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Mike Fremer visits Shunyata


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One last word on these cables, then I will shut up.

 

The graphs shown have a vertical scale of 300 amps. The actual currents appear to be 150 amps or so. A lower voltage drop is shown for the extremely thick Venom cable than a regular power lead, and much is made of this. The horizontal scale has to be short or the regular cable would melt. And in the real world it doesn't.

 

At these currents, of course the volt drop is lower with the thick cable. Totally unrealistic except, perhaps, at switch on if the amplifier uses a very large mains tranformer. Pure misdirection from Shunyata Research. No mention of other manufacturers and on topic.

 

 

 

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Honestly....

 

Use a cable of the required thickness for the max current capability of your house mains fuse- end of story. An amp cannot draw more than the mains can supply, so cable up accordingly and you'll never, ever have to worry. ( never mind the fact that the fuse on the end of the cable would blow its ass apart long before the wire limited current. At least here in the UK, 13 amp cable fuse is the legal max, while most mains incomer fuses will be 60-100amp)

 

If you are really paranoid use one piece of wire for every piece of hifi all the way back to the consumer unit.

 

And if you need mains filtration, make some. Don't F-about with wank wires from snake oil vendors, build up or buy in some active regulation for every single bit of kit that you have. but don't buy it from hifi vendors buy it from laboratory equipment suppliers.

 

 

and the one picture missing from the article - the pone that shows them co extruded insulation over copper drawn from their own dies. I assume they don't show this because like everyone else in the industry, apart from Nordost who do wrap their own, they buy in their bulk cable. Certainly the pictures they do show just show guys that stuff pre-made bulk wire into new outer braid and then into plastic tube.

 

17\"MB-Pro-Weiss 202-Muse 200- NS 1000M

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Apparently you did not read the article closely:

 

"One last word on these cables, then I will shut up.

 

The graphs shown have a vertical scale of 300 amps. The actual currents appear to be 150 amps or so. A lower voltage drop is shown for the extremely thick Venom cable than a regular power lead, and much is made of this. The horizontal scale has to be short or the regular cable would melt. And in the real world it doesn't.

 

At these currents, of course the volt drop is lower with the thick cable. Totally unrealistic except, perhaps, at switch on if the amplifier uses a very large mains tranformer. Pure misdirection from Shunyata Research. No mention of other manufacturers and on topic."

 

Re-read the article. The time interval is very short: it is the pulse time during which the capacitors draw their charge from the rectifiers/transformer. This only occurs at the peak of the (AC) waveform (only considering the top half of the cycle for simplicity). How much any of this matters (if at all) will be entirely dependent on the power supply design as well...

 

Additionally, consider the noise and resonance issues.

 

Note: I use an AC regenerator to power my DAC, the regenerator has the ability to change the output AC frequency-in relation to these measurements, think about why my DAC sounds better when the input AC frequency is raised from 60 to 90 HZ.

 

 

 

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 256-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical--Bricasti M3 DAC--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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I did a similar demo for Monster Cable many years ago. We used an HTS 3000 power center and cycled power to three large power amps turning them on and off every 5 minutes or so for the duration of a CES. The peak charging current for the three amps was about 150A for about 3 cycles of the 60 Hz power and then it dropped very quickly. This is a worst case scenario since the turn on charges completely empty caps. The amazing part was that the relay in the power center survived that treatment for the duration of the show (and the amps also survived).

 

In normal practice (except for some pro-sound amps) you will never see such high peak currents. Where you might see it a bigger benefit will be derived from converting to 220 power for the high current loads. Probably (including permits if required) lots cheaper than some of these power cords.

 

Shunata is wise to not claim they know why the different cords make a difference in what you hear. The peak voltage drop on the beginning of the transient in the test may be irrelevant if upstream, in series is an inductance (like the magnetic circuit breaker in the panel) limiting the peak current/time.

 

I have done a lot of measurements on power and looked at the peak currents and the effects of different cords. the networks are quite complex and really are hard to model correctly. I have demonstrated differences to hard core AES types who went into "does not compute" meltdowns, but didn't change their opinions on the lack of validity of different power cords.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Demian Martin

auraliti http://www.auraliti.com

Constellation Audio http://www.constellationaudio.com

NuForce http://www.nuforce.com

Monster Cable http://www.monstercable.com

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When one spends tens of thousand of dollars on their system, the laws of diminishing returns are then at work and cables, racks and conditioners are all very very important and cost is not a bar to deal with. When you are an audiophile at that level with cash to spare, it is not an issue.

There is no science behind the cable numbers and it seems that the Shunyata DTCD Analyser will help the manufacturer to make better cables,perhaps shorten the process and cost. This might actually help to level the playing field as the useless ones can be weeded out and generally acceptable raise is raised.

I am in the camp who believes in the quality of the cables and yet not willing to pay an exorbitant amount for our cables. I say this whilst I still foot the huge cost we pay to our snake oil Bankers and the likes.

 

Qnap NAS (LPS) >UA ETHER REGEN (BG7TBL Master Clock) > Grimm MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui /Meridian 808.3> Wavac EC300B >Tannoy Canterbury SE

 

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Yes, but...

 

The ability of a cable to support high instantaneous currents in the form of transients drawn by large amplifier power supplies with large capacitive input filters is an indication of high bandwidth transmission, is it not? To my way of thinking, that could actually be a *bad* thing.

 

I think the first real engineering based aspect of this is that none of it is as simple as Ohm's Law.

 

The second is that every amplifier has at least four inputs associated with it. (Exercise left to the reader...). None of these have ideal characteristics, which means that such annoyances as RF signals really can matter, even though they may be outside the usual audio band. What effect do you think there might be to the sound of an amplifier, whether power amp, preamp, output stage of a DAC, or what have you, when signals outside the audio band find their way into the system, through whatever means?

 

With regard to Shunyata, maybe it would be more enlightening to examine the patents they hold on some of their technology, rather than immediately dismissing their products. Those patents probably give more insight than a marketing spiel might. In that regard, ponder what effect an unconnected shield might have around a twisted cable pair such as might be found in a power cable.

 

Finally as Demian reminds us, it's quite likely that a lot of people have their minds made up on this and all sorts of other audio ideas. It probably doesn't make any sense to try to change that.

 

 

 

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Sorry, but another 'just one last'.

 

I admit I did not read more than a few paragraphs further than the graphs, but I did note his pulse and clipping comments. There are two cables in the picture, one with what appears to be a larger connector.

 

But the sight of this vast cable attached to the (by comparison) tiny connector tended to put me off.

 

I am not going to get into any 'The power station is tens/hundreds of miles away' argument. Your nearest utility company transformer is much closer, in my case less than a mile. In the UK the street supply is 230 volt three phase. Each house gets one phase. After three houses are done they start again. However -

 

Start with what we in the UK call the consumer unit. In my case it is about 40 ft away from my hifi. I did replace the regular 20 amp cable on our UK 'ring main' with a direct spur using 90 amp cooker installation cable. Made a noticeable improvement. Maybe less 'clipping' which the article mentions. Maybe because it allows me to safely eliminate one fuse. Maybe I don't know why it's better.

 

But even so it is much smaller in cross-sectional area than the Venom cable which it would supply, and much longer of course. So its volt drop will be much higher than that of the Venom cable. Could I not achieve the same result as the Venom by moving the hifi 3 or 4 ft closer to the consumer unit and shorten the cooker cable? Can't see that would make any difference though.

 

Or could I replace my four foot regular cable with three lengths of automobile starter motor cable, one each for live, neutral, and earth, and see the the Venom's 'improvement'? Again, I would expect no difference, because the long lenth of 90 amp cooker cable still remains.

 

In this append I am not being critical, but just asking questions.

 

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"In this append I am not being critical, but just asking questions."

 

OK... If you presume that the only thing that matters in this situation is the transmission of 50/60 Hz mains current, I would agree with you that this appears pretty straightforward.

 

But, if you accept that while 50/60 Hz transmission may only be the desired ideal case and does not represent the complexity of an interconnected system in the real world, then I'd suggest that the answer is equally complex. As Demian said, this is far from a simple problem to analyze. Explaining some of the subtleties in a web forum is probably just frustrating for any reader who happens by. (I take some responsibility for being complicit in this and won't post after this.)

 

Again, this is not an endorsement or condemnation of a Shunyata Venom cable. I've never even seen one.

 

 

 

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I take your point about patents may give more insight. But they do not demonstrate any form of 'goodness'.

 

In the UK you are allowed to patent almost anything except perpetual motion machines. In theory the patent has to be 'original' and an 'invention'.

 

This is often ignored. Organisations were, until recently, allowed to patent what are effectively 'measurements' involving DNA chains. My DNA is not original to the patentee, nor invented by them. If anything it was invented by my parents.

 

It's like me measuring ten amps on a meter and then patenting 'Ten Amps'.

 

But all this DNA patenting nonsense has now been stopped and all earlier patents on it thrown out.

 

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Mark Powell: I recall that Fremer brushed swords with the Randi Foundation not long ago, but bottled out when challenged. They would have a real laugh at these cables.

 

 

No you are wrong about that, it was Randi that bottled out.

 

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System (ii): Allo USB Signature > Bel Canto uLink+AQVOX psu > Chord Hugo > Tandy LX5/REL Tzero v3 subs

System (iii) KEF LS50W/KEF R400b subs

 

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So Demian, are you saying Power cords matter, and how so?

 

The networks are likely somewhat complex, but so are many other things.

 

What differences can you demonstrate, and how different do they filter out to the final output from power amps to the speakers?

 

Frankly, I doubt it is enough to matter if the power cord is adequately sized.

 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Mark PowellI searched some more. Who bottled out seems to depend on whos report you read

 

 

So given your position, it follows that you believe that Randi is a more authoritative source on speaker cables than Michael Fremer.

 

System (i): Stack Audio Link > 2Qute+MCRU psu; Gyrodec/SME V/Hana SL/EAT E-Glo Petit/Magnum Dynalab FT101A) > PrimaLuna Evo 100 amp > Klipsch RP-600M/REL T5x subs

System (ii): Allo USB Signature > Bel Canto uLink+AQVOX psu > Chord Hugo > Tandy LX5/REL Tzero v3 subs

System (iii) KEF LS50W/KEF R400b subs

 

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But there are some basic untruths in the Shunyata report that can clearly be demonstrated by anyone with an AC supply, a rectifier, and an oscilloscope, and Fremer has not picked them up. Though I accept that these untruths will not affect sound quality. Being untrue, they cannot have an effect either way.

 

Also, Fremer's observation that anyone who disagrees with him is a 'negative, know-nothing internet troller' shows clearly where he is coming from.

 

 

 

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Wow,

After Marks first comment I feared that this thread will go into this direction.

Maybe someone has more Information, which could help to understand the differences we hear with different PCs.

This thread is not entitled "do you believe that powercables make a difference?" rather "evidence for what we believe" and "interesting Information".

 

Stay on Track please.

 

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As Sri says, the report is just marketing claims. No evidence whatsoever.

 

Evidence - a railway journey in Scotland. A sheep is observed through the window.

Person 1 'I see that Scottish sheep are black'

Person 2 'No, some Scottish sheep are black'

Person 3 'You are both prejudging the issue. There is at least one sheep in Scotland and it is black on at least one side'

 

Nothing like that is in the report.

 

If we had to stick to what you said above then logically no one could have responded.

 

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So if I use black wool from a Scottish sheep it will help my audio system? Where do you put it, the source or speakers? Does breed of sheep or time of shearing influence things.

 

Sorry I thought this thread could use a little humor.

 

-Jeremy

 

Main / Office: Home built computer -> Roon Core (Tidal & FLAC) -> Wireless -> Matrix Audio Mini-i Pro 3 -> Dan Clark Audio AEON 2 Noire (On order)

Portable / Travel: iPhone 12 Pro Max -> ALAC or Tidal -> iFi Hip Dac -> Meze 99 Classics or Meze Rai Solo

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This thread is not entitled "do you believe that powercables make a difference?" rather "evidence for what we believe" and "interesting Information". Stay on Track please.

 

At issue is whether the "evidence for what we believe" is (a) accurate and (b) relevant.

 

Hence the thread is (a) still on track, and (b) on a trajectory that would be manifestly obvious to the OP (i.e, you) and anyone else at all familiar with how these discussions go. So you have to admit this post was a bit of a troll...

 

I for one am finding the debate, which has remained quite civilized, informative and mildly entertaining.

 

From the perspective of an experimental scientist, I think extraordinary claims (such as two power cables with the same inductance, capacitance and resistance are audibly distinguishable) require extraordinary proof. I have no idea what the answer is, but I would like to be convinced, one way or the other.

 

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Long haired wool is considered one of the best speaker stuffings, and the black will not be seen through the ports!

 

Forrest:

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DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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Commentary as below means nothing, if you make a comment like this, you will need to back it up:

 

"But there are some basic untruths in the Shunyata report that can clearly be demonstrated by anyone with an AC supply, a rectifier, and an oscilloscope, and Fremer has not picked them up."

 

Please point out the "basic untruths" specifically, without specifics your comment is meaningless.

 

And, Michael did not suggest that anyone who disagrees with him is an internet troll. He only suggested that folks who deny power cables make a difference in playback performance is an internet troll. I have seen a few folks on this forum who would qualify... For instance, anyone who claims power cables make no difference, and who base such claims on their "expertise" regarding the science of audio playback, and who has not actually auditioned some high end power cabling in an appropriate high end system, knows nothing of the reality of power cables effects on playback performance. I have little respect for those with no real experience who claim that power cables can make no difference. These folks would probably be better off to decline commenting on topics with which they have no direct experience.

 

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 256-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical--Bricasti M3 DAC--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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