Mytek Multichannel 8x192 DSD capable DAC

[ccclapp]

call him it works

 

[wappinghigh]

"Thanks for the response on Computeraudiophile Michal..

 

Yeh. Sure, I could use firewire if you want. My main music server is a mac pro, so no problem if it gives the same driver support with Pure Music, and I can play DSD files (unconverted to PCM) from sites like Channel Classics and Bluecoast records..

 

I just want to get going with this…so if the USB driver is going to take months, Firewire is fine.

 

Great to here about the DB25/Tascam RCA cable!! How can I get one? I'd also like 2 XLR balanced to unbalanced RCA cables for the stereo output on the 8x192 as well if this is possible.

 

How do I order the cables? Can you email me an invoice or something. They aren't on the store.

 

I have already paid for a "card" (any card) in the "8x192 bundle", via AWave (Lewis Chiodo) here in Melbourne Australia…

 

What do you want me to do?

 

Cheers"

 

Yeh I get the hint to call him.... but he did ask for an email

 

 

 

[wappinghigh]

Here are the links (if anybody is interested) in a possible DAW option:

 

This soundcard: http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_hdspe_madi.php But, is this card DSD capable?

 

with this Mytek card: http://www.mytekdigital.com/usstore/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=95 option 14 on the Mytek store page. The "DIOCard MADI"

 

with this software: http://www.merging.com/products/show?product=1&page=5 It is my understanding only the "mastering pack" gives you DSD...

 

I must admit I am tempted to go down this route anyway, if it can be confirmed this will work...but I'd like to know the facts first about RCA cable availability. Also driver support for firewire and USB... I say again. Be honest and practical. Are we talking weeks, months, or years? Answers for both stereo and multichannel DSD please.

 

[audiozorro]

I absolutely love the LIO-8 and use it for my Mac and Windows music servers and the Auraliti PK90 USB. I remain amazed at the wide capabilities and sonic performance of the LIO-8. Barry Diament would be a better source to detail just how superb and versatile the MH products are.

 

I guess Macs have often and long been a better platform for pro-audio which is traditionally MH customer base. My opinion is that you do not have to change computer platforms, but you do need to add a Mac (a used Mac Mini would be an inexpensive addition) for fully utilizing all that the LIO-8 can do.

 

Based on my experience and what other users almost universally say about DACs like the LIO-8 or Mytek DSD DAC, is that once you have these DACs you stop looking or yearning for some other supposedly better DAC. You really believe that what you have is the best.

 

[Miska]

If the RME+8x192 with MADI combination works, then I could make it work too. But it's quite a bit of work, and I don't have this combo to test with, so I'd rather not go that route if possible...

 

Also driver support for firewire and USB... I say again. Be honest and practical. Are we talking weeks, months, or years? Answers for both stereo and multichannel DSD please.

 

I know from experience that it is really hard to tell how challenging the "last mile" is before it's done...

 

Bringing DSD to non-custom-built -systems is a bit bumpy ride.

 

 

[mytek]

Do you mean the small white apple remote control?

 

How do you get it working with DSD?

 

Regards, Michal, Mytek New York

 

[audiozorro]

Most CA readers really appreciate people that are helpful and willing to share their expertise and experiences.

 

What many readers hate are windbags who live to talk and argue.

 

Fortunately the CA site strongly favors the former.

 

[Miska]

Apple's IR it's digital volume control, but works for DSD too. Do you mean the small white apple remote control?

 

Yes, that one.

It works just fine on MacMini with BootCamp Win7 Ultimate installation, and with HQPlayer...

 

And since I now have a digital volume control for DSD too, it just works. Which was a needed sub-feature to bring multichannel speaker adjustments for DSD.

 

 

[wappinghigh]

Was that comment directed at me?

 

Michal, if you are online now, and are free, I'd appreciate if you could PM me.

 

Cheers

 

[audiozorro]

No, my comment was for Caleb who reached a milestone of just over 100 posts.

 

Sorry in the future I will be more careful in directing comments to specific people when necessary.

 

Perhaps my only other further comment to you would be that I appreciate your willingness to be a pioneer. I just don't want you or wish anyone in this hobby that I enjoy to become frustrated. IMO you are on the bleeding edge and others have stated that you are probably in for a bumpy ride. If that diminishes your enjoyment my advice is to step back or change course. Some people really enjoy being on the leading edge and have the technical skills to build bridges or develop products that overcome or surpass commercial obstacles or products.

 

[wappinghigh]

http://www.rigisystems.net/index.php/usbpalen.html

 

I don't really understand the issue with the ASIO driver..

 

I thought everybody was saying it's Rigisystems this, Rigisystems that (who are holding it back)... is that what you are all saying?... that they have released this interface card without driver support?? It clearly states in the product specs that there is both Win7 and OSX core audio support. I don't understand.

 

Also I have come across a post (from a respected authority) who says Steinberg was responsible for developing the ASIO driver see:

 

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue59/dsd.htm (it's a great DSD resource BTW)

 

Now Steinberg as some may know are the developers of one of the major DAW's (cubase). I'd imagine, this is a directly competing product with Emerging's Pryamix..of course, they have their own audio interfaces as well...

 

If Steinberg had control of the development of the driver, you would think they would be bursting at the seams to get out a simple DSD based solution...

 

So just what is going on here? Which team is developing the driver? Is it a licensing conflict or dispute or something?

 

Now google is a beautiful thing. Because suddenly the whole world can be brought closer together, and "hiding" behind the real issues, can no longer be done anymore. Such is the speed and breadth of the internet's reach.... Now I'm not saying this is the case here, because more often than not, google will lead you up the completely wrong (and false) path. Heck, it got me to buy the wrong DB25 cable (with the wrong pinout)! But google allows mere mortals to delve a bit into the technology and it's development. It helps us try to figure out what's going on...

 

So can someone please explain to consumers (in plain English) just what IS going on? Can we please get to the bottom of the real issue here? Thanks.

 

 

[ccclapp]

Wappinghigh

 

With my utmost respect, I have to say I don't see " the real issues here"...

Myteks product is what it is. It is not more or less than that. You may want it to be different, or to work better than it does, but that is not relevant ( no offense intended, truly). You decided to buy, sight unseen and before you really understood it's current capabilities and limitations. Possibly their limited and less than up to date website led you astray. That is regrettable. However I don't believe Mytek intentionally, or inadvertently is misleading their customers. Instead I think you did not fully understand tube product. Maybe they can be faulted for not replying to your post purchase questions fast enough. Maybe because these are not their normal customer ( pro audio) issues and maybe they are not equiptment to deal with " consumer" issues as well as wished for. But again it is what it is and they are who they are, many are happy with that but you seem not to be. Again no offense intended, buy yelling about this possible mis match won't help. If you have an unused item you have recently bought! I would expect you could return iy, or sell it at a nominal losss. If you choose to keep it, please stop complaining for what you have and the timeframe in which the company operates...you made the choice. They make their own choices about there they want to head and what they want to focus on, be it USB driver oe ksonething else, that's their choice, not ours.

 

As to the breakout cable, that will get resolves with a little effort on your side ( maybe more than it should take, again likely because this is not their main demand).

 

You are great to start this thread and your motivations are clearly sincere and positive, intending to progress our collective cause. Cheers to you for that!!! On the other hand you are sounding like a complainer, when you are choosing to be in the position you are in with the product you choose to keep. This does not advance the cause, as it is the main reason pro gear companies shy from the consumer market... Too much handholding/ maintenance/support. Just as many architects don't to residential work.

 

Again with true respect, please consider: if you don't want the unit in the form it exists, get rid of it. If you do want it, accept it, learn how best to use it but please don't complain or blame Mytek (except possibly being slow to help you obtain a non traditional breakout cable.

 

I hope you take this post in the positive light it was intended.

 

Thanks

 

[wappinghigh]

Hey there. Thanks for the comments. Sorry if I sounded unhappy. I'm not. I knew exactly what I was getting into. Other than the USB card issue, I don't feel disappointed...... I'm not complaining, and I have absolutely no issues with Michal or Mytek. To the contrary, I admire what they are doing.

 

So sure, I may on sell my DAC. But curiosity is in my nature. I just want to get to the bottom of the issues first. I want facts. Not hearsay, or maybe's, "it's coming" or...it's "just pro-audio"...etc..

 

The "real issue" is that USB ASIO driver. You have to understand this USB driver issue is not just with the 8x192. It also applies to the 2x192. And this is not being marketed for pro-audio. This is well and truly for audiophiles...Who knows, that card may well be in YOUR 2x192 as well... I have no idea, but it just occurred to me. It kinda twigged seeing that USB card for the 8x192.... and the fact that the Mytek card has "been available" or "coming" on the website for months...yet still no proper DSD drivers (despite the info on the Rigisystem's website...). Sure, this is all hypothetical of course. But a simple co-incidence?....

 

Don't you also want to know why it is taking so long to get the ASIO driver working ? Are you not curious about this too?

 

Just why is the RigiSys USBPAL ASIO driver's DSD support "broken"?

 

[PeterSt]

[please read carefully, and when something is not clear, ask; I am Dutch you know ...]

 

First it needs the background story of my own related experiences, to bring you in the atmosphere of what is going on;

 

The Phasure NOS1 is inherently 8ch right from the start. This is about the channel configuration, the number of D/A chips, how differential is to workout, how things are paralleled. And how two normally 2ch DAC boards (PCBs) can turn into 8 channels.

Right. To date, I never really put out one 8ch unit, because of the sheer functionality imposed, which -in my case- would be about crossovers in the software domain. So, it needs some software too. Also, although some people ask for it, there are too few to really start working on this.

For a result, the output stages are now still 2ch oriented, and although the most easy to turn that into 8ch, it was not done because the software wasn't there anyway. And, too few customers insight. Priorities.

 

Looks similar so far, no ?

 

Then I started with DSD. Designed some nice stuff, and yes, this was within the USB version of the NOS1. Worked on it (throughput time) for a couple of months, until all was set and ready to produce the PCBs needed for it. Mind you, 8ch DSD.

 

Then ... I found a minor thinking error;

While the whole DAC was supposed to support 8 channels, and mind you, for the crossover thing, it suddenly came to my mind that I wouldn't know of a way to make filters in the DSD domain. And to keep in mind : this is supposed to be Direct DSD as how I call it, with nothing like PCM in sight. I know, it can be done, but maybe it is nothing for me, trying to squeeze way too many things in 24 hours already.

I must add that by now it looks like Miska is able to do it, but I guess he too will be busy with it for some time before that really goes (well), with all the necessary options involved.

 

So what is the status of this now ? Well, that people can get themselves an 8 channel NOS1, but *if* they do, DSD will be moot. It will be able to do 2ch only and all the work has been for nothing. Or ? or they apply it to 5.1 / 7.1 which was not the aim at all.

In the mean time, I am waiting. Waiting to get more smart myself - possibly waiting for someone like Miska.

or

... Or waiting for some DAW application which can do it in ASIO (they just exist), because at this moment I can't do that myself (XXHighEnd just doesn't support it - never mind the why for now).

 

So far the atmosphere.

 

But in this atmosphere the Mytek received its current status. Will Michal go as far as explaining his problems which could be as stupid as mine ? maybe not. Maybe it is sufficient to tell that all is too early. Too few customers for it. Btw, don't ask me how this purchasable unit emerged in the first place.

 

Now, as far as I can see it from a distance, a couple of things are going on.

 

First there's the ASIO standard as defined by Steinberg. This is not followed to the letter by many (playback software, drivers, maybe in-DAC firmware). This is fragile stuff, but buffer related. How a buffer is defined. Or, how more difficult it could be to define a buffer in, say, samples, while the sample rate is right in the middle of that. I know, because I know how hard it was to make such a thing for XXHighEnd. But, this *is* a culprit within ASIO applications, and this *is* a culprit when it comes down to let DSD work properly.

 

Now some get smart. dCS is one of them. They "invent" a dreaded solution to encapsulate DSD in a PCM "protocol", and up to some degree that can work. But, the implications are way more than we all can see, and now it is one of the reasons it can't work with the Mytek. But ... now suddenly we talk USB and its solution for it. It needs bandwidth beyond the USB specs in particular, and ... it sure can work. Not that the original driver developers know it, but I do.

 

Now it gets difficult, because the fact that I know doesn't help Mytek.

Mytek's problems have become two folded now, or better : there are two solutions and both are difficult to solve. First there's the ASIO thing which isn't applied properly for this application by playback software, which coheres with what the Mytek thinks of this herself. Two variables. Would the playback software be OK (and some DAW software is) then Mytek can more easily know how to adjust. Now they don't.

Next there's the dCS thing, of which Mytek is out of control because it needs knowledge of the USB driver, while the USB driver developers have no clue at all how to do things. Why ?

Well, because they are driven by a few other forces around them, and one of them is me.

 

It will be (too) hard to follow, but this really is how these things went :

 

PeterST : Hey, I need this inherent 384. I know it can be done, but I can't do all.

Affiliate : Ok, let's work out some things.

Driver developer : we have no clue (this isn't intended to sound harsh).

Afilliate : It's difficult.

PeterSt : But such and so and this and that.

Affiliate : ok, try this.

[after a few rounds]

PeterSt : Thanks, this works (and PeterSt adjust HIS driver version to let this all work).

Mytek : Hey, how can we do this.

Affiliate : Hey, you are no PeterST. Sorry man, but all is okay on our side.

 

I can tell you : all *is* okay on that USB side, but now there's too much in between to control it from my side. So, I really could, but I lack a few things :

- ASIO implementation in my own software (so, no route there);

- No test device (not even my own at this time).

 

So what it all comes down to is that now "Affiliate" is trying to solve things which

a. are wrong in ASIO implementations;

b. are wrong in hardware implementations (think firmware);

... while there are also (USB etc.) standards to be followed.

... that in the midst of OS quirks (OS/X ahead).

 

In the very end for everybody it has become a tough thing, because "Affiliate" was driven by PeterSt on a sort of command ("you think that works ? okay, we'll implement that"), which also isn't allowed to sound harsh. But what PeterSt has done in his own driver isn't exactly known at all times, nor are the solutions used (think like dCS). Or, what it really takes to let 5.6 going while 2.8 already is difficult.

 

That, in the mean time, even I myself can make the stupid thinking errors up to being virtually stuck with my own solution on the functional level, only indicates how difficult things can be for e.g. Mytek.

 

So we all end up having nothing, while 100% sure it can be done. Trust me. Even by various paths.

 

Some (DAW) software is completely decent (follows the standards 100%), but we don't use that - up to stupids like me not even using ASIO at all. For those, something like the dCS "solution" is there, but now we run into awkward means of "sample rate" selection, of which dCS says it all will be transparent to any DAC involved, which is far from the case. So, down to the merits :

 

A. Follow Steinberg's ASIO standards right to the bottom

or

B. Make your DAC and driver accept the dCS quirk.

 

I don't see how B. can be something like a blame towards either (playback) software developer, hardware developer or driver developer (while it all could be a path to the solution), so A. remains. This is software developer and hardware developer. Not the driver developer; not in this case. I know.

 

Peter

 

 

 

[wappinghigh]

Peter. Thankyou for your candid and extremely detailed answer. Outstanding. Whilst I think I follow most of what was said, I will certainly need to read over your post again in more detail. Please be patient with me. This is going to take some time. Maybe others can shine some greater insight into the technicalities of your explanation. Because what has been said clearly has significant implications for us all. Cheers

 

[PeterSt]

Well, let me at least add that Michal should respond to this. Not because I want him to (not at all), but because this is my version now, and we shouldn't bash others. I don't think I did (the contrary), but it is still my version ...

 

Regards,

Peter

 

[pacwin]

>>PeterST : Hey, I need this inherent 384. I know it can be >>done, but I can't do all.

>> Affiliate : Ok, let's work out some things.

>> Driver developer : we have no clue (this isn't intended to >>sound harsh).

>> Afilliate : It's difficult.

>> PeterSt : But such and so and this and that.

>> Affiliate : ok, try this.

>> [after a few rounds]

>> PeterSt : Thanks, this works (and PeterSt adjust HIS driver >>version to let this all work).

>> Mytek : Hey, how can we do this.

>> Affiliate : Hey, you are no PeterST. Sorry man, but all is >>okay on our side.

 

SO trying to penetrate the veiled language. You have been developing an 8 channel DAC using the USBPAL development tools. A side effect has been that your design goals re conflicting with the Mytek and as a subsidiary side effect you are consuming Rigisystems development resources, presumably to get 384 Khz sampling working, having an impact on Myteks ability to solve their problems.

 

Its interesting that the Rigisystems developers have recently posted on the JRiver forum similar kinds of thoughts.

 

"RigiSystems ASIO driver is supporting DSD since 2008. And contrary to the statement above it is working with native DSD streams. The problems are more related to how different players interpret the rather imprecise ASIO specification from Steinberg. While the ASIO driver had been tested by two very well known Japanese MI and CE companies, for many years nobody cared much for DSD. Everyone seems to face the problem how to interpret the spec.. Basically incompatibilities arise from the lack of any sequence diagrams and limited information in what state which functions are allowed and the spec. seems to interpreted differently by some players which allocate buffers in Byte size instead of sample sizes for DSD. Some information can only implicitly retrieved from the Steinberg SDK code. Our drivers are extensively tested against the most important DAWs (especially Steinbergs CuBase) for PCM and we are supporting everyone who intents to implement DSD on their player."

 

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=68450.0

 

This is the first time they seem to have entered the saga. I'm not very impressed however and you can read my response on the JRiver thread.

 

 

[wappinghigh]

And for the link.

 

Now I get it.

 

Cheers

 

 

[PeterSt]

If I read all correctly, you turn this into a strange story. But then I'm still Dutch. :-)

 

presumably to get 384 Khz sampling working, having an impact on Myteks ability to solve their problems.

 

Of course not. But I'm afraid it will be too hard to explain. This is about the dCS solution and how 5.6 could work ... for 2 channels. ... And which is not even in the "dCS spec" but will still work. So, is it totally unrelated ?

No. But now this suddenly is about what USBPAL inherently can do today, which it never could from the 2008 I read in rigi's post. This is, however, related to the number of channels, which is in order when going the PCM packed route. Not when using normal ASIO and the available DSD native channels for that.

 

Its interesting that the Rigisystems developers have recently posted on the JRiver forum similar kinds of thoughts.

 

I guess it is not. Although I can't see the real time of the post (which shows 4am here which hardly will be real), undoubtedly this post went up there after me talking to them yesterday exactly about this. I talk to them almost daily. I sure didn't ask to post something anywhere, but we did talk about the real merits of the Mytek thing, without revealing mutual NDA stuff. Notice that something like this goes like "I don't see the problem, so what *is* the problem ?".

And, might you think that this is all some kind of strange hoax, I think you can see that I sent wap a PM, and the contents in there will speak for itself (towards him).

 

Maybe it would be a good idea to not respond in the realm of "you better tell who those Japanese companies are before I ever will believe you" because this is just internet talk. Trust me, it is bigger than you can imagine and actually nothing like "tested". It is just used.

 

I am not sure whether now all this USB talk should go through me, but let's say I know a few things about it because the driver code is licenced to me, so yes I have the source. This doesn't make me responsible of course, nor will it make me some partner in crime. What does happen though, is that sometimes I may be able to help out, or at least I can try.

In this case I see "Affiliate" blamed, and while developing some things in truthful coorporation, I feel like responding to this all like I did.

If you think this is different, so be it.

 

Peter

 

 

[Miska]

that they have released this interface card without driver support?? It clearly states in the product specs that there is both Win7 and OSX core audio support.

 

There is support, but it just doesn't work very well right now...

 

Also I have come across a post (from a respected authority) who says Steinberg was responsible for developing the ASIO

 

The ASIO interface has been developed by Steinberg. But not the drivers. ASIO inteface is a way for drivers and applications to talk to each other in a way that bypasses Windows' audio layers. It's an alternative for WASAPI which has been developed by Microsoft.

 

ASIO DSD specification has been co-developed by Steinberg and Sony.

 

Implementing something according to the specifications is another matter...

 

 

[Miska]

Peter,

 

Just to make things clear. I've had my ASIO DSD working with number of different hardware for over a year. So it's not at least about playback software.

 

 

[PeterSt]

I know Miska.

And I was told so explicitly (so, now think about the merits of THIS).

 

Not sure where to go from there though. Maybe you do ?

 

[PeterSt]

Implementing something according to the specifications is another matter...

 

For example, and I am pretty sure Miska will confirm this :

 

As far as I know I support all possible sample rates in WASAPI, from 22050 up to 768000, including mixes of anything in the playlist. But you really really don't want to know how I got everything going, which is tweak over tweak over tweak. I must honestly say that all was built upon the first version of Vista (November 2006 I think) and almost nothing worked. So, today it will be more easy, but I think still not everyting works as defined "by the standards".

 

So, there is a difference between wat standards tell, and what environments allow for.

Kernel Streaming ? no problem anywhere. Thus, just saying : WASAPI is an implementation of Kernel Streaming, and suddenly we run into problems. It can be solved, but with some creativity, with tweaks.

 

And this is the danger; tweaks. They start to live their own life and no standard is there to support it.

 

Another example :

I read the other day that JRiver allows for tagging in normal WAV. This is explicitly NOT the standard; Tagging does not belong in WAV. So what happens ?

 

People start to tag around all over the place, but next my software doesn't work anymore. My fault ? no. But I'd have to adjust it, because no one will understand.

 

Last example, again about WAV;

Specifications are very clear, and the "header data" of a WAV file describes a couple of things. If I comply to that exactly, almost no downoads (like from RR) will work. 2L, same. HDTracks, ditto. Name them. Something new tomorrow ? it won't work.

All this needs tweaks in the playback software, but the tweaks themselves are dangerous within itself. This goes up to deriving the sample rate from something else (because the header lacks it). But now that "something else" is lacking, and again it doesn't work.

 

You, users, don't know much about these things. But in this way a player *has* to be full of tweaks. Really.

 

Peter

 

[wappinghigh]

I'm now starting to feel depressed about the whole USB DSD driver situation.

 

Reading all this, I don't think it will ever work reliably.

 

I think full attention should be now swung into getting stereo and multichannel DSD working on firewire....

 

[pacwin]

I dont think Firewire can necessarily be your saviour. The DICE II Firewire ASIO driver appears to be even further behind the USB PAL one. It doesnt even appear to have DSD support (that is it doesnt seem to expose the DSD extensions to ASIO which came in v2.1). We are on the bloody side of the bleeding edge.