HQPlayer's Network Audio Adapter

[Miska]

Where can NAA 3.x be found -- the netaudiod is version 2.05?

 

It is now on my web page, if it doesn't appear yet, please reload the page to refresh cache.

[jhwalker]

It is now on my web page, if it doesn't appear yet, please reload the page to refresh cache.

 

Is this the first wide release for OS X, or has it been available all along? I was under the impression I needed a Linux (or similar lightweight) OS for the NAA, but I just set it up on my 2011 Mac Mini and it's playing well

 

Looking forward to putting it through its paces!

[Miska]

Is this the first wide release for OS X, or has it been available all along? I was under the impression I needed a Linux (or similar lightweight) OS for the NAA, but I just set it up on my 2011 Mac Mini and it's playing well

 

Yes, OS X and Windows versions are fresh, first time released last night...

[johann]

How about trying something very simple like this: WRT54GL which could be run off a 12v/0.5A linear power supply. Uses Broadcom SOC and runs Linux. It will give you 4 Ethernet ports for your home router.

 

Definitely good enough for DHCP and DNS including DNSMasq.

Using WRT since 2007 or so, usually way better than the what it comes with as standard.

[Superdad]

Alright, solved for case 2 above using OS X Internet sharing.

 

Okay, so how is it done?

[Superdad]

How about trying something very simple like this: WRT54GL which could be run off a 12v/0.5A linear power supply. Uses Broadcom SOC and runs Linux. It will give you 4 Ethernet ports for your home router.

 

I think I do have a Linksys WRT54GL in a drawer somewhere, but I don't see why I would want to add that to my network--especially since I prefer not to have wi-fi in my studio. And its 4 ports would not be nearly enough for my LAN--that's what my 10-port Cisco Gigabit managed with is for. Besides, as I have said, I can get HQP to find NAA devices (both ARM and Intel) as long as they are plugged directly into my DSL modem/router. I don't think there is anything non-standard or unreasonable about expecting to be able to plug them into my Ethernet switch and have them be seen by my desktop Mac (also plugged into EN switch).

 

I admit that my other desire--to be able to have HQP find NAA device that is directly attached via EN cable--is not typical and Miska has already explained what it is hard for him to accommodate that easily. But based on prior comparisons (with direct connection versus through switch; with HQP running on optimized headless i7 mini--getting its music files from shared drive at desktop machine over that EN), there is a distinct sonic advantage to the direct connection. Enough so that NAA playback does not sound as good as just OS X HQP on my tweaked mini driving DAC--even though it is probably hampered by CoreAudio.

I bet the advantage would reverse if I can get the direct connection working--if for no other reason (though I am sure there are others) than the fact that the text-only, very minimal Linux/NAA that Miska gave me is not having to use CoreAudio.

[Superdad]

Miska:

 

Saw that you just made available "networkaudiod" NAA for both Windows and OS X. I will try the OS X one right away. But should I keep my expectations low since the NAA will still have to run through CoreAudio? Are you doing anything special with these NAA releases to help them equal the SQ of your Linux NAA?

 

Thanks,

--Alex C.

[johann]

Okay, so how is it done?

 

That's how much is it worth, not even a please?

I don't work for you so forget it!

[jabbr]

I think I do have a Linksys WRT54GL in a drawer somewhere, but I don't see why I would want to add that to my network--especially since I prefer not to have wi-fi in my studio. And its 4 ports would not be nearly enough for my LAN--that's what my 10-port Cisco Gigabit managed with is for. Besides, as I have said, I can get HQP to find NAA devices (both ARM and Intel) as long as they are plugged directly into my DSL modem/router. I don't think there is anything non-standard or unreasonable about expecting to be able to plug them into my Ethernet switch and have them be seen by my desktop Mac (also plugged into EN switch).

 

I admit that my other desire--to be able to have HQP find NAA device that is directly attached via EN cable--is not typical and Miska has already explained what it is hard for him to accommodate that easily. But based on prior comparisons (with direct connection versus through switch; with HQP running on optimized headless i7 mini--getting its music files from shared drive at desktop machine over that EN), there is a distinct sonic advantage to the direct connection.

 

I understand that you hear a better sound when you direct connect your NAA vs through your switch. I am suggesting that you might instead try a low-power router which you could easily power via a LPS, one that is actually a low powered 'cpu' running Linux rather than an actual switch -- might make a difference for you with the added benefit of doing a better job at DHCP/NAT/UPNP and other functions that your ADSL modem may not be the best for (but who knows

 

Gee, if that works you could actually attach two different NAA on your network

[jabbr]

Groan ... after seeing that NAA 3.0 runs on OS X, I rushed to my office ready to pry apart my old Mac Mini (the one with the dead hard drive), ready to upgrade its memory and install an SSD. Unfortunately its circa 2007 ... a core 2 duo which uses DDR2 ... great now I can entirely eliminate the 'row hammer effect' :) ... and then I see that it won't install 10.8 as its really limited to 32 bits... time to really retire my third mac device, the first being a 2002 g5 whose motherboard has too many glitches and the second an old white MacBook that my son killed by dropping (not worth replacing the screen). Oh well.

[johann]

Groan ... after seeing that NAA 3.0 runs on OS X, I rushed to my office ready to pry apart my old Mac Mini (the one with the dead hard drive), ready to upgrade its memory and install an SSD. Unfortunately its circa 2007 ... a core 2 duo which uses DDR2 ... great now I can entirely eliminate the 'row hammer effect' :) ... and then I see that it won't install 10.8 as its really limited to 32 bits... time to really retire my third mac device, the first being a 2002 g5 whose motherboard has too many glitches and the second an old white MacBook that my son killed by dropping (not worth replacing the screen). Oh well.

 

The old Mac Mini would still be a good NAA, renderer or DHCP server (LOL) with 32 bit UNIX or Linux, don't you think?

[Miska]

Saw that you just made available "networkaudiod" NAA for both Windows and OS X. I will try the OS X one right away. But should I keep my expectations low since the NAA will still have to run through CoreAudio? Are you doing anything special with these NAA releases to help them equal the SQ of your Linux NAA?

 

Other than the audio backend part, my code is very much the same for all platforms. Of course platforms are otherwise quite different and Windows and OS X are much more bloated than minimal Linux. I'm not sure if it is possible to run either Windows or OS X in pure text mode without any graphics. But the networkaudiod on both is certainly suitable for such if it is possible.

[Miska]

I just published HQPlayer 3.6.0 with support for the NAAv3 new features.

 

To help with the multicast routing issues, I have added one custom option to the configuration XML.

 

Inside <network/> element you can now add "mcast_if" attribute to control which local interface is used for NAA discovery.

 

So you can add for example

mcast_if="192.168.1.10"

inside the network element to use local interface with IP 192.168.1.10 for the NAA functionality. I didn't do much testing on this option, so YMMV, etc.

 

Please let me know if it helps or not...

 

P.S. Easiest way to edit this is to use the File / Export settings, then edit the file in text editor (make a backup copy first!) and then File / Import settings it back.

[EuroDriver]

Other than the audio backend part, my code is very much the same for all platforms. Of course platforms are otherwise quite different and Windows and OS X are much more bloated than minimal Linux. I'm not sure if it is possible to run either Windows or OS X in pure text mode without any graphics. But the networkaudiod on both is certainly suitable for such if it is possible.

 

I can't believe I am reading this. A NAA running in WS2012 R2 Essentials with AO should be possible !

 

A 2 PC set up without need for J Play :-)

 

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You

[jabbr]

Right, which is why I said earlier I wasn't aware of a DAC with, e.g., 16GB of memory into which to pre-load music files.

 

Different issue. Communication of computer and DAC is not necessarily packetized which is the theory that is being invoked to shift noise into the audible spectrum (and does seem plausible given certain conditions).

 

Assuming in memory: DSD512 (for example) -> DAC ... I'd expect a much different power plane noise pattern than the same file read from a hard drive, or sent via Ethernet (each different).

 

Think about a 1ghz square wave -- not much audible frequency harmonics if it is continuous. Now modulate the same 1Ghz square wave with a 1khz square wave -- now you've got lots of audible harmonics. So if your disc or network system does 1000 IOPS its much more like that and you expect audible harmonics.

 

My impression is that I2S isn't packetized so less of an issue, and that with USB Audio you'd want IOPS > 20,000 to minimize/eliminate this as a potential issue.

 

I found this: SSD Throughput, Latency and IOPS Explained - Learning To Run With Flash | The SSD Review to illustrate -- you'll see that for both HD and SSD, IOPS can easily be in the audible range (but RAM is way up there).

[Superdad]

I understand that you hear a better sound when you direct connect your NAA vs through your switch. I am suggesting that you might instead try a low-power router which you could easily power via a LPS, one that is actually a low powered 'cpu' running Linux rather than an actual switch -- might make a difference for you with the added benefit of doing a better job at DHCP/NAT/UPNP and other functions that your ADSL modem may not be the best for (but who knows

 

Gee, if that works you could actually attach two different NAA on your network

 

Thank you for the kind and reasonable suggestion jabbr. I may in fact give it a try .

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

The old Mac Mini would still be a good NAA, renderer or DHCP server (LOL) with 32 bit UNIX or Linux, don't you think?

 

I had quite a bit of trouble getting current Linux distros to support the Ethernet interface chipsets in the older (2009 and 2010) Mac minis. Even tried installing the appropriate drivers from Broadcom's site.

[Superdad]

That's how much is it worth, not even a please?

I don't work for you so forget it!

 

Of course it is worth a please and a thank you from me. Assuming your method actually works .

[jabbr]

Thank you for the kind and reasonable suggestion jabbr. I may in fact give it a try .

 

--Alex C.

 

You are welcome ... I'm still working on converting a mac mini into a NAA vs player ... you have me very curious about why this would have better SQ than the cubox ... would be interesting in comparing mini vs. atom (12v 3 amp draw) vs. ARM (2 amp draw).

[Miska]

You are welcome ... I'm still working on converting a mac mini into a NAA vs player ... you have me very curious about why this would have better SQ than the cubox ... would be interesting in comparing mini vs. atom (12v 3 amp draw) vs. ARM (2 amp draw).

 

IIRC, CuBox-i is most of the time below 500 mA @5VDC...

[Superdad]

IIRC, CuBox-i is most of the time below 500 mA @5VDC...

 

Yes, and don't accidentally feed one 12V like I did to my CuBox-i4Pro. Now I have a $130 paperweight!

[johann]

Of course it is worth a please and a thank you from me. Assuming your method actually works .

 

A smiley, that's better. Of course it works.

 

sudo route -nv add -net 224.0.0.199 -interface eth0 (or whatever if the NAA is on)

For Mac with OS X Internet sharing. i.e. Bridging

 

sudo route -nv add -net 224.0.0.199 -interface bridge100 (or whatever bridge the NAA is on)

 

For Mac with normal multiple networks

 

sudo route -nv add -net 224.0.0.199 -interface en0 (or whatever if the NAA is on)

 

To make it persistent through you have to add it to some startup script that either runs at boot, your login or when you start hqplayer.

 

 

[victor]

I just published HQPlayer 3.6.0 with support for the NAAv3 new features.

 

To help with the multicast routing issues, I have added one custom option to the configuration XML.

 

After so many unsuccessful tries to solve my multicasting problems, the new versions just worked out of the box. I updated the NAA and HQP side and not even using the new "mcast_if" property, my HQP was able to find my NAA when both PCs are directly connected through ethernet cable.

 

Thanks!

 

Victor.

 

P.S.: Moving now to performance issues in another thread.

[johann]

After so many unsuccessful tries to solve my multicasting problems, the new versions just worked out of the box. I updated the NAA and HQP side and not even using the new "mcast_if" property, my HQP was able to find my NAA when both PCs are directly connected through ethernet cable.

 

That's great!

 

We should have checked what versions each of us were using, right?

[victor]

That's great!

 

We should have checked what versions each of us were using, right?

 

It would have made all the sense but I thought that I was using the latest available.

 

Thanks for your help Johan!