Mike Fremer visits Shunyata

[Sri]

You think UL is a ripoff, wait till your special magic electrical outlets cause a fire and your insurance company decides to not pay your claim.

 

[barrows]

Is your Devialet UL listed? I doubt it. It plugs into the wall right?

Have you had any direct experience dealing with trying to get a product UL approved/listed?

Do you know what UL really is? Have you read any of the UL requirements?

 

[Richard Dale]

 

Socrates7: And, for the record, you don’t have to be a theist to appreciate the elegance of the creationist argument. Don’t believe me? Take a look at the arguments that Evolutionary Biologists have to tackle. I mean, there’s the entire problem of “implied spaces” -- all that spontaneous (and not necessarily advantageous) structure that seems to fall out of complexity “theory”, yet doesn’t seem necessarily required by the math that incited it. Another way to illustrate this is Gould’s excellent “Spandrels of San Marcos”. These gaps have been hilariously difficult to account for with simple Darwinistic theory, yet, do not refute the approach, but simply illuminate a gap — an “implied space”. And yet, this is “more elegant” than a beneficent creator? A moot point, at best.

 

 

 

Again, the point here isn’t to debate creationist theology, only to underscore that an epistemic bias may well be as blinding as the alternative approach.

 

 

 

Like everything by Steven J Gould that was a very interesting read.

 

 

 

I think Humberto Maturana and Francisco J. Varela's term 'autopoiesis' that they wrote about in their book The Tree of Knowledge is an improvement on straightforward adaptionism. It means that living things are defined as a process where they continually reproduce themselves. I've been searching for the best definition and explanation and I think this one in encyclopaedia Britannica Autopoietic is a pretty good account.

 

 

 

I can't currently quite work out how to connect this with the ongoing discussion on the design of power cables though.

 

 

 

Where you quote wgscott saying 'because their relevant measurable properties are the same' he seems to be wrong to me, as he appears to think that what these relevant measurable properties are is self evident, and only need to consist of capacitance, resistance and inductance. Other people who actually make and listen to cables have pointed out that it is much more complicated than that from an engineering point of view.

 

 

 

I have no idea why wgscott and everyone who doubts that power cables make a difference don't just borrow one and try it out in their system. There is a UK based forum called 'WigWam' where the members often get together to have 'bake offs' where they try out each others pieces of kit - that would seem to be a really good way of finding out rather than all this talk of quantum theory, creationism and what have you. I agree with barrows, and find someone claiming that the cables can't possibly make a difference without actually listening to them is making an extraordinary claim.

 

 

[Sri]

I seem to remember that the early monster cable demos were pretty close to a complete fraud. The comparison was monster cable against a much longer much smaller gage cable.

 

Gage matters, the rest is nonsense.

 

[k-man]

There is a UK based forum called 'WigWam'...

 

A haven for the non-believers in cables. The word 'foo' keeps cropping up.

 

[Sri]

Outlets need UL approval, electronic equipment needs a different set of approvals. Look at your mac or pc, you'll see the international approvals.

 

[1audio]

Many of the products I work on have had UL listing and have been through the tests. They are expensive but they mostly make sense in engineering terms. The UL standards are not created in a vacuum by profit crazed managers, they are actually negotiated among members of the industry and other experienced types. Some of the tests are pretty excessive. For a surge suppressor you need to provide 50 or more samples for testing, all of which will be destroyed. However its unlikely that a design problem affecting safety will be missed.

 

For small volume premium products this is rarely done. However at least conforming to the published standards makes a lot of sense. In the EU there is no way around the CE testing and local approval for power connected products, legitimately. Unfortunately CE testing means nothing in the US, or Japan or China etc.

 

Having UL approval won't wave off the lawsuit but not having it will give your insurance carrier a way to dump the lawsuit back on you (as a manufacturer).

 

Shunyata seems large enough to have a lot at stake. They should have some safety approvals you would think. You don't need a major fire for the price tag to be enormous. The smoke damage from a burning power cord could add up to a lot of money.

 

[monteverdi]

I could hear differences with different power cords not related to gauge, diameter or price. So I am open to find a rational explanation what defines the sound of power cords

I can not understand how the DTCD measurements from Shunyata are explaining anything. There is a comparison of different gauge wires but at 15 or 20 amps (when your fuse will prevent more currant to get to the amp) there is no obvious difference in the graphs. The pulse for a power supply is around 3 ms, but Shunyata measurements show differences in a few µs. Why should make 0.1% a significant difference for the power supply?

As a scientist I know one can measure a lot of parameters, the point is to find the measurements which lead to an explanation of what one wants to investigate.

 

[barrows]

I am talking about, specifically, UL, not European standards (CE etc)

 

There is no requirement for UL approval in the US. UL is not part of electrical codes. UL is a private enterprise, which operates for profit.

Now private insurers could certainly require UL approval as part of their contract with a home/business owner-but as part of a contract the consumer could also refuse to do business with an insurer which is throwing a bone to a for profit "regulatory" business.

 

As Demian notes, small manufacturers cannot afford to comply with UL standards, as the expense is too high for them.

 

Demian, I assume you are referencing, primarily, Monster: clearly a company which would be considered a high volume manufacturer compared to Shunyata, or any of the smaller power conditioner/cable companies (Synergistic, Audience, etc). I am curious now though, and will check if Shunyata UL lists any of their high end stuff.

 

[1audio]

You don't have to go to UL to get approval to the standards. There are several "recognized" laboratories that test to the same standards. UL is private but "not for profit" and the amateurish web site is consistent with not for profit. At least the standards were not written by bureaucrats protecting national turf. Many of the other standards are used to protect national "hero" manufacturers and keep "foreigners" out.

 

Understanding the standards is a good start on making safe products. Avoiding them without a good knowledge of them is not wise. You would not want to repeat the mistake that lead to the requirements.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark Powell]

I'm in the UK. We have 'The British Standards Institute', usually referred to as 'BSi'. This, like UL, is a private, for profit organisation. But, from its very name, its publications, and its behaviour, it does everything it can to give the impression that it is an official governmental establishment. An example - on its home page is has a link 'BRITISH STANDARDS online', which takes you to its own so-called standards. Does that not give *you* the impression that it is 'official'?

 

UL is rather more honest.

 

Our European CE testing is bureaucracy gone mad (not unusual in the EU). Almost all of it is mere self certification, yet it is compulsory if you want to sell anything, as you are legally not allowed to unless it is CE marked. Even an old fashioned, entirely passive 'crystal set' has to be CE marked.