Async-USB 24/768 Phasure NOS1 DAC

[esimms86]

I honestly feel bad for poor Mani. His thread has been hijacked beyond repair. His review, when it comes, will have to appear in a new thread. Likewise, I feel bad for Peter St whose DAC has been obscured by all of this identity talk. I for one have read posts in this thread for the last time. If I were Chris Connaker I'd close it out.

 

Esau

 

[PeterSt]

No one should feel bad for me. At least I read all the posts with interest, and maybe they represent real life development. But maybe one must be into that first in order to see the contexts, and how wrong the ideas of some can be. It may be better than not hearing about those views at all.

Also, for me there is nothing like an explicit commercial act involved, which also should not be (in here) anyway. As long as the truth is not too much violated.

 

What *is* important though, in general and for me, is that this implicitly involves people like Esau, who, like almost everyone, goes for trust only. I made a remark about this earlier in this thread. Cynic's posts counteract that and with a flair like he really knows. But this is over and done with, because he prooved to know nothing. His twist went into components to be parts, and might the interpretation of this be that nobody should buy any device without self designed chips being all over (like the Pasific Microsonics would be an example of that), well, go ahead.

Whether he means that a PCB costs $30 without "components" (which really would be $5 for a 4 layer board) or whether he thinks that this includes the parts - in any case again it doesn't make sense (one PCM1704U-K already costing $40).

Ah, maybe it was about the soldering only.

 

Btw, it may be good to tell from my hand that Mani did not want to put out any review before I fully finished all the software stuff involved for Windows. On that matter, I don't think this thread was meant to be a review or something. Merely an enthusiastic anouncement. Finishing that software may take a few days more. Yes, the longer I post, the longer it takes. ^

 

Peter

 

[PeterSt]

Maybe to Eloise, if still necessary;

 

The two alinea's Chris quoted about the attenuation, is 100% exactly what my idea about this is. Well, the first one at least. This is not some confirmation afterwards, but about my ever attempting to get in any means of attenuation, which FAILED. Read the first alinea for the why and what has been tried, although for a DAC there are some more possibilities to do it.

 

The second alinea - I want to see it happening. So, despite the outlay in the first, it doesn't proove at all that now all is 100% OK. It should be better, but not sonically influencing ?

 

Only voltage controlled attenuation has a good chance ...

(which I can not apply because of the D/A chips not allowing for that).

 

Regards,

Peter

 

PS: I now see that it seems I drifted off. But what I wanted to say is : for me this for very sure prooves how important Chris's implied reference was. It is THE very most important subject when it is about good audio ... really.

 

[PeterSt]

Despite all what has been said about it, maybe it is useful to look into some insights of how things really go. About off the shelf stuff and what to outsource and things ...

Here too, things are not as they seem.

 

For me, foremost is response "speed" combined with sales price. The latter is about anything feaseable for maybe just above Joe, but if Joe can be in there it would even be better. This goes virtually over my own back (this may be too much dutch), and makes it technically a "DIY" project for this reason alone. It means making use of resources as how they are availably there, where possible.

 

Response speed is merely about the independancy of everything and all which lengthens this. It could be about (outsourced !) trial productions with the possibility to fail. It is also about the (for me) ever lasting right to the end wanting to make changes, when needed. No real outsourcing will be able to cope with that. It is 6 weeks here and 6 weeks there, and having a real life working product (at the PCB level) would set all back 12 weeks minus a few days.

... to next discover that it must change afterall.

 

There must have been a 2 dozen occurrences that I decided to not outsource PCB soldering. In one occasion I really grabbed the phone to make appointments with a company I had been preparing things with before, and then they appeared to be broke. So, again not.

But also my stock could have been in there; it just would have taken to make that call 2 weeks earlier, and bring over the parts. Depending on the amount (the more the lower the cost) it would have costed a couple of cars.

All I want to say, these things happen too, and while these things *will* happen at some stage, they again have to be incorporated in the sales price.

 

I source all the parts (components) myself, and if I had left that for the soldering company (which is fairly normal procedure) there wouldn't have been one single NOS1 around. It would have meant that no D/A chips could have been obtained. Just an example, and no different from what Demian has been talking about.

The world, these days, is full of "no stock", that being the result of the economic situation. This means looking for other sources (WW) or replacements. I think it is obvious that only the designer can do that.

 

The result of the latter fact is that huge difficulties can be expected when your parts have to be mounted on the robot machines etc. "Sorry, I could not obtain a reel" is not in order.

 

If I need to change something today, I will apply that litterally today. Not in six weeks because I will be in a planning queue somewhere. That it is the result that now we're soldering ourselves, and which sure is way more expensive, makes me happy in the end, because I can respond to anything I want.

Even then mistakes can be made, like the other day (this is only from 5 weeks back) we found we could improve the output stage, while all PCBs for that were readily soldered and nicely on stock. But, no empty PCB's left. Being on a time schedule already, this would have implied waiting for a new batch, and at least one week would have been lost. In our case though, we could unsolder the ready PCBs and change what we needed. One day respone for a first DAC to go out regarding this.

 

Maybe this is enough to indicate how "production" can be setup differently, if only some "DIY" mind is present. This is not normal of course. But before people think this is bad means of behavior, we better wonder how the sales price can be that "low" if all is really so wrongly setup. I do admit that none of the "research" is incorporated in the price, which is super-siginificant. This too radiates "DIY".

 

Where DIY stops, is when you want to cut down on the price and buy by the thousands. When a "real" case needs to be there (I have still bad dreams about that), and when deadlines need to be met. When the product needs to be decent. When it's ought to work everywhere.

This is all fairly normal. But now we're also operating in realms of the "never been done before". This makes it exponentially more difficult, and also another reason this can't be any normal production.

 

Others may have completely different views. This is just mine !

Peter

 

[Audio_ELF]

Peter; I hope this post comes across in the way i intend it...

 

At what point does a company stop being DIY?

 

Is Naim a DIY company because the majority of their components are built in house by people? Would the Phasure NOS1 (joke: shouldnt the USB version be NOS2?) be less DIY if Peter got 1000 units assembled in China? Maybe it's about the development and there are swings and round abouts in both large development teams and one man bands.

 

As people have said, what's most important is how it soundthonged er for most people it's appearance will have a secondary effect. With respect to Peter, however good it sounds without a professional fit/finish and appearance you'll never get the product mainstream, so yes I would agree that currently it's more an interesting prototype; but (unlike I feel AudioCynic is implying) that doesn't take anything away from your achievements.

 

Eloise

 

[Audio_ELF]

I will start off by saying that I really gave no knowledge of who Spectral is even by reputation... However much of your quote reads like marketing blurb...

 

To quote (possibly but hopefully not, out of context) a small portion... Most of today’s high-end preamps incorporate various digital and IC based attenuator systems to control gain, while a minority still use mechanical controls, potentiometers, switches or relay arrays.

 

That sentence (to me) if full of half truths and bordering on fear mongering (if you have any pre-amp but ours it will use a cheap sound damaging volume IC). To say the majority of "high end" pre amps use digital or IC volume controls is (to my experience) wrong. You don't need to get very high end to avoid a volume IC and who to believe: Spectral that analogue volume is better or the competitors who promote eliminating the pre-amp and using digital volume.

 

Now no doubt Spectral have worked hard to produce what they consider the "ultimate" volume control including working with aerospace companies; but why the need to enhance their claims by putting down every other pre-amp. THAT is pure marketing.

 

I'm sure this post isn't going to win me any favours, but any mention of how a competitor does things - whether general or specific - stinks of marketing to me. This isn't however, about Spectral specifically as most companies are guilty of the same.

 

Eloise

 

[PeterSt]

Or Elf 's in space. Doesn't matter, and the title only tries to be a funny follow up.

 

No. I can only 100% agree with that first alinea. The luck I have is that I did *not* come up with anything that works, or otherwise what would have been different in the judgement department.

 

Also, I see it as a summ up of all the various means existing. Okay, no LDR there.

 

Because Spectral tells about it similarly compared to how I would (and have done btw), it can't be a commercial thing in *my* view. What is dangerous though, is that from this does not follow the right way (to do it) at all.

 

But isn't this how all manuals etc. are to be read ? If it's not mentioned, it won't be in it.

In this case it should be supported by graphs. Noise plots especially (maybe it is on the original page, I don't know).

 

What remains for me, is not much whether this is marketing talk or not (who actually cares), but that it is the most important within audio. Ah, I already said that. Yes, but who believes it ? you ??

Because I say so ? ... of course not. And you (or anyone) shouldn't. I certainly would not (like I told about that second alinea).

 

But therefore what I wrote today in the other thread (addressed to Barrows) is of more importance (hopefully). If we really get what it is about in there, we may start to be able to reason out ourselves that it all isn't so easy as (for example !) preamp vs. without. Which is about this attenuation for now, in here. No no, let's now start the debate about *that* for the 100th time, but it should tell us that this is not a simple "see, without it souds worse, and *thus* it needs to be in".

 

Right, drifting off once again (sorry !), but I can't emphasize enough how difficult audio really is, which indeed is related to falling into marketing traps. Trying it out is a solution - for most the only one. Understanding it all is far more fruitful though but a most difficult job. It may take more Elfs in space while only one exists really. You know ...

 

Regards,

Peter

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

Sorry Peter, but you lost me with "I can only 100% agree with that first alinea." what is "alinea"? Other than a very good restaurant in Chicago according to Google.

 

You say "Because Spectral tells about it similarly compared to how I would (and have done btw)" but I though (I maybe wrong) the NOS1 relies on the digital volume control in XXHighEnd (or whatever application used)?

 

My point about "marketing" vs "information" is statements which basically put down te competitors products. To be clear that "marketing" comments are nothing to do with you / Phasure (is Phasure the company name now?) it is just how te thread developed (Chris suggested Spectral was open non-marketing company yet to me Chris quote contained large abouts of marketing FUD).

 

Eloise

 

[koogook]

Hi peter

 

I thought i would ask directly if it would lead to a sale, i thought you might not mind?

 

I have apple with Osx, but if at a push needed pc could do this. What are my limitations or compromise if i dont use xxhighend but pure music to run the nos1, is it possible, if you would be so kind?

 

payment for nos1, i would be going direct into power amp, but would you consider anything is needed before the nos1 like off ramp4?

 

Is there anything else that you might help me draw more to your product (optional), i know your busy but thought rather then ither people questioning this that about your setup or marketing, a question for a possible sale would set us back on track?

 

thank you for your time, handcrafted personal one to one companies i support all the way and have no problem paying the money for. Thanks again.

 

oh does it double up as a rc helicopter landing zone, or should i lock the door on my audio room from my 3 yr old son?

 

[Miska]

The term "off the shelf components" always refer to the electronic components that are mounted on a pcb. Manufacturing printed circuit boards is a highly automated standardized commodity low value added part of most electronics products.

 

Why such amount of noise about small detail of manufacturing PCB, by the way is that with or without components? As a side note I personally value "hand made" over "robot made".

 

Components alone don't make a device. What about discrete DAC running out of MCU and FPGA with in-house software? Both MCU and FPGA are completely dummy silicon without software. Who would be manufacturer in this kind of case in your books?

 

What is much more important than PCB manufacturing detail is the schematic and layout design. You can get PCB layout easy&fast (cheap) with somewhat random component placement and auto-routing, but the result would be far from optimal. Creating top-class performance electronics requires top-class schematic and layout. Both take a lot of R&D time.

 

And then comes the components, for example for my current "DAC", just the BOM is more than most audiophile gear's retail price. For small volumes, BOM + R&D time can be quite challenging for small production volumes. Things like 0.1% resistors and 1% capacitors are expensive, regardless of production volumes. (I don't even own auto-router license, I consider those useless)

 

 

[PeterSt]

Eloise, I am sorry about "Alinea". I thought this was just english. But apparently it isn't at all. I tried to look it up, but the translations I find don't fit much. Paragraph it should be, but in my "book" this is something else.

 

While the above is the first "paragraph" or "alinea", this now is the second ...

 

And this is the third. Please enlighten me !

 

You say "Because Spectral tells about it similarly compared to how I would (and have done btw)" but I though (I maybe wrong) the NOS1 relies on the digital volume control in XXHighEnd (or whatever application used)?

 

Exactly ! But this is because there was no way to create an analogue volume in the DAC. Not one that would degrade sound.

I hope it is clear now !

 

Thanks much for pointing out the alinea thing.

Peter (being in the 6th so-called paragraph now)

 

[PeterSt]

I think the subject is behind us, but you just mentioned a couple of those 20 subjects I had on my list as being the opposite from suggested.

 

And for your interest (I think I know you'll like such a thing), the FPGA is now dynamically loaded at the user's site.

A lot can be optimized in there too (or timings), and what I don't or can't think of today, I may tomorrow ...

 

Thanks,

Peter

 

[PeterSt]

Thank you very much for the heads up. But as I said earlier, I don't think it can harm when people can see through some "real life" somewhat better.

 

It may not be the best idea to use this as a "sales" thread, nor any other thread. Chris may not reject it, but I don't feel comfortable with it myself. Only if it adds to general knowledge maybe, or whatever it is I sometime (or always) want to express about. Even then posts may be deleted, so it's always a bit of wrinkling my mind how to say things.

 

Although this post still might be deleted (as it is Chris's right to just do that), I will try to make an exception. At least I don't see why *you* don't deserve that.

 

I have been asked to examine Pure Music, but did not thus far. I will though and let everybody know.

 

It is somewhat tough to explain the differences with XXHighEnd in general, unless we talk plain numbers. But let those not be important. Sound is.

The main important difference will be about the in my opinion best filtering which is dedicated to XXHE (I can't help that much at this moment). Although it is my preferred choice (and that of 99,99% of not-NOS1 XXHE users - by nature), this has sonical upsides (1:1 impulse response with no pre- and post ringing), and theoretical downsides (false energy beyond the audio band). Please mind my wording in the previous sentence, because that is exactly how it is.

 

Under Windows there's the alternative of HQPlayer (from Miska).

Under OSX there's the various filtering means presented by the by now numerous playback software. Here, I'd say Apple is in the advantage, just because of more choices, and because this does not need to be about stupid upsampling (which I dedicate to Windows players, but mind my remark about HQPlayer which is in a different leage).

 

The higher the "upsampling" (read : the further away and lower the beyond audio band energy will be), the better it is. This is important for the 1:1 impulse response, but in the end also for the common filtering means. Playing via XXHE allows for 768 (which integrates with the in-DAC software) while any other Windows player will have to do with 384. For the Mac this limits to 192 at this moment, but that most probably will change to 384.

 

We can also approach this from the angle that anything which leaves energy beyond the audio band is wrong. In that case the Mac will do 100% fine in all cases. But, it seriously needs my advice on what actual filter to use, or otherwise you just as well can buy any DAC.

(my advice because it needs measurement).

 

Re anything needed in front of the NOS1 : No, nothing. The clocking in the NOS1 should be the best there is. Net jitter should be better than 0.5ps, although this is a number again.

Connection is direct i2s after the USB receiver chip (where jitter as such is not in order yet).

 

Is there anything else that you might help me draw more to your product (optional)

 

If I keep on writing - yes. But I think this is not appropriate for in here, no matter your good intentions.

 

About your 3 year old son : here's a measure not commonly known;

A bit depending on the "dancing capabilities" of children (but many have it inherently) ... when sound is right they get wild on dancing. It is similar to your whistling which will go automatically. When things are wrong or not as good, that dancing will not be there ...

Also, many husbands often have trouble in justifying their new toy; wives are often not into this rubbish. But now watch all those wives who suddenly and explicitly approve this one purchase ... It happens all the time, and you could well say that it is this what I really do it for.

 

I hope this suffices for in here. Thanks,

Peter

 

 

[koogook]

Thanks of course i understand.

 

you have answered more then what i could have hoped for.

 

Thank you keep up the good work.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

No worries Peter. When a CA reader asks a specific question to a "manufacturer" I encourage detailed responses.

 

 

 

[koogook]

hi Chris

 

i know you have been asked this before but a review, especially in comparison the c.a.s.h. list,and also the intricate coupling of pc or mac, would be very greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks both for your expertise in thos subject.

 

 

 

[Guest Claude]

Can,t wait. Should be here next Monday.

I am still figuring out on how to "drive" the nos1.

Mani,

What kind of pc are you using?

I want to start with my Mac. See the thread below.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/mini-running-w7-boot-camp-experiences-or-alternatives

Claudius

 

[driven -- by sound]

Indeed Claude, very exciting! I'm hoping for a couple of things next week. That you'll have time to sit down and play with it. And that you'll return some photographs to compliment your initial impressions.

 

Cheers!

 

[manisandher]

Hi Claude,

 

Congratulations on the NOS1. And welcome to the new world of truly high-end digital sound!

 

I have XXHighEnd loaded on the following 3 totally silent PCs:

1) i7-860, Gigabyte mini-ATX mobo, Seasonic X460 PS, SoTM tx-USB board, Zalman TNN300 case, 8GB RAM, 90GB SSD (with SoTM SATA), 3TB HDD (spins down)

2) E8600, Gigabyte mini-ATX mobo, Seasonic X460 PS, Zalman TNN300 case, 8GB RAM, 90GB SSD, 3TB HDD (spins down)

3) CAPS v2, 60W linear PS, 120GB SSD, 2TB HDD (spins down)

 

1) and 2) work just great with XXHighEnd. 3) is a lot slower and struggles with gapless playback. But my preference is actually 3), because after a lot of listening/comparing I prefer the sound when no SMPSs at all are present in my system.

 

BUT... please don't follow my lead here - I'm overly anal about having totally silent PCs in my living/work environment, which for most people simply aren't required.

 

BTW, there is a great thread up on the Phasure forum that I would strongly recommend anyone who is contemplating building a PC read: http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1880.msg19223;topicseen#msg19223

 

Mani.

 

[Guest Claude]

“ I'm overly anal about having totally silent PCs in my living/work environment,“

LOL. Didn't think you say that in English the same way we (or at least some) Germans do.

Guess I am one of these guys as well. My wife would say so for sure. You do not happen to be a psychiatrist? ;-)?

 

What do you mean by “spins down"? Does the HD spin down, when not in use or ... ?

 

Thanks for the link. I think I have to delve deeper into the phase-universe. I read, that you sold your "old" dac. Still can't believe you sold it. There are so many rumors about it and some people even lower their voices when talking about the Model Two. ;-)

 

Is there any way to improve the speed of the CAPS 2.0? (Probably have to go into the thread about the CAPS 2 and the thread on phasure.com)

 

I will report back on how it goes along. Sadly I will be out of town next week (Tue to Fri). So hopefully I get the unit up and running on monday so I can put on it some music, while I am gone (burn in).

Best from Berlin Germany

Claudius

 

 

[PeterSt]

Claude, two things :

 

- The disks spin down because XXHighEnd is made like that.

 

- You may have settled for having the upcoming weekend to think things over, but don't be angry when you have it Friday already (this just could happen).

 

Grüssen,

Peter

 

[Guest Claude]

Gosh,

I think I need someone to tell me what to do. I am this excited. ;-)

Thanks a lot Peter.

Good to see that you are learning German (it is without n just Grüsse)

You might need it after I start my guerrilla marketing for your products.

Besten Grüsse (or is it without “n"?) Remember your German Course? ;-)

Jokes aside. I am really looking forward. Thanks for your effort!

Claudius

 

 

 

[Guest Claude]

Today I received my NOS1 and just put it on my rack.

I will still have to do some setup (Win7) and start setting up the NOS1.

Claudius

 

[Guest Claude]

But right now I am listening with audirvana with 24/384 in integer mode (10.6 SL).

Claudius

 

[Guest Claude]

My Bootcamp is not new enough to install WIN7 and I have found no way to update to a newer version.

So I tried to use my Macbook Air with the result, that my startupdisk is corrupted and I can no longer start the computer.

Right now I am not in the mood to listen to music.

I guess this will become a longer story, before I can listen to xxhighend.

Claude