Couple or De-couple floor speakers

[HIFI]

Cement slab floor and deep/plush shag carpet . . . What is recommended for stand/no stand/spikes/ space under speakers?

[brunk]

Those are bookshelf speakers right? I have bookshelfs and I use Sand-filled stands that are spiked to the floor, with lead shot bags on top of them to couple to the stand, not WAF compatible lol. If you get stands with a large mounting plate, it's recommended to put a heavy weight on top the speakers so they are coupled to the stand. If you're using a small mounting plate, you may need to drill the mount into the enclosure so they dont fall off so easily. I use Pyle Pro stands that have a very large plate and can accomodate 100 lbs. Slightly off topic, but I have found that using high end bookshelfs with a decent sub properly crossed over rivals floor standers 3-5 times the price, especially in a smallish room.

[HIFI]

More info . . . these are 40 inch tall speakers at 110 pounds.

[xyz]

Try it both ways and make and pick the one that sounds best for you. For me, I usually prefer spikes.

[cjf]

Spikes are the ticket as long as you have holes pretapped into the speaker enclosure already and as long as they can be leveled. Rubber feet work also but are not as stable in my experience.

 

If you don't have threads you'll have to get creative. A set of speakers I owned in the past had no provisions for feet so I ended buying some spiked stands from a company named SoundOCity called "Outriggers". Nice product but they do raise the height of the speaker a few inches which may or may not be a bad thing depending on your speakers On/Off-Axis capabilities and your listening position.

 

I am jealous of your concrete floors though, something I wish I had

[bdiament]

Hi HIFI,

 

Cement slab floor and deep/plush shag carpet . . . What is recommended for stand/no stand/spikes/ space under speakers?

 

In my experience, spikes will *change* the sound, real isolation will *improve* it (a *lot*).

 

As someone else has suggested, you might want to try both and hear for yourself.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[JohnMH]

Per Jim Smith's Get Better Sound book de-coupling (isolation?) is preferred. I've been confused by this myself, as my B&W 801s are factory equipped with spikes. Apparently that's what John Bowers intended. Think I'll try it both ways. I also have a concrete slab-on-grade basement floor that I would like to just have some throw rugs on around the listening position(s). Initially I would like to have them on casters at least until they are properly positioned.

[HIFI]

Hi HIFI,

 

 

 

In my experience, spikes will *change* the sound, real isolation will *improve* it (a *lot*).

 

As someone else has suggested, you might want to try both and hear for yourself.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

"Real Isolation". Do you mind explaining so I can put my best foot forward? I am also thinking about airspace under speakers. My ESS Have 12" Passive on low area of baffle and 12 woofer above it.

[goldenpiggy]

Cement slab floor and deep/plush shag carpet . . . What is recommended for stand/no stand/spikes/ space under speakers?

 

From my personal experience, a carpet-covered slab flooring (such as yours) should not exhibit much in terms of room coupling and inciting resonance. That 4000psi concrete floor is solid! So I would be surprised if you hear much difference putting the speakers on spikes. The effect most prominent may be from elevating/angling of the drivers when you use spikes.

 

I've had problems with older crawl space and basement homes that use floor joists made of 2x4 trusses and solid 2x8 or 2x10. The flooring flexes easily and bass can become boomy. My last house had laminate flooring over TruJoist I-beams and had no issue.

 

I would worry more about speakers close to walls and windows. Wall coupling can alter your low freq response tremendously, especially if you have ported/vented speakers. In live sound, I take advantage of corner and floor coupling to get more slam out of subs, at expense of accuracy, of course.

 

If you are really serious about this, try to borrow an RTA or rent a speaker processor such as Driverack 260 from a PA rental place (maybe around $25 a day). You'll need the RTA mic with also. Generate some pink noise and see how the spikes effect the freq response. Granted it's only 31-band but you could might be able to see some peaks due to resonance.

 

FWIW, I removed the soft gel bottom from my Gallo speakers and now the cast aluminum base rests on laminate flooring. Bass output improved and it hasn't gotten worse in terms of boomy or muddy sound.

 

Cheers,

JR

[bdiament]

Hi HIFI,

 

"Real Isolation". Do you mind explaining so I can put my best foot forward? I am also thinking about airspace under speakers. My ESS Have 12" Passive on low area of baffle and 12 woofer above it.

 

By "real isolation", I'm referring to devices that will block vibration transmission down to the low single digits. This criterion eliminates a large number of commercial products being sold as "isolators".

 

A good set of roller bearings will provide real isolation. A good set will have a resonance in the low single digits and minimal damping. If the ball is pushed to the top of the roller bearing "cup" and released, the resonance can be viewed by how many times per second the ball oscillates. The damping can be viewed by how long the ball rolls before it stops. So, the ideal is for the ball to move as slowly as possible (lowest resonance frequency) and to continue to roll for as long as possible (least damping).

 

If you perform this test on two different roller bearing designs, I have found that the better performer here will be the *audibly* better performer when it is under your components.

 

I don't know the exact speakers you are using and so, don't know if they need any sort of stand or whether they would normally be placed on the floor.

 

Here's what I'd try:

Measure the footprint of your speakers and get the following from a home supply store or similar:

1. One ~1/2 thick, smooth marble tile per speaker. Try to get a tile as close as possible in size to the footprint of the speaker. A *little* larger is not a problem (other than perhaps visually). A *little* smaller is fine.

The key is that the tile have one side that is as smooth as possible.

and as an *optional* (not absolutely necessary in all cases) addition:

2. One ~1" thick, rectangle of plywood, sized as close as possible to the footprint of the speaker. If the speaker has a completely flat bottom, this isn't an absolute requirement but it can add further damping to the marble tile. If the speaker bottom is not completely flat, the plywood is a good idea.

 

The set up:

1. When you have determined the best placement for the speakers in the room (see this article for help), temporarily mark the floor with tape. If the speakers have been toed in for optimal setup, follow the outline of the speaker placement. Then move the speakers away for now.

2. Place a trio of roller bearings in the largest *equilateral* triangular pattern that will fit within the speaker's footprint. (I usually leave about an inch from the edge for added safety.)

3. Place the balls in the roller bearing bases.

4. Place the marble tile, smooth side down atop the roller bearing balls.

5. If you got plywood, place it atop the marble tiles.

6. Place the speaker atop the plywood (or if no plywood, atop the marble tile).

 

If all is done right, a gently push and release will cause the speaker to jiggle like Jello on springs. Care must be taken with small children, large pets and some adult guests - all should be kept well clear of speakers or components atop roller bearings. (Too hard a push and it will tumble down. With care, there is no issue. My 55 pound dog and both cats visit the studio/listening room regularly. I always warn guests to keep clear.)

 

Lastly, if the speakers do indeed require stands to get the proper height, there are two options:

1. Mount the speaker to the stand as rigidly as possible (perhaps with spikes) and "float" the stand on roller bearings.

2. Mount the stand as rigidly as possible (perhaps with spikes) and "float" the speakers on the stand.

 

I have a feeling option 1 will be easier to accomplish.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Bear]

I love these from Herbie's Audio - just put under your spikes. Really tightened my speakers up and make it really easy to move them around so you can adjust the speaker position just right.

 

Cone/Spike Decoupling Glider

 

 

 

brass

 

 

 

stainless steel

 

 

 

titanium

 

 

 

 

Reviews

 

Loudspeaker spikes are more effective when used in conjunction with Herbie's dBNeutralizer decoupling, especially with wood or suspended floors, whether carpeted or bare. Likewise, if your spikes couple firmly to your cabinet and are themselves solid and relatively free of coloration, they will complement Herbie's Decoupling Gliders very well by easing some of the workload and making the Gliders even more efficient. (Herbie's Cone/Spike Decoupling Gliders are used under your present spikes or cones.)

 

Features fiberglass-reinforced dBNeutralizer™ decoupling base and extra-thick brass, stainless steel or titanium disk. Fitted into Magic Sliders, they can be used on virtually any kind of floor, bare or carpeted, with easy-sliding mobility. Extra-deep conical indentation prevents spike from slipping out when lateral pressure is applied. Suitable for audio racks, stands and loudspeakers of virtually any weight. 1-3/8" diameter by 1/2" tall. With speaker load, height from bottom of Glider to bottom of conical indentation is about 5/16" (8mm).

 

Brass: superb hi-end results with most audio systems (our default recommendation).

 

Stainless steel: superb hi-end results with most audio systems.

 

Titanium: best-looking and best-sounding results possible.

 

Cone/Spike Decoupling Glider

 

brass: $14.89 ea.

 

stainless steel: $17.89 ea.

 

titanium: $22.49 ea.

[REShaman]

I love these from Herbie's Audio - just put under your spikes. Really tightened my speakers up and make it really easy to move them around so you can adjust the speaker position just right.

 

Cone/Spike Decoupling Glider

 

 

 

brass

 

 

 

stainless steel

 

 

 

titanium

 

 

 

 

Reviews

 

Loudspeaker spikes are more effective when used in conjunction with Herbie's dBNeutralizer decoupling, especially with wood or suspended floors, whether carpeted or bare. Likewise, if your spikes couple firmly to your cabinet and are themselves solid and relatively free of coloration, they will complement Herbie's Decoupling Gliders very well by easing some of the workload and making the Gliders even more efficient. (Herbie's Cone/Spike Decoupling Gliders are used under your present spikes or cones.)

 

Features fiberglass-reinforced dBNeutralizer™ decoupling base and extra-thick brass, stainless steel or titanium disk. Fitted into Magic Sliders, they can be used on virtually any kind of floor, bare or carpeted, with easy-sliding mobility. Extra-deep conical indentation prevents spike from slipping out when lateral pressure is applied. Suitable for audio racks, stands and loudspeakers of virtually any weight. 1-3/8" diameter by 1/2" tall. With speaker load, height from bottom of Glider to bottom of conical indentation is about 5/16" (8mm).

 

Brass: superb hi-end results with most audio systems (our default recommendation).

 

Stainless steel: superb hi-end results with most audio systems.

 

Titanium: best-looking and best-sounding results possible.

 

Cone/Spike Decoupling Glider

 

brass: $14.89 ea.

 

stainless steel: $17.89 ea.

 

titanium: $22.49 ea.

 

I use Herbie's Audio isolators as you and find that they perform excellently. Though I am curious about Barry's recommendation which I have been reading about for nearly a year. Now I am finally asking Barry what do you mean by roller bearings and where does one procure them? How many? What size? Pretend I asked all the right questions so that when you finish I will be well informed as you often do.

Best,

Richard

[sshd]

If all is done right, a gently push and release will cause the speaker to jiggle like Jello on springs.

 

Will the speakers jiggle when you turn up the volume? Is this a good thing?

[Jud]

Barry, have you tried your recommendations on non-dipole, non- panel speakers? I have some concern bearings will allow deep bass signals through dynamic speakers to translate into enclosure movement rather than moving air toward the listener.

[bdiament]

Hi Richard,

 

...Now I am finally asking Barry what do you mean by roller bearings and where does one procure them? How many? What size? Pretend I asked all the right questions so that when you finish I will be well informed as you often do...

 

When I refer to a roller bearing, I am referring to one type of mechanical low-pass filter. Another example of a mechanical low-pass filter would be an air bearing. I use both types in my system.

 

So what is a mechanical low-pass filter? It is a device that acts as a "spring". Think of a roller bearing as a sort of horizontally oriented spring, while an air bearing might be a vertically oriented spring.

 

Every spring, when stretched (or compressed) and then released will tend to return to its original state. This will take a while and the spring will tend to oscillate, initially going past its original state, coming back again and passing once again but to a smaller degree. The passing continues, each time to a smaller degree until the spring is finally at rest.

 

The rate at which the spring oscillates is its resonance frequency. A well designed roller bearing or air bearing will have a resonance in the low single digits (say 2 or 3 Hz). The bearing will transmit some vibrations, i.e. vibrations can pass through the bearing, say from the shelf it sits on to the gear it supports. Vibrations at frequencies below the resonance up to about 1.4 times the resonance frequency will pass. Vibrations at frequencies greater than about 1.4 times the resonance will be attenuated. Hence, the "low-pass". Since this is a mechanical device and not an electronic circuit designed to filter frequencies above a certain one, we have our mechanical low-pass filter.

 

With a mechanical low-pass filter, the "knee" of its filtering curve is, as mentioned above, at about 1.4x the resonance of the device. The steepness of the roll-off above resonance (i.e. the degree of filtering and in this case, the depth of the isolation) is determined by the amount of damping on the spring. To wit: the less the damping, the steeper the roll-off, i.e., the greater the isolation.

 

A roller bearing of the type I'm referring to will be a small ball that sits in a small "bowl" or "cup". If the ball is pushed to the top edge of the cup and released, it will roll down the side of the bowl, pass the center and go partially up the other side of the bowl. Then it will return, passing the center toward the side from which it was released, etc.

 

The rate at which the ball oscillates in the bowl can be thought of as its resonance frequency. The slower the ball moves, the lower the resonance. Since isolation will begin at about 1.4x the resonance, the lower the resonance, the sooner isolation begins.

 

The flip side of this would be a device (there are plenty marketed as isolators) with a resonance much higher than the low single digits. Some have resonances well into the audible bass range. These, no surprise, will bloat the bass. Since isolation will being at ~1.4x wherever this resonant peak is, a good part of the bottom of the audio spectrum (a *critical* part for this purpose) will pass through the device as if it wasn't there; there will be no isolation whatsoever in this part of the audible range.

 

That is why a resonance in the low single digits is important. With a resonance of, say 3 Hz, isolation will begin at approximately 1.4 x 3 = 4.2 Hz, still well below even an extended subwoofer's range.

 

We covered resonance. Now damping. I mentioned that the rate of the ball's oscillation in the cup can be seen as its resonance. The slower the motion, the lower the resonance, the sooner isolation takes effect. Damping is related to how long the ball continues to roll. If ball motion is damped, it is slowed sooner and stops rolling sooner. This translates to a shallow roll-off above the resonance frequency. A shallow roll-off means little isolation. In contrast, when there is very little damping on ball motion, the ball continues to roll for a longer time. This translates into a steeper roll-off above resonance, i.e., a larger degree of isolation.

 

You can compare different roller bearing models with this test. The one where the ball rolls more slowly and continues to roll for the longer time is the one that will provide the greater degree of isolation.

 

Here (scroll down the page) are a few photos of my ULN-8 sitting atop my own "Hip Joints" roller bearing design. (These were made for my own use only and are not a commercial product.)

 

I hope this is clear. If not, please let me know and I'll try again.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[bdiament]

Hi sshd,

 

Will the speakers jiggle when you turn up the volume? Is this a good thing?

 

The speakers will not visibly jiggle unless they are gently pushed. During music playback, even when shaking the walls with AC/DC, they don't jiggle.

 

The resonance frequency of the roller bearings I use is in the low single digits. This is well below the range even an extended subwoofer will reach. (And yes, I have my subs on my roller bearings too.) So the speakers -and subs- don't even "see" the roller bearings.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[bdiament]

Hi Jud,

 

Barry, have you tried your recommendations on non-dipole, non- panel speakers? I have some concern bearings will allow deep bass signals through dynamic speakers to translate into enclosure movement rather than moving air toward the listener.

 

I've tried them under all sorts of speakers, including quasi-omni monopoles (i.e., box speakers). As I mentioned in my response to SSHD, the resonance frequency of a well designed roller bearing will be far below what even an extended subwoofer will reach. The speakers (and subs) don't even "see" the roller bearings.

 

As always, I hope no one simply takes my word for this. My intent is to encourage others to experiment and to draw their own conclusions. This is what I did and it completely blew away the idea put forth in some quarters that one hears what they expect to hear. I expected to hear absolutely nothing. Boy, was I wrong.

 

Applied to my loudspeakers, I described the difference between having my speakers "afloat" on roller bearings vs. having them stand on the floor as the latter meaning my speakers were "bound and gagged". The differences weren't very subtle.

 

The first ones I tried were a commercial design that has been around for many years. An acquaintance spoke very highly of them, so I rented a set from the Cable Company. Once I heard what they could do -- that is, once I got my jaw back up off the floor ;-}, I started to consider how the rollers might be even better. That led to to create my own design, which I call Hip Joints and to have some prototypes made by a local machinist.

 

I heard the same thing with Townshend's wonderful Seismic Speaker Stands, also with many different types of speakers. The results were the same in every case - I'd never go back to having my speakers without rollers under them.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[REShaman]

Thank you Barry. Your description is clear as speakers on roller bearings. ;>}

With appreciation for your time and expertise,

Richard

[orgel]

When I refer to a roller bearing, I am referring to one type of mechanical low-pass filter. …

 

Barry--

 

Thanks so much for this clear, cogent explanation (and thanks to Richard for asking the question). It really made the lightbulb appear in a balloon over my head. Love those "aha" moments.

 

Sadly for my budget, now I've got my eye on those Townshend Seismic Sink Platforms.

 

--David

[goldsdad]

I have some concern bearings will allow deep bass signals through dynamic speakers to translate into enclosure movement rather than moving air toward the listener.

 

Newton's Third Law of Motion: "To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction." I would expect these bearings to increase the freedom of the enclosure to move backward and forward in reaction to a driver's motion. Will the magnitude of this movement be great enough to have an audible effect, though?

 

I believe Barry uses the bearings to provide the speakers with some isolation from horizontal movements in the floor.

[bdiament]

Hi Richard,

 

...what do you mean by roller bearings and where does one procure them? How many? What size?...

 

I realize I answered your first question but not the rest.

 

There are a number of commercial roller bearings. The first ones I tried were Symposium's original Rollerblocks. They're wonderful. After hearing what they did for my electronic components (and *seeing* what they did for video gear like a DVD player), I decided to experiment with some ideas of my own, to shoot for an even lower resonance and less damping on ball motion. The result was my own roller bearing design, which I had made for my own use.

 

I use roller bearings in sets of three, placed in the largest equilateral (this is important) triangular pattern that will fit under the gear being supported. The equilateral arrangement maintains ease of ball motion in different directions in the horizontal plane as well as allowing for easy rotational motion.

 

The size is a function of the roller bearing design. I use the same ones under my DVD player, DAC, line stage, power conditioner, amps, speakers and subwoofers.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[REShaman]

Hi Richard,

 

 

 

I realize I answered your first question but not the rest.

 

There are a number of commercial roller bearings. The first ones I tried were Symposium's original Rollerblocks. They're wonderful. After hearing what they did for my electronic components (and *seeing* what they did for video gear like a DVD player), I decided to experiment with some ideas of my own, to shoot for an even lower resonance and less damping on ball motion. The result was my own roller bearing design, which I had made for my own use.

 

I use roller bearings in sets of three, placed in the largest equilateral (this is important) triangular pattern that will fit under the gear being supported. The equilateral arrangement maintains ease of ball motion in different directions in the horizontal plane as well as allowing for easy rotational motion.

 

The size is a function of the roller bearing design. I use the same ones under my DVD player, DAC, line stage, power conditioner, amps, speakers and subwoofers.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

Ah, Barry, you heard me praying for the response you just supplied. Yes, I was hoping for the more you provided just now, but I thought it was rude to "push". I am chuckling at the synchronicity we are sharing. Thank you for the answers to rest of my questions. I am motivated to follow through and discover for myself what you already know and have shared with us consistently.

 

With appreciation,

Richard

[cgregory4]

My OCD solution.

 

The couple part: Two 12" X 18" X 3 1/8" California black granite blocks. (This size works for most modern speakers, but other sizes are available -- for a price.) They will arrive in separate wooden crates via the FedEx Ground man who will curse both you and some of your ancestors. Uncrate granite blocks and place blocks at speaker positions.

 

The De-couple part: Go online and purchase the thinnest decoupling material you trust. I used Herbie's small thin dots. (Herbie and others will recommend thicker material -- I disagree). I cut each dot in half (semi-circles) and placed several around the edges of the speaker base. Place large speakers on granite blocks. If you have 'done well', the dots will compress to the point where the gap between the speaker bases and the blocks is not noticeable -- but it is there.

 

Allow the 200+ lb X 2 assemblies to 'simmer' overnight.

 

Turn on Knopfler's 'Six Blade Knife' and experience 'tight' sound -- top to bottom.

 

Additional advantage, and, at no extra cost: Although the granite/speaker weight will 'settle in', the granite block surface is, to a specified degree, polished. Therefore, relocating the speakers to any reasonable position only requires you to suffer the indignity of lying on the floor and pushing the granite base to 'toe-in', move away from walls, or whatever. It glides 'relatively' easily, but, once again, will 'settle in' wherever your 'final' placement position.

 

Rest easy -- knowing your system will sound better than ever after your hernia surgery.

[bdiament]

Hi Richard,

 

Ah, Barry, you heard me praying for the response you just supplied. Yes, I was hoping for the more you provided just now, but I thought it was rude to "push". I am chuckling at the synchronicity we are sharing. Thank you for the answers to rest of my questions. I am motivated to follow through and discover for myself what you already know and have shared with us consistently.

 

With appreciation,

Richard

 

If my reply was incomplete, as it was, please let me know. I guess that synchronicity you mentioned made me lucky today. ;-}

 

The Cable Company is a great way to check out things like this (not just cables). That is exactly what I did several years ago when I rented a set of Rollerblocks to play with for a few weeks. I was not prepared for the journey on which they would send me, culminating in my own roller design, under everything in the room.

 

A caveat though: As I mentioned in my own article on the subject:

 

In my experience so far, there has been only one system that did not show the performance benefits I'm describing. It turns out that system had two characteristics which must be dealt with first, evidently even higher priorities than vibration isolation:

 

First, it was connected to a garden variety, el cheapo terminal strip rather than a good AC conditioner. Second, all equipment cables (line level, speaker and AC) were gathered in a jumble behind the racks. All three types need to be properly "dressed", to borrow a term from our friends "across the pond" in Great Britain. That is, they should be separated from each other.

 

So what I learned from that experience is that "dirty" AC and improper cable routing can obscure even the great benefits provided by vibration isolation. Only when there is clean AC and proper cable routing has been attended to will the benefits of vibration isolation be evident.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[REShaman]

Hi Richard,

 

 

 

If my reply was incomplete, as it was, please let me know. I guess that synchronicity you mentioned made me lucky today. ;-}

 

The Cable Company is a great way to check out things like this (not just cables). That is exactly what I did several years ago when I rented a set of Rollerblocks to play with for a few weeks. I was not prepared for the journey on which they would send me, culminating in my own roller design, under everything in the room.

 

A caveat though: As I mentioned in my own article on the subject:

 

In my experience so far, there has been only one system that did not show the performance benefits I'm describing. It turns out that system had two characteristics which must be dealt with first, evidently even higher priorities than vibration isolation:

 

First, it was connected to a garden variety, el cheapo terminal strip rather than a good AC conditioner. Second, all equipment cables (line level, speaker and AC) were gathered in a jumble behind the racks. All three types need to be properly "dressed", to borrow a term from our friends "across the pond" in Great Britain. That is, they should be separated from each other.

 

So what I learned from that experience is that "dirty" AC and improper cable routing can obscure even the great benefits provided by vibration isolation. Only when there is clean AC and proper cable routing has been attended to will the benefits of vibration isolation be evident.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

In the future, Barry, I shall follow your admonishment, and you're also lucky, thoughtful, thorough...enough admiration.

 

Your insights into clean power, cabling dressed and routed replicates my experiences. I hired my electrician, who is a musician as well, and had his crew install dedicated 20amp lines to my equipment. Found that The Shunyata Dark Field Elevators (which I love just as is) and keeping every cable dressed added to the enhancement.

Really important clue to performance benefits.

The Cable Company who I deal with rented several cables to me and allowed for substitutions and with everything in place, clean lines, routing accomplished, isolation, switching from one tier of cable to another, was discernible to my ears and gave me the comfort and confidence to order fairly expensive cables about which I was already familiar with the sound.

Best,

Richard