Mytek Multichannel 8x192 DSD capable DAC

[tailspn]

What you state is accurate, with the possible exception of the Macpro being usable. While its internal architecture is Intel, it's a Apple designed motherboard, and some normal Intel functions are not implemented. For instance, my MacBook Pro can not be used with the Pyramix MassCore software, which gives exclusive command of one or more CPU cores to the application for DSP functions. While that has nothing to do with the Sonoma software, there's no guarantee of compatibility with any Apple product.

 

Besides, for the price of the Magma PCI extension box, you can build a purpose built tower that will absolutely work, and have the multiple HDD space you will want for your MCH DSD files. Seventy minuets of five channel DSD with, the Sonoma derived waveform graphics file, is about 8GB. Almost double that for 128fs files. The only advantage of the Magma box is portability. Please read the What's Best Sonoma link I posted above carefully, and we'll discuss its ramifications. Especially the part about Sonoma is not a playlist oriented device. It's a studio editing platform. It's exactly what I was searching for, but may not meet your desires.

 

To that end, don't discount the Merging Emotion. It is designed as a playback software system, complete with playlist functionality, and support for the most common/emerging interfaces. It's problem is that it is a future product. My guess is a mature version in at least a year, with initial limited versions preceding.

 

You can ask directly about its status and capabilities here:

 

http://www.merging.com/contactform/index

 

For the most candid reply, address your inquiry in the subject field to Claude Cellier.

 

Best.

 

[ccclapp]

Tailspin or anyone

 

1) Can you remind me, will an RME or Lynks card/box output DSD to the Mytek 8x192 (so it will play DSD) today?

 

2) Related questions: Assuming Mytek gets its 8x192 Firewire driver updated, is there any reason why just using the 8x192 via firewire with nothing else needed (no RME/Lynks, no DAW, no Mykerinos/Horus card, etc, etc) is not an ideal solution for listening?

 

3) If the answer to #1 is yes, isn't that much more straightforward than Mykerinos/Horus, etc, etc approach?

 

Thanks

 

[tailspn]

1) I'm only familiar, and own, both the RME and Lynx AES cards, which will not support DSD. RME does make a MADI PCI(e) card, as does Mytek for the 8X192. It's awaiting firmware to support DSD (sampling rate supported unknown), and I'm counting on its completion to interface to a Hours. Neither RME, nor Lynx makes a SDIF I/O card.

 

2/3) Absolutely kinda. All that's then needed is a player to support MCH DSD, and a computer with Firewire 400, or USB 2.0 or better. The data rate required is a little under 20Mbps, so that's no problem. And perhaps Foobar, with the native DSD plug-in, may already suffice, along with the other popular software players currently supporting DSD two channel over both USB and Firewire. And yes, it would be more straight forward than hardware assisted players, but at some cost of features. If all you want to do is load DSD files (.dsf or .dff) into a playlist, chose one, and play it, it should work fine.

 

[ccclapp]

"All that's then needed is a player to support MCH DSD"

 

Jriver right now and no limit to number of channels. Digital x-overs/room correction filters too, if desired

 

 

 

[ccclapp]

" both the RME and Lynx AES cards, which will not support DSD"

 

So is that the issue: Nothing except the Mykerinos/Horus cards will feed the Mytek DSD? Is that correct, or is there lack of agreement on this?

 

[tailspn]

Anyone know the status of the 8X192 Firewire card? Do its drivers parallel the capabilities of the Stereo192 Firewire drivers and firmware?

 

There are several of us who are pushing poor Michal to finish the MADI card for studio applications also. This 8X192 really is a Swiss Army Knife of DACS.

 

[Miska]

Jriver right now and no limit to number of channels. Digital x-overs/room correction filters too, if desired

 

HQPlayer too, although max 5.1 channels (because DSF and DSDIFF don't defined speaker mappings for more), and with speaker level/distance controls.

 

So JRiver has added digital x-overs and room correction for DSD-to-DSD? Nice, how much does it take CPU power for 5.1 channels at DSD128?

 

 

[ccclapp]

Miska

 

First let me apologies for not knowing your software better. You contribute so much to this site, whereas your brother developers are less present here. I usually list JRMC and unintentionally don't mention QHP, do to my lack of knowledge. I want to make the time to learn its capabilities. Sorry for my 1-sided references.

 

"So JRiver has added digital x-overs and room correction for DSD-to-DSD? Nice, how much does it take CPU power for 5.1 channels at DSD128?"

 

ok, so there is also no doubt you are way ahead on your knowledge that I. Do I have to back peddle a bit? My 8x192 is on the way, so I'm speaking from what I read and I may read incorrectly:

 

I understand JRMC will do DSD well

 

I understand JRMS will do 64bit filters for room correction limited only by the number of channels in your output device. Because (as I understand it) x-overs are a simplified version of room correction (not exactly but you know what I mean), I lump them together.

 

 

 

I understand JRMC will do the above DSP for library files, other streams eg MOG, games etc via a loopback.

 

I understand it will do that DSP for external sources.

 

 

WHAT ID DON'T KNOW (and maybe the above is wrong as well, correct me if so) IS THAT IT DOS ALL OF THIS TOGETHER, specifically meaning DSD DSP. Does it not?

 

 

Links relating to the above:

 

Media Center Room Correction:

 

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=68828.new;topicseen#new

 

Media Center Other internal sources:

 

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=70242.new;topicseen#new

 

Media Center External sources:

 

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=70087.new;topicseen#new

 

 

 

[tailspn]

No. The 8X192 has several plug-in interfaces. The only one I'm familiar with that supports DSD, because I use it, is the SDIF/Sony ST Optical. That's why I asked above if anyone knew if the 8X192 Firewire interface I/O card firmware tracked the capabilities of the Stereo192 Firmware interface. If it does, then your statement of driving a 8X192 via Firewire from a computer sporting one of the software DSD players should work for 5.1

 

BTW, RME and Lynx make a number of PCI interface cards for digital audio. Just not one for SDIF. The RME MADI card is great. I have no experience with the Lynx MADI, or even if they make one.

 

[ccclapp]

As seems to happen on these Mytek threads, this one is getting long, but far shorter than the 1,200 posts on the Stereo192 unit thread ;-)

 

I say that because, I believe earlier on in this thread the current firewire capabilities were discussed and included Michal of Mytek giving a precise answer (NOTE: to my eye it looked like he did not want an onslaught of consumer users for the 8x192, so read with your Pro eye).

 

I believe the gist of it was: As of TODAY the firewire interface does NOT do DSP on the 8x192. This will happen after the stereo192 driver is fully stable. Time TBD... Further, the chip in the 8x192 DAC will not handle DSD over USB. I am paraphrasing from memory, and recommend you read and correct me if I have it wrong.

 

Thanks

 

[tailspn]

In short, I agree with everything you've said. And other than the "where the hell is it" MADI interface, can offer no immediate work around solution for a consumer interface. For that matter, it's unknown to me if any of the software players support MADI.

 

I did find your summation on this thread of your communication with Michal re: 8X192. All very topical and good information. The 8X192 is not designed as a consumer/audiophile DAC, as its present interfaces demonstrate. It also has a considerable amount of its cost tied up in eight channels of excellent quality A/D converters, all of which have no value as a high end consumer DAC. Having said that, I think it's the best sounding DAC for playback of mult-channel DSD program material existing today. And I prefer its AD1995 DAC chip to all others for DSD acoustic program material. It is stunningly realistic and spacious. Also the 8X192 operates without a hitch with the "Professional/studio" interfaces it was originally designed for, namely AES/EBU for PCM, and SDIF2/3 for DSD. You will love the thing! But until a consumer interface is supported, I have to agree with you that you do need something like a Sonoma or Pyramix Mykerinos card to interface.

 

The problem it seems is in shoe-horning it into the emerging consumer DSD interfaces. The dCS DSD with PCM wrapper proposal for USB requires some amount of on-the-fly unpacking manipulation at the interface to retrieve the DSD content, and that isn't available in the 8X192. But if DSD for ASIO USB, or Firewire eventually works, you don't need it.

 

 

 

 

 

[ccclapp]

"I agree with everything you've said. And other than the "where the hell is it" "

 

Those weren't my words, I'm the patient one in the crowd, or maybe that's what you don't agree with...:-)

 

It may be easier for me, since all of this is relatively new and, while I've enjoyed it on the Stereo192, DSD is not a huge deal for me at the moment. Having said that, I want to configure a reasonably "future-proof" set-up (not that such a thing will ever exist). Being based around the 8x192 seems reasonable vs other options - I dont want to go the DAW route and other good 8ch DACs either wont ever do DSD or cost too much.

 

I want more than 2-ch for my 2.2 for room correction / x-over control.. Being surround enabled, is an easy icing on the cake for those times when it matters. Ill also run to a 2nd 2.0 / 2.1 zone and switch between the two.

 

Ideally the 8x192 would have IR or rs232 control and master volume for all channels...but I can configure around that. That capability makes the Metric Halo (LIO-8) and Prism Orpheus good alternatives, but no (future) DSD.

 

Anyway, that's whats in my brain at the moment..

 

[ccclapp]

Since youre here tailspin and by the sounds of it know about such things...

 

As described above, I'm doing 2 zones, need attenuation and generally trying to "hack it" but with great SQ results...

 

I have a couple of Extron matrix AV switchers, doing up to 8x8 or even 16x16. Would it be a mistake to use the balanced audio in those to do one or both of:

 

1) switch for analog routing from the 8x192 (eg zone 1-2 and other wacky ideas)

2) use for attenuation control direct to amps

 

If you say not bad but don't add video I can live with that. If the Extron is well separated, and can carry both that furthers my "hacking"

 

You (or others) may have no idea, but I thought Id ask...

 

[tailspn]

refers to an old movie series back in the 40's named Tailspin Tommy, about a WW-I flying hero. I took it because I was a private pilot also.

 

My "where the hell is it" profanity refers to the MADI interface card for the 8X192, which seems to be going backwards. It's not even listed in the accessories now.

 

I wish I could offer something intelligent about the Extron AV switches, but I have no experience. To get your system up and running, sure, I would use them, especially if they were passive. But even if they are not, use them to get something going. I would suggest looking at a DIY passive attenuator by Twisted Pear:

 

http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/control/jt.aspx

 

The input impedance ranges between 2.2K and 10K ohms, well within the driving range of the 8X192, and they're inexpensive. Especially if you use single sided as opposed to balanced.

 

Also, to get started, I'll loan you a 8 channel Lynx PCI AES/EBU interface card, while waiting for your DSD stuff. You can run 5.1 Channel PCM up to 176K from a software player converting DSD to PCM on the fly. Worked great for me with Foobar before I converted all my PCM material to DSD. Just mail me using my tailspn at yahoo.com

 

[ccclapp]

Wow!

 

Ill follow up...

 

[wappinghigh]

Caleb, I am totally wrapped you are getting a Mytek 8x192! And trying to get this thing playable into the consumer surround world.

 

I too have a dream Caleb

 

I am convinced this can be achieved, And I thank again tailspn for his absolutely outstanding contribution to this thread.

 

Ok. Regarding attenuation. Why don't you try a simple old fashioned surround receiver? That's what I plan to use, if I ever get my Mytek's card interface happening, and/or Emotion arrives or Sonoma releases a similar product...

 

Now before you dismiss this approach, just remember some of the old receivers made from the likes of Sony (I think ted still uses one) and NAD like my old 773 can now bought now from well under 1K on ebay. These don't have half bad analogue stages, and reasonable analog volume control. Individual channel levels can also be set within the receiver. (without using the proprietry digital room correction.)

 

This will be my initial approach if I can ever get the other issues sorted...

 

 

 

[wappinghigh]

Re your comment "where the hell is it" MADI interface..

 

I thought Mytek had one of these. A card for the RME PCIe or PCI MADI card.

 

Is what you mean the "where the hell is it" DSD MADI interface?

 

Looking at the specs of the RME MADI cards, DSD is NOT mentioned as a capability. I have double checked this several times and DSD is never mentioned as a possibility with these cards.

 

So really it still boils down to Emotion or Sonoma. Sure firewire might be "possible" as Miska says, but the crucial issue is whether it is a tried and TESTED solution...

 

 

 

 

[ccclapp]

"Why don't you try a simple old fashioned surround receiver? That's what I plan to use, if I ever get my Mytek's card interface happening, and/or Emotion arrives or Sonoma releases a similar product..."

 

...I have a great one: balanced lexicon mc12. I can do 7.2 in bypass mode and 2-ch to zone two and separately to a 3rd record zone. Your right I should likely keep using it, but...

 

I haven't figured out what yes but something in my setup is holding my sound WAY back from the approaching-nirvana level of many posters here. I'm working through it step by step. Hence the DAC , the steps toward room correction etc. Things sound a significantly better w stereo192 vs lexicon DACs. Sound I bit better direct to amp bypassing lexicon all together.

 

I've done lots of measuring in REW (even dragging my towers outside to issolate from reflections for baseline measuring...neighbors loved my 4 hours of sweeps!

 

My speakers and room are the likely by FAR the biggest issue: room sucks and speakers are passive towers sitting on effectively powered subs basically a 2.2. Top rated gear 10 yes ago, but I've never made sound good. Hence this quest...

 

 

Speakers $10k list

 

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/295/

 

Pre/pro $9k list

 

http://www.hometheater.com/content/lexicon-mc-12-preampprocessor

 

So that's my story...

 

 

 

 

 

[tailspn]

Yes, Mytek did/does have a MADI card for the 8X192. Merging/Pyramix originated a DSD format wrapper for MADI that's been used for several years. Mytek's MADI card supports PCM, and requires firmware to support DSD. That's what I'm waiting for to provide a DSD connection path from the new Hours (which doesn't support SDIF). But now I don't find it listed at all in the 8X192 accessories.

 

I don't know how the RME MADI card would support DSD, ie, who or what would supply the existing format support software to allow it to output DSD to a device capable of imputing or outputting the Merging DSD format. But the RME is entirely capable of handling it, and does so now in many studios. This is all bleeding edge stuff, so it will take time. Hours isn't even released yet.

 

You're correct that Sonoma (along with Pyramix Mykerinos cards)is/are the only plug and play mature solution(s) currently for playing a DSD file and connecting to the 8X192. But other solutions, including Emotion, are only months away, if you are interested in a DSD playback only solution.

 

[wappinghigh]

Other?....What other solutions are only months away?

 

[tailspn]

From what I've read on these threads, Firewire and USB ASIO appear to be the consumer interfaces near term to be supported by hardware/firmware, and player applications for the 8X192 playing DSD files.

 

[Miska]

I don't know how the RME MADI card would support DSD, ie, who or what would supply the existing format support software to allow it to output DSD to a device capable of imputing or outputting the Merging DSD format. But the RME is entirely capable of handling it, and does so now in many studios.

 

Since, AFAIK, RME doesn't support the needed MADI bits, both the hardware and software needs to be manually switched to DSD or PCM mode? Sure, RME could modify their FPGA firmware and drivers to support ASIO DSD to MADI too, if they wanted. Otherwise I could support the MADI DSD, but without those bits it is not very consumer-convenient. And I don't know if 8X192 mandates those bits to be in place.

 

SDIF is surely DSD-only, not that it would be problem for me since I support PCM->DSD output.

 

USBPAL used in Stereo192 supports 8 channel DSD64/DSD128 in&out, plus PCM, and works. So having a 8X192 variant of that interface would be most convenient. Firewire is another option, but in a way more complicated.

 

 

[ccclapp]

"USBPAL used in Stereo192 supports 8 channel DSD64/DSD128 in&out, plus PCM, and works. So having a 8X192 variant of that interface would be most convenient. Firewire is another option, but in a way more complicated."

 

If I understand your statement and what Michal's said to me (recounted earlier in this thread), I believe the 8x192 won't do DSD over USB, only over Firewire. I believe due to higher processing requirements for USB that the DAC chip in this unit wont support. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[tailspn]

Hi Caleb,

 

I think Michal was referring to the processing power to unbundle the DSD data using the dCS USB scheme. If he makes a USB interface card for the 8X192, I believe he stated it would only support USB ASIO. No loss of capability there.

 

[ccclapp]

Thanks for the clarification.