Mike Fremer visits Shunyata

[Guest Claude]

Very interesting Info about measuring different powercords.

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm

Evidence for what we hear/believe.

Enjoy

Claudius

 

[Mark Powell]

I am a skeptic. Both on interconnects and even more so on powercords, though not for the 'We are a long way from the power station' reasons. My skepticism come more from so-called 'filtering' properties. I won't bore everyone with the details (though I am willing to if pushed).

 

'Difference' and 'improvement' come into my skepticism as well.

 

There is a consortium of Nordhost, Chord and Vertex-AQ who also claim to measure differences, and their charts do in fact show such differences. The differences their charts show are very very small. Other 'authorities' than me have said they cannot make any difference. Up to individuals whom to believe.

 

This consortium, in their literature, also claim 'military' experience.

 

My view is if this guy's cables are ten or twenty dollars each then he is probably honest, if misguided. If they are much higher he joins my list of snake oil merchants.

 

[Guest Claude]

It is well worth it.

Claude

 

[wgscott]

"This consortium, in their literature, also claim 'military' experience."

 

The same experience that comes from selling $500 hammers and $10K toilet seats to the Pentagon?

 

 

 

[CG]

Please consider this a push - I get bored every day at some point. I'd love to know the technical basis for your comments.

 

Note: I'm not advocating for or against the use of these products. Nor am I much interested in the commercial aspects, such as why the selling price may be above what might seem reasonable or desirable.

 

[Mark Powell]

I did read it (most of it, I did not get as far as seeing whether the price is quoted or not). It is interesting. That does not mean that I believe these cables make an improvement. Perhaps a difference.

 

A very long established company in the UK, Russ Andrews, was making pseudo-technical claims for his power cables (50 to 1000 dollars each). Until our 'Advertising Standards Authority' put a stop to it.

 

[Mark Powell]

We have done this stuff on other fora recently, so I will be brief.

 

Most, though not all, hi-end cable manufacturers do not make their own cable. They buy it at 10 dollars a reel from 'Asia Inc'. Some may even pay another dollar to have their names printed on it. And a further dollar to have it colored purple.

 

RFI reduction. Many claim RFI reduction. Of course we all know that respected companies such as McIntosh, Krell, Audio Research and so on do nothing whatsoever to screen out miscellaneous junk in their power supplies, dont we?

 

A Britiush company claims its 800 dollar power cable 'Synchronises the mains supply'. What is that supposed to mean? (It has a lump made of wood halfway along.)

 

I could go on....

 

[CG]

Actually, virtually *all* the audio manufacturers you cite do *not* do anything whatsoever to screen out miscellaneous junk in their power supplies, marketing claims notwithstanding. Don't believe me? Look at the circuit diagrams for yourself. There are exceptions, of course, but not many.

 

I'm not going to defend the range of claims made by the cable vendors. Most were made up in some marketing strategy session, not in a laboratory or in some simulation exercise. But, just as with other products (and people!) just because the resume is embellished, that doesn't make the product necessarily bad.

 

With regard to the raw cable price, I think you need to check out the price of cable from suppliers these days, whether in Asia or not. Copper ain't so cheap these days. By a long shot.

 

Whether a cable is worth $800 is a question up to the buyer, is it not? A lot goes into the pricing of any product, and it's not entirely related to the raw material costs by any means. If someone finds that it sounds better to his/her taste, that is their business.

 

Full disclosure: I have no connection with any audio or cable company. In fact, I barely even buy their products, usually building my own. But, as part of that building my own thing, I have found that different cables do sound different and some do sound better. Whenever I dig into the technical reasons why that may be, I've usually found something that can be measured or is at least a little obvious after the fact - I hate that.

 

But, if you think it's all male bovine excrement, I'm good with that.

 

[barrows]

You continue to make off topic comments, which do not apply to the company in question:

 

"Most, though not all, hi-end cable manufacturers do not make their own cable. They buy it at 10 dollars a reel from 'Asia Inc'. Some may even pay another dollar to have their names printed on it. And a further dollar to have it colored purple."

 

Cleary, Shunyata does not use off the "reel" wire from Asia, so why add this comment to a thread which regards Shunyata specifically? This approach to discourse is obfuscation (is that the right word?)

Just because some companies may operate the way that you claim is not a reason to critisize what Shunyata does.

Just like your comments regarding DACs, where you claimed manufacturers all just throw some chips designed by someone else in a box and call it good was innaccurate, so are your comments here in regards to Shunyata.

Skepticism is fine, but ill-informed dismissal of the engineering efforts of others is just ignorant.

 

 

 

[Mark Powell]

If you, or anyone else, I am not being personal to you, have enough disposable income to spend what I think are crazy sums on short lengths of wire that's fine by me.

 

I spend very large sums on flying light aircraft (and owning a quarter share). Models too, sometimes costing ten thousand totally uninsurable dollars. Many would think that is crazy.

 

But at least the aviation authorities require us by law to purchase a 50 doller bolt rather than a one dollar one. Because it comes with X-ray, crack testing, traceable material origin, and so on. No snake oil there.

 

Showing a well known columnist who is probably well paid for his articles around your fancy factory is all part of the advertising, and the 'mystique'.

 

[Mark Powell]

Glad you told me that about power supplies. I was going to spend quite a lot this week on an amp from one of those suppliers. The respect in which I held them was obviously misplaced.

 

[barrows]

"If you, or anyone else, I am not being personal to you, have enough disposable income to spend what I think are crazy sums on short lengths of wire that's fine by me."

 

I have very little income right now, and I build all my own power cables-still, even building my own with good parts costs quite a bit, and requires a good deal of time to do it right. The (improved) results are clearly audible in comparison to the standard OE 14 AWG, shielded power cable included with most gear (as well as compared to some fairly expensive commercial offerings). Analog signal cables, yes, I have spent money on them, because nothing I can build can come close at all to what I already have, I've tried.

 

"I spend very large sums on flying light aircraft (and owning a quarter share). Models too, sometimes costing ten thousand totally uninsurable dollars. Many would think that is crazy."

 

Hey, nothing wrong with that, most people spend way too much energy worrying about what others do!

 

"But at least the aviation authorities require us by law to purchase a 50 doller bolt rather than a one dollar one. Because it comes with X-ray, crack testing, traceable material origin, and so on. No snake oil there."

 

Huh? Are you suggesting that the US government should waste their time and money verifying every marketing claim made for every consumer product sold in the US? if not, then the above comment makes 0 sense and is not relevant.

Read the article! It is about MEASURED properties of power cables/power conditioners, not "snake oil".

 

 

 

[CG]

Great points!

 

Just how much of the cost of that bolt do you think is due to the supplier needing to pay for various liability considerations, such as training, bonds, insurance, and so on? I think you are bring ripped off! You are either crazy or stupid! All that money just to burn up some fuel and waste time?

 

Look, I'm not going to defend any company's marketing schemes. They are a necessary evil to do business in the 21st century, it seems.

 

To me, that does not negate the usefulness of a product. It also doesn't guaranty its usefulness, either. Whether you, or I, feel we can or want to spend that money is something separate.

 

A lot of people, including my late mother, are pretty interested in art. When you consider that they are just a couple of bucks of paint on some low cost canvas of some kind, it's horrible. How can people even consider asking the price they do? Heck, the frame is worth more in terms of manufacturing cost.

 

[Kimo]

according to the article, Shunyata can now provide measurements with their own equipment to show that all cables, or connectors, for that matter, do not deliver the same.

 

Assuming this is all true, does this mean that many cables cannot deliver what most power supplies need? I guess the last 3' typically are acting like a choke between the power supply and the power?

 

[CG]

OK, just why are you willing to spend a lot of money on an amplifier? I can tell you that aside from the metal work, which is mostly for show, the costs aren't really that high. Development cost? Can't be that much and why should have to pay for it? Many of the components within come from Asia, too, so they just can't cost very much.

 

Anyway, the fact is that these amps do not have lots of rejection against EMI and RFI coming in via the AC line. That includes both differential and common mode noise generated by any digital devices in your household, especially those physically close to your amplifier. Even the solid state diodes used in most power supplies generate lots of switching noise when they rectify the supplied AC. (not true for vacuum tube rectifiers) About the only isolation is from whatever there might due to the characteristics of the power transformer. And that isn't much at high frequencies. Again, if you don't want to believe me, that's fine, but again I bet that a examination of the circuit diagram will prove otherwise.

 

This may not be any problem at all in your home environment. Sadly, not everyone is that fortunate. It may even be a problem for you, but the overall sound you get might be to your liking. That is presumably the reason why you'd be considering the purchase. Or it just may not matter to you.

 

[Mark Powell]

I have made cables. I recently laid a dedicated spur from the house 'consumer' unit to the hifi rack to bypass the UK 'ring main' system. An improvement was heard. Not just a difference.

 

I use a soldered-on industrial quality multi socketed panel. Recently I took that apart and soldered up all the internal connections. No noticeable change.

 

I pull out the power plugs periodically and abrade the pins until clean and shiny. Definite improvement, but very short-lived. Harder to do the sockets of course.

 

Increase in the cost of copper has been mentioned. That applies equally to a 'dime store' power lead. Amount of copper does not explain the difference between 10 dollars and several hundred.

 

Filters have been mentioned. No matter how 'high quality' or expensive the cable is, unless an actual filter has been incorporated in the cable the filtering effect is very small (I believe).

 

Naim audio state clearly in their manuals "Do not use filters or special cables to connect our components. Such devices degrade both the mains electricity supply and the sound". Of course I accept that Naim is not the 'final authority'.

 

The tests by the consortium I mentioned does show differences, and I do not think they are in any way falsified. But has anyone done the same test on a 'regular' cable, then bent it around a little, as it might well be when installed, and tested it again? I suspect the results will show differences of equal or greater magnitude.

 

What anyone considers 'expensive' is presumably determined by their disposable income.

 

But when a mere cable can sometimes cost as much or more than a well respected, complicated, powerful, and large and weighty amplifier I become very cynical.

 

 

 

[Mark Powell]

1) I can afford it.

 

2) I consider my present power amplifier to be the weak point in my system. Financially I very much hope that I will be proved to be correct!

 

3) I already stated that what you said about these amplifiers has caused two of them to be struck off my list.

 

3) Two of them are valve amplifiers. Such are very simple things. I believe much of the difference between a good one and an inferior one is down to the quality of the output transformers. Compared to the selling price of the amplifier the cost of a well designed transformer is not much different from the cost of a badly designed one. And unless you use silver (on which there is some dispute about the sound quality) the material cost difference it not high either.

 

Will that do? I have not thought of everything!

 

[Mark Powell]

I know you are taking the mickey, but in aircraft we are not allowed a choice. If I use a dime store bolt it will be picked up on the next Aviation Authority inspection (possibly), the aircraft will be grounded and I will be in jail.

 

With hifi cables we have a choice. And I assume that someone who is clever enough to have made enough money to afford some of these cables is clever enough not to fall for the psuedo-scientific mumbo-jumbo that surrounds some of them.

 

[Mark Powell]

I read Fremer's article more closely.

 

The cable manufacturer says his cables are capable of a superior 'instant current delivery' than regulat cables. Fine, no argument with that.

 

But how does that help when the cable from my 'consumer unit' to my wall socket is regular electricity utility company cable?

 

And the internals of the consumer unit, which is deliberately sealed and thus inaccessible to me, is also composed of regular components?

 

[cjf]

Great Article, thanks for posting the link. I always wondered what the big Shunyata cables looked like under the skin in a real picture and not some drawing. I was certainly not brave enough to cut my own Pythons open to find out.

 

[CG]

I often think that some manufacturers, of anything, not just audio gear, tend to over hype to the point of silliness what their products do.

 

In some cases, it may be to impress the potential customer with the hopes of differentiating the product enough to make a sale.

 

In other cases, it may be to mislead the competition.

 

Or, they could just not know and are making stuff up because they really don't know how their experimentally derived product actually works.

 

Some vendors admit the latter and just suggesting trying for yourself. Not unreasonable, to my view.

 

Also... I don't know if you are an electrical engineer or not, but if you are, I suggest for an interesting exercise drawing as complete a mesh diagram of your system as you can. Then examine the possible currents. Remember that, per your own observation, there's really no frequency limiting anywhere in the connections.

 

[CG]

Oh - one more point.

 

I'd really like an explanation from one of these guys just why instant current delivery is a good thing.

 

Personally, I think that may miss the point. But, I admit not to being in the audio business...

 

[Mark Powell]

Yeah! I looked closely at the charts. Mr Snake Oil says the vertical scale is 300 amps. Our mains voltage is 240 approx. The amplifier power rails are 40 or so. So his Venom cable (appropriate name I thought) can supply 1800 amps across the speakers. Admittedly not continuous.

 

He might fool Fremer, but he does not fool us 'know-nothing internet trollers'.

 

[Mark Powell]

I recall that Fremer brushed swords with the Randi Foundation not long ago, but bottled out when challenged. They would have a real laugh at these cables.

 

[Jsmith]

Thanks for the article I found it an interesting read. My dealers carries Shunyta and told me I can take some home to demo whenever I want.

 

Once i get over the pain of my current purchase I will defiantly try some out.