PS Audio Bridge

[Priaptor]

I haven't seen many discussions about this incredible sounding product. I have had the opportunity to use some USB DACs in my system, especially in the earlier days of the Bridge but haven't found one that I can state has blown me over or has a richer sound than the PS Audio.

 

These weekend, I once again tried, ARC's DAC8 (after having read some of the great reviews on this forum) and while a very detailed DAC, it lacks the full rich sound of the PSA, lacks the transparency of the PSA and sounds a little harsh, only in relative terms to the PSA. I used both Pure Music through USB as well as my PWT through XLR and still came out liking the PSA-main reason for trying it is that it is being offered me at a price very difficult to refuse, had I liked it.

 

I am always on the "hunt" and some of the DACS out there have me interested, such as the Debussy (which unfortunately cannot play high res via the PWT), the new Meitner, new Roland and Weiss 202, the latter a long distance friend of mine has as well as a PWD/Bridge and feels the Bridge to be "20 better", whatever that means.

 

Just curious if anyone has had a chance to compare some of other DACs to the Bridge as there seems to be a lack of info on this site and for whatever reason, PSA hasn't given the unit to anyone for a mainstream review.

 

PWT/PWD/Bridge->ARC REF 5->McIntosh MC2301 Monoblocks->Nola Baby Grands

 

[DavidL]

I assume that you know that Hi Fi News reviewed the PWT / PWD pair in August 2009 issue, as you are a regular contributor to this forum?

http://www.psaudio.com/ps/forum/viewthread/291/

 

As regards DACs to equal or better the PWD, have you seen the thread here:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Bel-Canto-DAC-35

 

David

 

 

[ziggyzack]

for whatever reason, PSA hasn't given the unit to anyone for a mainstream review.

 

Because by all accounts, it doesn't work properly - people talking about the lemon law on their forum.

 

[apple2k]

I also have a Perfectwave DAC and think it is brilliant, the sound is incredibly analog like. The background is absolutely black and the bass is extremely well defined. It sounds like music, can't say much more than that.

 

I also have a Bridge, and that is another story. I found it to be extremely hard to set up and especially control with eLyric, the PS Audio app for iPhone. It also seemingly won't stream music via a standard wireless router, you need another device, a Ethernet Bridge, NOT just the PS Audio Bridge, to get wireless music.

 

I eventually used an ethernet cable to get the Bridge working, then became so frustrated with eLyric that I re-connected my Squeezebox and use that as a controller to send a S/PDIF into the DAC.

 

It still sounds amazing, I suspect PS Audio needs more time to refine the software for the Bridge & the controller so am holding onto mine knowing they'll fix it.

 

I had a DL3 from them before, which I also found quite good, but the Perfectwave DAC is in a totally different league.

 

[alphonse]

I also have a PWD and it sounds great! I am using it as a DAC/Preamp streaming music via ethernet from an iMAC, Airport Extreme, Apple TV2. I have purposely held off on the bridge card because of the issues that owners are having. I have been following the PS Audio forums regularly. Hopefully they can work out the bugs. If not I will look at other options. I am actually quite surprised at how good the ATV2 sounds, despite claims that it is not audiophile level quality because it has a noisy switching power supply and is not bit perfect. And the Remote App on an iPad works great.

 

Al

 

[sr1329]

I had one and returned it. It sounded pretty darn good. But the killer feature is supposed to be that bridge that allows ethernet->I2S->DAC. But I saw the writing on the wall with their obviously hopeless attempts to make a user friendly product. First of all as much as it sounds good that touch screen screams "gimmick". The remote does not work at an angle. Then I tried that iPhone app and realized that this is hopeless. These guys don't have the first clue on designing a user interface or any software. Given that the bridge will work only with their clunky software it was a lost cause in my eyes.

 

IMHO nobody can touch iTunes remote or Squeezebox as an interface and of the two Squeezebox still has issues but it gives you control that iTunes never in a million years could. Those two systems are the only ones I know that will let you manage and control a library of tens of thousands of songs without making you wish you could go back to the days of changing silver discs. IMHO the whole point of computer audio is convenience beyond the fact that greater sound quality can be achieved at lower cost. If the interface sucks you might as well deal with vinyl and all its headaches.

 

Coming back to the PWD, if you run Squeezebox to PWD via S/PDIF then it negates all the sonic advantages of the bridge and the product will never meet its advertised potential or its design goals. It sounded good via S/PDIF but surely there are better sounding DACs at its price point given how much R&D and construction costs went into that gimmicky screen and all this bridge hoopla.

 

[catastrofe]

I have the PWD/Bridge combo, and I was a beta tester for the Bridge. While the sound of the Bridge is excellent, the functional limitations (that weren't evident during beta testing) have soured my perspective.

 

I'm currently feeding the PWD via USB from a Macbook Pro using PM1.8a. The sound is fantastic, and while I might be giving up a little on SQ compared to the Bridge, I don't notice it. I also don't have to deal with the Bridge's functional issues.

 

I'll be purchasing a new DAC fairly soon. . .I've auditioned the MSB Platinum DAC IV, Meitner MA-1, and Playback Designs MPS-5. The MPS-5 was the older version, limited to 48K so it didn't get a fair comparison. Both the MSB and Meitner top the PWD via USB. The MSB is my top contender right now.

 

[DavidL]

I have a PWT feeding SPDIF via AES/EBU to a Bel Canto DAC3 with VBS1 and this is superb on 16/44. Feeding the AppleTV digital optical out (streamed iTunes: Airplay) 16/44 is not quite as good as the PWT.

 

I believe that the essential difference is the jitter reduction achieved by the Lens (memory) in the PWT, so my aim is buy the forthcoming stand-alone Lens product PS Audio are promising for the 4th quarter 2011. I could then connect all my non-PWT digital sources (DAB, DVD, TV and AppleTV) via this and hopefully get much improved sound quality.

 

A year or so ago I suggested on the PS Audio forum that it would be worth including a slot for the Bridge board in this Lens product so that hi-res audio could be networked (ethernet and wireless) to non-PS Audio DACs via the Lens to get similar reductions in jitter. My understanding is that this is now to be included. Getting the Bridge 'sorted' is therefore of potentially high value to folk not owning the PS Audio PWD.

 

David

 

 

[Priaptor]

I have been intrigued by the MSB line. Have they established dealers in the USA or is it a direct order?

 

Also, my understanding is that you can pick and choose inputs and outputs based on preference? Just curious what add ons if any you are considering.

 

Also, I would welcome your perspective of the Meitner. I was actually a reseller of his amps and preamps back in the mid-80s. They were gorgeous looking, fantastic sounding in little redwood cases, hence the reason I am intrigued by his new DAC.

 

It sounds like you were not too impressed with the Meitner. Any comments would be appreciated.

 

thanks

 

[apple2k]

agree with what alphonse has said e: the interface. iTunes is best but Squeezebox gives you more control

 

i am betting PS Audio will figure out eLyric over time, there is too much riding on it not to work well

 

the Bridge + PWD still produced amazing sound in my system (AR VSi60 integrated + AE2 Signature speakers)

 

[catastrofe]

MSB has dealers on both coasts, but not in the midwest where I'm located.

 

The upgrade potential with MSB is high on my list of requirements, especially at their price point. You can add a USB input; they have different "flavors" with a current max capability of 384K.

 

The Meitner sounds better via USB than the PWD, and I'm still considering it given the difference in price between it and the MSB. However, the Meitner has no upgrade path, and no phase inversion. My preamp is phase inverting. . .not critical as I can swap speaker phases but not optimal. I would like to hear the EMM DAC2 with X upgrade but I'm not sure I'll be able to.

 

[barrows]

"I'll be purchasing a new DAC fairly soon. . .I've auditioned the MSB Platinum DAC IV, Meitner MA-1, and Playback Designs MPS-5. The MPS-5 was the older version, limited to 48K so it didn't get a fair comparison. Both the MSB and Meitner top the PWD via USB. The MSB is my top contender right now."

 

The USB interface on the PWD is not asynchronous, so I would not expect that the PWD would compare to other DACs favorably which use an asynchronous USB interface (I have listened to the PWD via USB, and this does not give the kind of performance the PWD is capable of). Trying a different USB interface to the PWD (Wavelink, etc) would be a better comparison.

 

RE Bridge: this device can sound fantastic with the PWD, when all is working right. And the sound via the bridge will continue to improve over time as PS Audio dials in the software. Note that developing the Bridge is the same as developing both a high end computer audio hardware interface, and a high end playback software suite (analogous to Pure Music or Amarra). So there is a lot of work to get things absolutely "perfect". Note that Pure Music continues to improve with recent versions, such is also happening with the PS Audio Bridge playback software. I am impressed that PS has stuck to their guns, and continues to work on perfecting the Bridge-it will continue to improve to the point where it is totally non-compromised in any way.

 

 

 

[timequest]

I agree with Barrows.

 

I hesitated to chime in here because I am a regular member at the PS Audio forum and an acknowledged fan of the PWD/Bridge. On the PS-A site, I have even been accused of being a "fanboy!"

 

Please let me dispel any preconceived notions about my intent here. You know…I’m fifty-years old, I have developed a pretty thick skin over the years and I tend to be quite sarcastic in my posts, but the simple truth is, I don’t care if yours is bigger than mine. I don’t defend the PWD/Bridge because I own it. I defend it because it is a fantastic product that makes my music sound better than anything (digital) that I’ve had in my systems over the past thirty years.

 

In regard to PS Audio and Paul McGowan, I cannot think of a finer example of a company and a CEO more committed to their customers. Paul is truly a forthright and upstanding guy. I respect his approach to business and customer service. Because of that, I wouldn’t bash his company or products in an open forum. More importantly though, I assure all of you that I would not praise his company or products if I thought they didn’t deserve it. If I thought the Bridge was a “lemon” I merely would not weigh in here at all.

 

To say that the Bridge is a “lemon” is not only disrespectful, it is blatantly dishonest and ignorant. If you haven’t tried the Bridge, then you truly should not weigh in about it. If you own the Bridge and experience major issues, then you really must address your overall network. The reason I say this is because, overall, the Bridge functions great with the exception of some minor skips on 24/192 FLAC (24/192 AIFF and WAV work perfectly in my system). That said, many of my 24/192 FLAC files play just fine. The other main area that needs improvement is the gapless playback and PS-A is working to perfect this.

 

Now, take a look at what the Bridge does right. The sound is outstanding (better than what many of you are experiencing …..”Mine Is Bigger Than Yours!!!” LOL!), Redbook files sound better than the actual CD’s, 24/92, 24/176.2 FLAC plays and sounds fantastic; 24/192 plays just fine with the exception of some (FLAC) files, the eLyric software is miles ahead of Twonky and works pretty darn well (and it is still being perfected).

 

I hope this helps top bring some perspective on this subject.

 

Thank you guys!

 

_Ben

 

 

[apple2k]

PSA has made an amazing product, there are some bugs with the controller software which is to be expected and which will be fixed

 

Paul & the team there are working tirelessly to get it done, I have complete faith they'll do it otherwise I would not have bought another piece of gear from them. (I upgraded from a DL3)

 

[kana813]

Ben,

 

The latest version of the Bridge software doesn't sound good.

 

Right now we've got gaps and or skips with decent SQ, or fewer gaps and or skips with poor SQ.

 

Redbook files via the Bridge do not sound better than the actual the CDs played back on the PWT.

 

IMO,they shouldn't have release the Bridge until all these issues were addressed by the beta testers.

 

Dan

 

 

 

[catastrofe]

Ben, you're such a fanboy!!! ;-)

 

Unfortunately, I don't share your faith that the PS team can resolve the Bridge issues. I hope I'm proven wrong.

 

[Audio_ELF]

@catastrofe...

Unfortunately, I don't share your faith that the PS team can resolve the Bridge issues. I hope I'm proven wrong.

Take a look at Linn and Naim... they have both gone through similar teathing troubles and come through with (arguably) great UPnP products at the end of it...

 

I'd also look at your network - a basic ISP supplied router is NOT going to hack it in a UPnP network - yes the overall speeds are fine but so much else is going on that there is quite likely to be network issues. Do yourself a favour and get a good gigabit capable network switch (yes the devices only need 100Mbps but the switching capability of the gigabit switch is greater). Brands such as Linksys and Netgear do good switches which may help with dropouts.

 

Next look at the UPnP server - I know PS Audio have promoted (at least previously) the use of routers with built in UPnP server; but I think this is an error on their part and a proper computer running their own UPnP server, Asset UPnP or one of a few alternatives (such as the Vortexbox system) is going to yeild better results. At least with Linn and Naim systems they do.

 

UPnP does seam to have a good possibilities but the Universal and Plug and Play monikers the acronym promises are a bit of a pipedream IME.

 

Eloise

 

[Priaptor]

It is my opinion and I have told Paul this on multiple occasions, he is trying to please all people, which just is not possible.

 

First, if people want, they could convert their whole music library to AIFF or WAV and playback any and all files using an earlier firmware version that many of us believe has the best SQ without issue. Some believe, myself included, that the latest version doesn't sound quite as good, particularly in the lower octaves than the one it replaces, however, with the exception, of gapless, the latest is now playing all files without issues. Understand that all versions, with the exception of gapless, never had an issue playing all files 96/24 and below and from 2.08 and above, all files above 96/24 played flawlessly if converted to either AIFF or WAV.

 

Secondly, their desire to bring a unique music server to the market, free of charge, led to much of the bad press, of the obvious beta product. eLyric, is now a fairly well polished server solution, that works in many ways better than iTunes and with the exception of AIFF cover art to be fixed in the next release, is incredibly flexible. Other products work but have the same issues others on this board experience with any other DAC.

 

Third, the product does sound extremely good. It compares favorably with many that are more expensive.

 

I too am a little skeptical if they will ever get it right. I am not sure without a larger memory buffer that great SQ, gapless and on the fly high res FLAC decoding can be accomplished. Maybe a new Bridge card will be required and/or a server solution via eLyric will be required for gapless, much the same as PureMusic does Gapless with all these great USB Dacs. If it turns out to be the former, as with other products, I am assuming but may be wrong, that as with some other products PSA has introduced, they offer very generous trade-in programs.

 

It is obvious you have not seen their latest controller for iPhone/iTouch and unique iPad controller. They are really nice and have eliminated many of the problems of prior versions and the iPad version is brand new and really nice

 

Lastly and most important, at this time the silver lining in the cloud, I personally think is pretty cool although unintended, is to have an awesome sounding DAC, with different firmware versions that can be used to one's standards. Those of us with a PSA DACS often differ as to what "sounds best" and that battle will continue whether it be different firmware versions of the Bridge, or Meitner, or AR, or dcs, etc.

 

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

You say "I too am a little skeptical if they will ever get it right."

 

What makes you believe that PS Audio can't do what Naim and Linn can? Okay so neither have produced server software for a generic computer (Naim produce dedicated hardware UPnP servers and Linn rely on third party). Both support WAV and FLAC along with a selection from FLAC and Apple Lossless along with lossy codecs. Both support gapless playback either fully or limited (in Naim's case). Both have (arguably) excellent sound quality. And both have at least adequate UI for playback control.

 

You can have your cake AND eat it!

 

There are two issues here - first is the player which if the SQ is not there and there are drop outs is a flawed proposition. Second is the server and control - my understanding is the Bridge is a UPnP AV complient system so these can be worked out either the PS Audio software or third party software.

 

Eloise

 

[Priaptor]

also (as others have posted) a little skeptical given their hardware in the Bridge that they can.

 

I hope the do. I happen to think the product is a killer product and that it is taking way too much criticism by people who either are judging the product based on complaints from their forums or who have sold their PS DACs during the earlier and more frustrating periods of its introduction period.

 

My speculation and skepticism is all that it is and when I see how PureMusic handles gapless and the processing power of decoding high res FLAC and the memory/computer intensive tasks these require, I just wonder if the hardware of the Bridge at this point is up to the task.

 

I hope so as I am owner. Personally, I would love to see PS use their fine eLyric server product to off load some of the computing requirements to their server instead of the Bridge. But that is my opinion and only my opinion.

 

[timequest]

I'm with you Priaptor. I think people who don't even own the product are making qualifying statements about its performance. The sound quality is literally anything but "bad." There are some very subtle differences in SQ between some firmware builds and the two best sounding versions are, as you say here, "killer."

 

I know what system you are running and your speakers are among the very best available on the high-end market. That you have compared some truly extraordinary-sounding DACs to the PWD/Bridge – with the Bridge coming out on top – is significant. I too have heard and compared the PWD/Bridge with some outstanding competitor DACs via the unbelievable excellent TAD Reference One speakers (this taking place at my dealers – I can’t afford the TADs!). Everyone in attendance agrees that the PWD/Bridge edged out the much more expensive competitor DACs. It is absurd to paint such a negative picture of this outstanding product. I just don’t get it….??

 

 

[Priaptor]

I enjoy listening to other components and one day may buy something different, but, by no means do I think one needs to diss a piece of equipment they have either never heard or they have gotten rid and no longer know what issues if any still exist.

 

One thing I have always found in audio is the need for some to validate their purchases or decisions; to some extent we all do that, but it is no win game.

 

Having said that I do enjoy constructive comments regarding gear and am really looking forward to hearing what catastrophe and Chris have to say about the Meitner DAC-1 as, one, they both have heard or own a Bridge and two, I once sold Meitner amps and preamps (long time ago and loved them) and would love to hear what people say.

 

Even if the DAC-1 is "better" it by no means makes the PSA bad. I think the DAC and interface are getting bad raps by people who have not used the latest interface or heard 2.0.8 and above.

 

[ziggyzack]

I'd also look at your network - a basic ISP supplied router is NOT going to hack it in a UPnP network - yes the overall speeds are fine but so much else is going on that there is quite likely to be network issues. Do yourself a favour and get a good gigabit capable network switch (yes the devices only need 100Mbps but the switching capability of the gigabit switch is greater). Brands such as Linksys and Netgear do good switches which may help with dropouts.

 

Eloise, not true. Where did this come from, is it what people have been saying on here lately?

 

I own 2 Linn DS players, one £40 Netgear 100MB/s router, and have no problem playing 24/192 on both. Nor does anyone on the Linn forum. Linn originally universally recommended getting an extra network switch, as most people's home networks have ISP-provided routers, and some UK ISPs prevent you from changing settings on their routers. But this is rare, and on the Linn forum, whenever anyone new comes on looking for advice on this, they're told by the Linnies to go with their existing router in the first instance. Linn have since modified their advice and are happy to suggest using the router you have already: http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/DS_Budget_System

 

So there are no great demands placed on a basic domestic network equipment by streamed 24/192 audio.

 

Plug and play being a pipedream, why? Ok, you may say this is a big proviso, but 'with a functioning network'... plug in a new Linn DS player, it will show up in control points a few seconds later, and you can play music on it. What's not plug and play about that?

 

I'm afraid PS Audio's implementation is not good. They eventually said on their forum that they acknowledged dropouts and skips endemic to the bridge, and then eventually said they'd identified inefficiencies in the flac codec and so were going to fix that. No-one else has problems decoding flac - but they have an engineer footling around in unfamiliar code doing god knows what. I could go on... but this is the reason PSAudio are such a let down - a vast quantity of talk and hype, a bad implementation, they still blame networks where they can, if not networks then anything but their own hardware, and on the whole they've been a shockingly bad ambassador for UPnP AV.

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

With all respect; yes Linn have Computer to ISP supplied router to DS as a "Basic" system, but their recommendation for an Entry Level system has a separate router for the DS system (I would actually suggest this is needlessly complicated and a switch is actually more important in separating the DS from the rest of your network).

 

Eloise

 

[ziggyzack]

Hi Eloise,

 

Yes, indeed that is their next level up, and there is another level up from that, which includes amongst other thing dedicated wifi access points for improved controller performance and range. But the baseline recommendations will do for flawless streaming. In my London flat, I don't need a separate WAP - large houses may need at least one.

 

Linn have dealers who need to work with existing home networks, and may not want to get involved with changing the settings of an existing router in a bespoke setup, so adding another is a straightforward alternative. Also, for more modest home networks, some ISP supplied routers are locked down - I think Sky routers at one point did this - and it was difficult to use them, or Sky would occasionally reset them, or something like that - and adding a new router makes that problem go away - hence the recommendation for an additional router. And sometimes people don't have any spare ports (in this case Linn say you only need a switch).

 

But, nowhere do Linn specify a gigabit router, or any particular make. Of course they cannot know whether the router that has come along from your ISP will be an aberration or not, or whether you've already used up every single port. The main point, though, is that the basic configuration wouldn't be suggested unless it was expected to be anything less than functional.