Aurender S10 Music Server Review

The Computer Audiophile · December 6, 2011

"The head scratcher for me, however, is why the asynchronous interfaces of such high end DACs as the Meitner and Berkeley appear to be music server sensitive."

The Meitner is not galvanically isolated.

I hope you're getting your opinion about the Berkeley from elsewhere because I haven't explicitly or implicitly said anything to that effect.

The Computer Audiophile · December 6, 2011

Hi Priaptor - Your sentence containing, "... my stereo isn't saving lives, etc., BUT, it is a huge source of my entertainment ..." is excellent :~)

I think many of us are in the same situation. I'm happy you put it the way you did. Sometimes delivery is everything.

Also, thanks for reading my reviews and respecting my opinions enough to help you make decisions. One thing I don't understand is why you were considering the Aurender S10 until reading my review. Maybe I'm a bit dense on this one. Can you help me out?

Clarification (hopefully) -> My Mac based listening as mentioned briefly in this review was not a thorough examination of the Mac platform or even near the comparison I did for the Meitner review. My opinion about my current Mac sound quality and its less than stellar performance compared to the C.A.P.S. v2.0 server and Aurender S10 was much more of a general feeling than a scientific A B C comparison. For example I would spend days listening to the Aurender S10 then switch to my Mac Pro or MacBook Pro, to test something unrelated, and get the impression the Mac was not delivering results as good as the Aurender. If this article was solely about comparing Mac v. PC v. Aurender then I would most certainly spent several days listening to A B C doing a compare/contrast type of analysis. At some point I have to trim the review down to a manageable number of words (nearly 5,000 in this review) and keep it tight enough for readers to enjoy as opposed to a technical white paper.

Honestly I'm not looking to evade answering questions here. It's simply that I think many of the questions are seeking information that can't be gleaned from the review. Addressing the apparent inconsistency is something I can do as opposed to offering an assessment of whole technologies based on this review.

Please let me know if this helps or causes more confusion.

Priaptor · December 6, 2011

million dollar question.

When I read that Meitner (according to the Chris review), implemented their USB interface without "Galvanic Isolation" making it subject to computer noise, it immediately became a no brainer for me to say, "why would I want to buy a DAC that has the potential to introduce noise via the port I am most likely to use?" One has to think that while asynchronous USB SHOULD eliminate all issues with data source, implementation as with the Meitner MA-1 surely leaves the door open for allowing noise.

I am not electrical expert, BUT, if Meitner is admitting to this "fault" what faults lie with other manufacturers.

barrows · December 6, 2011

Simple answer: everything matters (perhaps even sunspot activity?)!

Also, while some interfaces are "isolated" and some are not, there are some problems with so called "isolation".

USB 2 HS interfaces cannot be "isolated" on the USB side, so they are "isolated" on their output (typically with optocoupling or GMRs for I2S, or with a transformer for SPDIF). So, any noise products on the incoming USB signals, has the possibility to affect the performance of the USB processor, and ground noise may affect the perfromance of the clocks as well. Some interfaces are not "isolated" at all, presumably because any known method of "isolation" adds jitter of its own (Meitner, SOtM async USB card, perhaps dCS as well). Additionally, there is no such thing as complete "isolation", there are only varying degrees of attenuation/frequency of noise products-some will always get through.

The best solution would be the development of some kind of "isolator" which has the speed/bandwidth to cope with USB 2 HS signals (that is also affordable). Still, even if/when this happens, some noise will always couple through the "isolation"-so performance of the source will always matter to some extent, in terms of noise, even with async interfaces.

Priaptor · December 6, 2011

First, I respect your opinion more than most reviewers as you are willing to call them as you see them which is refreshing compared to what many other reviewers have resorted to. Your Esoteric review being one such example.

The reason why I was interested in the Aurender and wanted to wait until your review is because you stated it was your RMAF product of the year and it sounded very compelling (with a review forthcoming) BUT also very expensive, the latter obviously making a decision to buy it, more difficult. In between your report of the RMAF product of the year and your review I discovered that my DAC 8 had significant differences in SQ between PM/Audirvana Plus vs. Amarra, the latter I felt had the best SQ but horrendous user interface. The SQ was, IMO, so much better with Amarra that I purchased it even if the usability with their playlist mode was a significant detriment to the other Mac alternatives, hoping their fix was soon to be released.

I was enticed by the simplicity of the Aurender, that seems to have a fantastic user interface and IF it could deliver the SQ of Amarra with stability, I would consider the change. Then came the somewhat confusing comments (which you explained) about Mac v. C.A.P.S v. Aurender which led me to search other variables on my DAC 8 such as the asynchronous USB using a Mac v. PC, the latter I am now testing. Of course, If I could get a great user interface, simple to set up, for 1.2K using a C.A.P.S v2.0 compared to a 7K Aurender that surpassed the Mini/Amarra system, it would be a no-brainer.

Chris, I am not blowing smoke up your rear end, but in these days it is hard to find a reviewer who makes qualitative review, comparing one product vs. another and you are willing to do that more than most. Additionally, when it comes to digital, you obviously have access to more products of interest than any single individual. Lastly, while our systems are different, based on your reference speakers and associated equipment, I believe that what you look for in a system is similar to what I do as well.

Thanks

Priaptor · December 6, 2011

Great explanation and it makes sense.

I am right now in the process of trying out my first PC solution, just a trial, using a laptop with new JPlay linked to iTunes. I have a test laptop and have everything working, now I just have to get it set with my DAC8 and ready it for a nice listening session.

SoundQcar · December 6, 2011

Is anyone experiencing an issue from a laptop or desktop's USB out with this DAC?

I've gotten nothing but wonderful results here. It's been a complete non-issue with me. Maybe Ed Meitner figured out a way to do things differently? I've run two different run-of-the-mill computers into it, and get great sonics from both.

ted_b · December 6, 2011

Chris's Meitner was simply his older Mac Pro. He stated that in his review, and said any newer mac (Mac Mini, etc) would not have this issue. It doesn't.

barrows · December 6, 2011

I am using a non-isolated async USB interface in my DIY DAC. I am getting the best digital sound quality I have had with this set up.

Chris noted in his Meitner review that the USB input did not perform well with his (desktop) Mac Pro, but that it did perform well with his (presumably very low noise) CAPs with the SOtM USB pci card for output. I suspect, that as long as your computer is set up to be very low noise that the Meitner's USB interface will work well: for best performance you may wnat to experiment with ways of reducing noise on the USB input (low noise/low power computers, CAPs, or Voyage mpd players with SOtM USB output card, etc).

SoundQcar · December 6, 2011

One of the laptops I've used is an '05 Toshiba w/XP....if the age of the computer has any bearing at all regarding potential noise. It has performed fine for me.

Barrows...

Thanks for the info. I'm very satisfied with the sound I'm getting here. Eventually I might move into a dedicated all-in-one server, but only for convenience and much larger storage capability....not for a bump in sound quality.

Bob

barrows · December 6, 2011

"True, but then the dCS has the advantage of clock I/Os, which combined with the external dCS clock, and a suitable computer card with clock I/Os (like the RME I'm using) should take care of SPDIF generated jitter and maybe even exceed the performance of well implemented USB input."

A technically correct statement. Even with clock linking, SPDIF will still generate more jitter than async USB. The details of why have been discussed elsewhere on these forums.

Clock distribution (through cables and transmitter receiver circuits) adds jitter, and the SPDIF receiver itself still adds jitter. This is one reason I have never believed in the efficacy of external clocking for audio systems-in the recording studio there is often no other way, as multiple devices may need to sync to the same clock source. Async interfaces for playback only eliminates those needs and additional complexities, and results in jitter levels at virtually the same jitter as the oscillator itself.

Elberoth · December 6, 2011

Even with clock linking, SPDIF will still generate more jitter than async USB.

I would appreciate if you could point me to some whitepapers discussing this subject.

I have never believed in the efficacy of external clocking for audio systems

I have tried external clocks (dCS, Atelope) on many dCS and Esoteric components and adding the external clock was always clearly audible. The only exception was the dCS Puccini CDP - but this is an integrated, so adding external clock is debatable from the technical point of view anyway.

I guess the audibility of the external clock will much depend on the resolution of the replay system. On lesser systems, it may well go unnoticed.

Priaptor · December 6, 2011

until I read the Chris's comments. I am glad you are not getting any issues with your setup. I would love to hear users experiences with the DAC.

I am in no rush to change or get rid of my DAC8 at this point but when and if I do, I surely want to make sure I have my delivery system covered, whether it be a Mac, Windows or Linux solution. My obvious choice was an asynchronous USB solution, which I am using on my DAC8, until I read the Aurender review. However, after reading Chris's caveat about his experience with C.A.P.S 2.0 I am back to sticking to the Asynchronous USB route.

I am experimenting with a cheapo PC solution compared to my Mac Mini solution and hope to have that setup for a quasi comparison before deciding whether I want to build a PC system. I have my own ideas about what I would want in a dedicated PC server should I go that route.

Elprior · December 6, 2011

Barrows,

if you refer to the post I made about using an external clock, and to Gordon's answer, I must say this was far from a closed point.

Gordon as usually debunked the question when I asked why, when used as a trigger, it should introduce jitter.

My tests with my own components (dCS stack and async, synchronizable interface) do show that the result is better with the external clock.

Since I have no equivalent asynchronous dac, I can't compare directly, but I am a bit amuzed by your confidence on this point.

Elp

ted_b · December 6, 2011

I was simply correcting the growing misnomer that galvanic noise was an issue with all MACs and pc's when playing the Meitner. It isn't, and has been documented here. It makes sense to have this issue on your checklist, but it shouldn't be anywhere near a deal-breaker for the vast majority of computer sources.

Priaptor · December 6, 2011

just a caution, not a deal breaker. I used to sell Meitner equipment in the days when he made the most beautiful little preamp/amp combination in this removable Rosewood case. Fantastic sound especially when mated to a ProAc Tablette or Celestion SL600 so I do have a fondness for Ed's stuff.

Right now I am quite happy with the DAC8 and am getting results from my new REF250s I never thought possible. These new amps from ARC are so good it is beyond describable. My short list of DACs to listen to was Meitner, TAD C-2000, Berkeley with Alpha USB (although this is probably on the bottom) and the new Rowlands. I had a Debussy in my system for awhile and quite frankly, it was not my cup of tea. I am not putting it down, it is just not for me.

My two top for trial would have to be the Meitner and the Rowlands and if I were going to go crazy $$ wise the TAD. But I am in no rush as I said.

Encore · December 6, 2011

"... the Meitner was on my short list until I read the Chris's comments. I am glad you are not getting any issues with your setup. I would love to hear users experiences with the DAC."

Priaptor, check the Meitner review page--I and others have posted our impressions. I'm absolutely thrilled with it. I do get better sound from my Macbook Pro with Audirvana Plus compared to an old laptop with Vista (w Jriver/ASIO) but the sound with the latter is great, nevertheless.

Encore · December 6, 2011

"Please let me know if this helps or causes more confusion."

Thanks, Chris. It helped. This is good enough for me.

k-man · December 6, 2011

Priaptor,

So now the comments from Chris are the reasons for holding off trials/purchases of the Meitners AND Aurenders? I thought you may have got closure at this point. Without insulting Chris's reviewing credentials, these reviews don't and shouldn't put components as the best solution available. Strange as a PK90 owner, but I reckon and Aurender and DAC8 would make a sweet pair (your previous posts have leaned very closely to it).

Good luck anyhow!

The Computer Audiophile · December 6, 2011

Hi Priaptor - Based on my experience I highly recommend testing the Aurender S10 in your system if possible.

"My short list of DACs to listen to was Meitner, TAD C-2000, Berkeley with Alpha USB (although this is probably on the bottom) and the new Rowlands."

Also, you'd be doing a disservice to yourself to rank the Alpha/USB combo on the bottom. I've been listening to it extensively lately and I'm more impressed than I though I'd be. My C2000 review is on hold. The review sample had been shipped to the Moon and back and had an issue I didn't find until late in the process. In my review of the Meitner I considered its sound as close to the Debussy as anything I've yet heard. That information may be useful to you considering your DAC preference.

P.S. Possibly the best sound I've ever had in my room is with the C.A.P.S. v2.0 and the Alpha 2/Alpha combo. Thus why I stress you shouldn't put the Alpha 2/Alpha at the bottom of your list. I will spend more time using the Alpha 2/Alpha combo and the Aurender S10 at some point in the future. I've been impressed by the results thus far, but haven't spent enough time with this combo. Now that the review has been published I'll move on to other components before coming back to test further.

Priaptor · December 6, 2011

that helps me tremendously.

I have a local buddy that can lend me a Berkeley. Now I just have to get him to lend me an Alpha USB. They are pretty hard to come by right now.

Priaptor · December 6, 2011

either a Wavelink or Alpha USB with the DAC8. I have already been in contact with them and because the DAC8 uses proprietary drivers one would need an interface to get it to work.

I haven't ruled out anything at this point and just in the testing phase. As I said, I am very happy with some of the combos I have right now, have always (in the past) been a vinyl and CD guy so the computer audio thing is what go me back into the high end thing about a year ago. Everyday coming on this site is a learning experience and great to hear everyone's enthusiasm and experiences.

Lastly, one of the reasons I didn't like (my preference, and obviously not the vast majority of people's preferences) the Debussy is the same reason I ultimately gave up my Spectral/Wilson stuff. While incredible detail to the point of dissecting every nuance, I found this type of equipment fatiguing after about an hour and half. Just my opinion, not meant as a slight. The big mistake I made with my Spectral/Wilson gear was going for their big X1s which, IMHO, lacked the coherence of their smaller speakers. For me the Debussy was just too analytical One of my dumb evaluation tracks I always use is Chris Rea's Road to Hell where the first track is rain hitting the windshield with the windshield wipers going back and forth. If it sounds like hail instead of rain, while the source may be incredibly analytical and detailed, it is not rain and therefore not for me and that is what I found with the Debussy. It is a simple evaluation, separate from other qualities, that I always start with. There were other aspects of the Debussy that I could list, but I just found it not my taste.

earflappin · December 6, 2011

"I hope you're getting your opinion about the Berkeley from elsewhere because I haven't explicitly or implicitly said anything to that effect."

Chris, I don't want to belabor this point, but wanted to be responsive to your post.

When I saw you used a S10>BADA USB>BADA DAC combination in the Aurender review and only the BADA listed in the Associated Equipment DAC section I mistakenly assumed you would have auditioned a Mac>BADA USB>BADA DAC combination as a baseline (one of them anyways) for the following statement:

“Compared to the Aurender via AES my Macs connected via USB sound very sluggish and washed out. There is no life to the Mac based music compared to the S10's all around vibrance and solid yet controlled bass reproduction.”

My thinking was that if the BADA USB was server (source) insensitive then the BADA USB>BADA DAC combination would have sounded the same, or at least close to the same, being driven from the S10, CAPS or Mac(s). If this had been the case then I would have expected some qualification of your statement. So just to be explicit, are you saying that you didn’t listen to the BADA USB>BADA DAC on a Mac as part of your baseline for your above statement? What other DAC’s did you listen to as part of coming to this conclusion?

As an aside, let me acknowledge I don't envy you your job of writing reviews with over 200,000 potential monthly readers ready and able to critique your performance, not to mention a gallery of suppliers (including existing and potential sponsors) parsing every written and unwritten word. I think you do a great job overall and I have derived a lot of value from the site.

k-man · December 6, 2011

Priaptor,

I wasn't trying to suggest the PK90+Debussy pair to you at all. Honest!

Things in the past used to be really difficult by cross referencing loads of reviews on audio equipment to the point where I got so fed up I figured the best product out there has to be the one which never gets reviewed- Spectral!

But it took me 5 seconds in a simple swap to work out it wasn't for me (for the reasons you mentioned). I favoured the Bernings and blah blah blah blah

Hope your ears makes sense out of this.

k-man · December 7, 2011

One guy's experience on the switch from Debussy:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue57/diverter.htm

Who am I to argue?

Aurender S10 Music Server Review

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