and a DSP instead of crossovers (active or passive) and with this comes the ability to perform live room analysis with a microphone to tune the response to the room.

 

My system has been built having the preamp in place.

Taking it out of circuit and using LeedH on my X1 resulted in a pretty boring sound.

It sucked the life out of it.

 

I use an EAR 868 PL tube preamp which has served me very well for years.

I am upgrading to an EAR 912 for the superior phono stage.

Both preamps have transformers in the output stage, the same as the X1/S1.

I source incredibly rare NOS pinched-waist tubes and use these in both the phono and line stages.

 

With a preamp like this the sound is alive and real.

With LeedH it is not very involving and just kinda flat and digital.

 

ESL speakers + tube amps are a preferred combination amongst analog lovers, especially for the liquid midrange.

If you have experienced this, then you know what I'm talking about.

 

 

 

[EvilTed]

@BlueSkyy

 

OnLogic don't offer SFP ports.

Neither do any of the Inter NUC based devices.

 

You will have to use Ethernet to a SFP module and convert it that way.

[EvilTed]

@wklie

 

Nice to see Lumin listen to customers :)

How much are these going to run for?

[EvilTed]

36 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

... might be because 2v and 4v are, respectively, SE and XLR established output *STANDARDS*? 😉
🙄

Just put some passive attenuators inline and be done with it....

 

http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/attenuators.html

 

[EvilTed]

I have the AudioSensibility Signature Cable in 0.5m length.

It is a definite upgrade over the cable I made myself previously using Duelund tinned copper.

Both were noticeably better than the stock cable, once they had time to break in.

 

Building your own is not easy or cheap.

First you need the pinout diagram that shows the high current vs. low current.

Not an issue if you use 20 awg or thicker everywhere, but the raw OCC cable is going to cost you.

You have 10x connectors at 0.5m = 5m + enough to terminate cleanly at both ends.

Call it 6.5m to be safe. 6.5m = roughly 21 feet.

Neotech 20 awg solid core OCC silver cable is $23 / ft on Parts Connection.

21 x 23 = $483 just for cable.

Add more for good silver or gold solder.

The connectors and cable clamps alone will set you back close to $200, and it is a royal PITA to solder, because the pins are very close together.

 

You are going to be close to $700 for parts alone.

Then you are going to spend hours messing with the soldering.

It took me 2 weekends to complete it and I have a degree in electronics :)

 

Save the hassle and give Steve a call and get the AS cable ;)