With a budget of $2000, what would you choose for a DAC and PC to DAC cable to maximize Redbook CD performance?

[kendrab]

There are a lot of great DAC's out there. Some use asynchronous USB, some don't even use USB at all. Some oversample, and others again do not. I am in an area where there are no decent stereo shops, so I hope to get a bit of a feedback from readers here so I can make a better choice.

 

I am looking for a way to maximize playback of 16 bit 44.1 kHz files from my PC. This will be the format for the vast majority of my music. I don't have a problem with being able to use a DAC with 24 bit 96 kHz or 24 bit 192 kHz files, but the DAC I choose needs to do 16 bit 44.1 kHz files right firstly and most importantly. The digital feed will be from the USB port on my Windows 7 PC running J.River Media Center 16.

 

To make it realistic for me (and I suspect, a lot of other readers)try to keep the cost of the DAC and its connecting cable to $2000, and recommend a currently available product.

 

I am rather new to the DAC world, and am a bit unclear as to the benefits of the various DAC chipsets, and oversampling versus non-oversampling DACs, so if you can educate me a bit along the way, that would be great. I am currently looking at these DAC/cable combinations (in order of cheapest to most expensive):

 

DIYAudio Cleo Max DAC & Wireworld Silver Starlight USB cable

 

Rega DAC & Halide Bridge Asynch USB to S/PDIF cable

 

Lite Audio DAC-83 DAC & Halide Bridge USB to S/PDIF cable

 

Audio-gd DAC Reference 7.1 Single Input DAC & Wireworld Starlight USB cable

 

What other choices should I look at and why do you recommend them?

 

Note: I had previously posted that I was going to go with an Audiolabs 8200CD, but after further thought, I have decided to go with a dedicated DAC instead.

 

[bixby]

Your choice of the Halide bridge is a solid one. I had a few dacs in my system under $2k and a few above. I ultimately came down to the Halide feeding a Blue Circle 509. The BC is a very good but little known DAC from Canada and is hand built with an excellent power supply and analog section. Does 24 / 192 and has balanced outputs.

 

This combo beat the Ayre QB-9 in my system by a good margin with better dynamics and resolution. Also beat a lot of lower priced contenders.

 

The other DAC that I would suggest looking at would be the Wyred for Sound which has a really good USB section as well.

 

[dsnyder]

Hello,

 

My shiny new Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 just came in yesterday, so it still has a few hundred hours of burn-in to go before it sounds its best. It sounds really nice so far but perhaps just a smidgen bright? Based on what I have read, I have no doubt that this will improve significantly after a couple of weeks of continuous runtime.

 

I'm using it with a 2.5m long LAT International AC-2 power cord and LAT International USB 2 Signature cable (total cost is right at $2k, not including the LAT International IC-200 Mark II interconnects that run to my power amp).

 

Before that, I had an Emotiva XDA-1 and USP-1 in the system that I fed via the COAX S/PDIF output on my Creative E-MU 0404 USB audio interface (sounded way better than my E-MU/UMC-1, but not really a fair comparison to the W4S DAC-2).

 

Deary me, I should update the playback chain in my signature. :-)

 

In this price range, I've also heard really good things about the Anedio D1, but the USB input is currently limited to redbook. Still probably worth checking out in this price range. The Rega DAC also seems to get good reviews--at least from folks who like that ultra musical "Rega" sound.

 

[john dozier]

Superb USB input. Special jitter reduction circuitry. I am extremely picky on 44.1 playback with a very revealing system and could not ask for better SQ. They also have a free thirty day trial and their website is well worth reading. Lots of good information there. NO SNAKE OIL!

 

[wgscott]

Peachtree has a new DAC only:

 

http://signalpathint.com/index.php/iDAC/iDac.html

 

That + Halide Bridge still comes in $500 under budget.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

If all you want to focus on is superlative playback of Redbook audio files from your PC, I'd consider this:

 

DAC: Isabellina from Red Wine Audio

USB Converter: Legato Analog Research Technologies

 

Total is $2k.

 

I like the idea of an off-board USB converter just because I believe the computer to be a problematic source of power and/or noise, so buffers are good. But that's me.

 

I should note also that if you like adding to your music collection, having the option to do high-res might be something to add to your portfolio of capabilities. The two-part system above will not.

 

In that case, your budget may not really permit a 2-box solution. For single-box DACs, I'd consider the following lineup in the under $2k category:

 

Wyred4Sound DAC-2

Hegel HD20

Wavelength Brick

 

Alternatively, you could try to pick up something used.

 

[darascal]

Anedio D1 Dac + Halide Bridge looks very intriguing...

 

[soundslikemusic]

I personally would go for the Tranquility dac or the Peachtree I-dac.

Hard to go wrong with either.

 

Something like, $1495 -tranquility Dac + $700 for Mac-Mini (slowly upgrade RAM and SSD Drive, etc.)

 

 

 

[HiFiInsider]

Too many DACs to choose from. My head is spinning!

 

[kendrab]

As I read more about the characteristics of various DAC chips, I see a bit of a pattern where feedback on the ESS Sabre based DAC's is they present a deeper and fuller bass presentation than most other DACs, as well as an upper treble that edges on being a bit bright.

 

When investigating the best DAC chip for Redbook CD usage, it seems many of the more highly regarded DAC's for Redbook files are using some implementation of the Burr-Brown PCM1704 chip, which is viewed as having a more natural sound. The new Rega DAC is using a Wolfson WM8742 DAC chip, and the reviews are claiming it is pretty natural sounding as well. I am interested in the Rega because it has the new Apodizing filter type as one of its five filter options.

 

Anyway, the point to this all is I am leaning away from the purchase of an ESS Sabre based DAC, because it doesn't seem to present quite as naturally with Redbook files, and its possible superiority will most likely only be in the 24 bit 192 kHz range.

 

I am unlikely to be using anything more high rez than 24 bit 96 kHz files in the next few years. If and when playing 24 bit 192 kHz files does become important, I am sure there will be another new generation of DAC's to do them justice.

 

What has been interesting in the discussions here and on another website is that there are at least three asynchronous USB to S/PDIF convertors that are being mentioned with great interest. The first is the Halide Designs Bridge, the second is the Analog Research Technologies Legato, and the third unit is the Audiophilleo 2. They all seem to be similarly priced at $450-$500, so now I will be looking for more feedback about them.

 

As for my DAC choices, I am still pondering, but the Lite Audio DAC-83 DAC with its 4 x PCM1704K D/A chipset and seperate power supply looks very attractive, as it retails for $1250 USD. Add any of the three Asynch USB to S/PDIF convertors and even a Wireworld Starlight USB cable, and I am still under budget. The negative with this unit is there is no possible way for me to listen before purchase. So feedback from anyone having personal experience with this DAC would be VERY welcome.

 

I looked at the specifications for the Red Wine Audio Isabellina DAC, it is is another interesting proposition. It uses a vacuum tube output stage, which would most likely make it sound quite decent, but as my Unison Research Unico integrated amplifier uses NOS Mazda 12AX7 tubes in its preamplifier section, I am wondering if this might be too much of a good thing? That is the same concern I have about trying the DIYaudio Cleo Max DAC...

 

 

 

[seta]

@Kendrab,

 

In your list, with the exception of the Cleo, are SPDIF-based DACs. My humble opinion is that to get the most out of USB connection, you should consider DACs that connects USB straight into the chip (i2s) and bypasses SPDIF completely. There are quite a few that does that (Ayre, Cleo, Calyx, Grace m903, M2Tech Young, Tranquility, W4S, etc).

 

A Halide bridge or similar device are great for legacy DACs that you already have, but if you can start afresh, you have the option.

 

[john dozier]

All of the dacs mentioned would serve you well, but I caution that at this level, you really need to hear the DAC in YOUR SYSTEM. I would favor manufacturers who offer home trials.

 

[bixby]

"As I read more about the characteristics of various DAC chips, I see a bit of a pattern where feedback on the ESS Sabre based DAC's is they present a deeper and fuller bass presentation than most other DACs, as well as an upper treble that edges on being a bit bright.

 

When investigating the best DAC chip for Redbook CD usage, it seems many of the more highly regarded DAC's for Redbook files are using some implementation of the Burr-Brown PCM1704 chip, which is viewed as having a more natural sound. The new Rega DAC is using a Wolfson WM8742 DAC chip, and the reviews are claiming it is pretty natural sounding as well. I am interested in the Rega because it has the new Apodizing filter type as one of its five filter options.

 

Anyway, the point to this all is I am leaning away from the purchase of an ESS Sabre based DAC, because it doesn't seem to present quite as naturally with Redbook files, and its possible superiority will most likely only be in the 24 bit 192 kHz range."

 

Let me Echo what John Dozier has said. Please do try to give a listen to some of these dacs before coming to conclusions. While you have done a good job of reading between the lines you absolutely have to hear some of these dacs before coming to this conclusion. What Dac chip a designer decides to use means squat in the grand scheme of the end sound quality of a dac.

 

And ascribing sonic characteristics to dac chips themselves is another mistake many new to selecting a good dac will make. The dac chip is only one small part of the dac.

 

Your pigeon holing of the ESS Sabre chips could not be more off the mark. I have heard the same chip in two different dacs and they could not be more different in sonic flavor. One the Eastern electric MiniMax sounded like it had an overall smile signature with recessed mids lumpy bass and ever so slightly tipped highs. The W4S dac sounded fantastically neutral and for me beat the Ayre QB-9 for neutrality and all of this with good ole 44/16.

 

If you have come to the above conclusions after listening, then I appreciate your opinion, but unless you have, most of what you read must be run through a strong filter.

 

I know this may come off as harsh criticism but it is not. I, as most others on the forum are just trying to help you in your search. But somehow you must hear before concluding.

 

cheers

 

[john dozier]

Iuse recordings I have made over the years using the best of equipment (Studer, Schoeps, RTW, Nagra, Stellavox) all of which are 44.1 redbook. I find the Anedio Dac to be as neutral as I could desire-using the Sabre chip. It is ALL in the implementation. Regards

 

[kendrab]

If there is one thing I am learning, it is that there are a LOT of good DAc's on the market that fit within my budget. I am trying to get an idea of how some of them sound, and that is difficult, as the only locally available DAC I am interested in is the Rega DAC. Being in a smaller community with no real high end audio stores makes it difficult to get a direct listen to the products I am interested in.

 

The comments that the way a DAC is implemented by the manufacturer are very true, and it was not my intent to throw mud at any of the ESS Sabre based DACs when I said "they present a deeper and fuller bass presentation than most other DACs, as well as an upper treble that edges on being a bit bright." I should have said "could be a little bright if mated with components already having that characteristic, and to listen before purchase in system you will use it with." Anyway, this comment is equally true with any audio product, and I was not trying to single out the ESS Sabre DACs as being less worthy. I am just wondering if some of the benefits from them show up in the playback of higher resolution files, which are not my main focus.

 

From the comments I have read here, the following DAC's seem to fit in my budget, and are worthy of consideration:

 

Anedio D1 DAC:

USB, galvanically isolated SPDIF 75-ohm BNC, SPDIF 75-ohm RCA, Toslink optical inputs/ESS ES9018 Sabre DAC chip/Special Low Jitter design $1270 USD

 

DIY Audio Cleo Max DAC:

Asynch USB input/Burr Brown DAC chip (unknown version)/Isolated precision clock for low jitter/Vacuum tube output stage $1075 USD

 

Lite Audio DAC-83 DAC:

AES/EBU,COAXIAL,Optical inputs/Burr Brown 4 x PCM1704K DAC chip/Balanced AES/EBU and single ended RCA outputs/Seperate

power supply in own chassis connects via umbilical cord $1250 USD

 

Red Wine Audio Isabellina USB DAC:

Galvanically isolated USB direct to I2S, S/PDIF via BNC, Toslink inputs/NOS 16-bit non-oversampling non-upsampling D/A chip/6922 dual-triode vacuum tube output stage/battery powered $1500 USD

 

Rega DAC:

Two isolated Coax S/PDIF, two Toslink S/PDIF, Isolated USB input/A pair of parallel-connected Wolfson WM8742 DAC's driven via a buffer stage/Five user selectable digital filters $999 USD

 

These are the DAC's I will do more research on, and will try to find a way to listen to. The Wyred 4 Sound DAC 2 is not on my list because I don't need preamplifier functions. I did still end up with one ESS Sabre based DAC on my short list.

 

I hadn't really thought about the Red Wine Audio Isabellina DAC before, but it appears to be a pretty innovative design. I like the 30 day moneyback guarantee too. Would it have an Asynch USB input? If asynch USB is not included, should it be ordered in the standard configuration, and then used with an asynch USB to S/PDIF adapter? Or is the USB direct to I2S equivalent to asynch USB?Feedback from anyone who has used/heard this DAC would be appreciated.

 

The good news is that I have 5 DAC's that appear worthy on my short list. That is what I wanted from this post, a shortened list of possible DAC's from the many external DACs in the $1000-$2000 range. I removed the Audio-GD DAC 7.1 from the list, because it is going to be a bit beyond my budget.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[blueixus]

If you are only interested in redbook you would be mad to buy any of the latest dacs that are optimised by their 'marketing departments' for high res.

 

Take the W4S, all spec's and no sole. And this is the issue, I would get a decent USB/SPIDF converter and a properly engineered second hand DAC, that no doubt has been sold by someone who thought on paper spec's are more important.

 

Here is just one example....

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDIO-RESEARCH-DAC1-DIGITAL-ANALOG-PROCESSOR-/320690685760?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aaaa78740#ht_500wt_1156

 

[PeterSt]

If you are only interested in redbook you would be mad to buy any of the latest dacs that are optimised by their 'marketing departments' for high res.

 

This is not entirely true for some DACs. So, just to put this in some context, also noting the contradiction in it

(and do notice that this DAC will be well above your budget at 2900 euros) :

 

The NOS1 takes 24/384 but you will not find any single place where I advertise hires. This is because indeed this DAC has been created explicitly for redbook and IMHHO it outperforms hires with that in far most cases (of source material). The few people who auditioned the NOS1 at my place will know that this is not just stories, because I won't even play hires to show its merits. The contrary ... this is an all over "who needs hires" story ...

 

This needs quite few totally different from others approaches, and one of them is that the software takes care of decent filtering which normally happens in-DAC. Here, totally nothing happens in-DAC, which also allows for real apples and apples comparison because in all cases it will behave electrically 100% the same (meaning : an e.g. 24/352.8 DXD presents 24/352.8 input to the DAC, while 8x "upscaled" 16/44.1 (XXHighEnd in my case) also presents that 24/352.8 to the DAC).

Btw, I do not say that DXD (which is unfiltered for its master version) will be outperformed by redbook material, but I sure do say that any other master (hires) material will (which *is* filtered, and wrongly ...).

 

I am merely telling this because nobody has a clue about how good reedbook can sound. For example the Beatles (not any remaster version) will sound just as good as can be, which actually counts for all material from that yesteryears. It may not be sophisticated at all times, but there's really a difference with the greyish the beatles (or Stones etc.) normally come across. For the Beatles this is about their excessive high(er SPL) frequency output which normally gets mushed with OS DACs. With a good NOS DAC this shows as way too much high frequency output, but with an NOS DAC where all is in place (meaning the proper filtering and no-ringing impulse response), well ...

And next you can always hop over to the well recorded (as redbook produced) material from today, like RR does it ...

 

As said, well above your budget (especially with crazy EUR-USD rates), but it may help to set your mind better.

And yes, *always* allow yourself to listen to any DAC you like from theories in your own system first. Focus on "no sound" from your upcoming DAC, because nothing is worse than perceiving the same kind of sound even from two adjacent tracks on the same album. Let alone from two albums from different performers. Try not to focus on the most nice sound, but on the most real sound.

 

I hope this is appropriate and that it helps you a little. Don't get crazy !

Regards,

Peter

 

 

 

[blueixus]

Peter, I think it is fair to say that your Dac and XXHE implementation would site a million miles outside the comments that I made.

 

It clearly is the result of a very focussed and logical approach and IMHO is a work of dedication and genius.

 

I have used the XXHE software which is the best I have heard by a distance and the logical implementation of ideas into the DAC and the way you have connected to the PC are completely ground breaking.

 

The comments I made are really just to point out that there are some very fine DACs out there being sold off because they don't do 'high res'.

 

Armed with a USB/SPIDF interfeace these will offer truly outstanding value and much better prefomance when compared to some of the modern 'high res' dacs.

 

[PeterSt]

I was afraid you would take it like a comment on your text (well, it just looks like it obviously), but still I did not intend that (knowing about your earlier comments about XX etc.). I -somehow- wanted to make clear that I concur so much with anyone not hunting for hires (eh, for a change ?), while in the mean time so much can be done about redbook. But I'm afraid this won't go by any sort of legacy DAC because it really needs some more to get there.

Also, it may well be that random DACs out there will make more of redbook as well, never mind they are advertised for hires.

 

A real message would be, and now I think I'm saying the exact same thing as you do, is that a DAC shouldn't be judged for its hires capabilities. Two reasons for this :

 

1. (the obvious) There's isn't any hires around anyway (reelatively spoken);

2. (the important one) hires will "smear" a DAC's capability compared to others.

 

Ad 2.

Hires is filtered (well, 99% of times) which means your DAC won't do much anymore regarding to that (filtering), so it will sound more neutral (relative to the material itself that is). But since #1 counts as well, the real merits are to be found in redbook. So, audition redbook, because that it what you will be listening to the rest of your life (just because there are millions of it).

 

Blueixus, I am sorry if I sounded disagreeing.

Peter

 

[Audio_ELF]

Peter - how was this post of any use except as blatent advertising??

 

Eloise

 

[Paul R]

Oh my - you should try the _Days of Future Passed_ HiRes download.

 

It sounds unbelievable better than the CD version. So much so, I have listened to the darn thing three or four times in the past few days.

 

I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts after listening to that through your DAC. I bet it would be amazing...

 

[PeterSt]

Peter - how was this post of any use except as blatent advertising??

 

Eloise - At reading back, hmm ... if you're focused on that (well, you always are :-), I guess it's just all over that. Still ...

 

I tried to jump on a couple of "quests" of the OP, tried to emphasize that this is not self-advertising as such because of the thing being too expensive anyway, and next got carried away. Maybe Bin Laden had to do with it, and maybe I had a bourbon too many last night here in the States.

 

I'll try to have a better focus next time.

 

Chris, please delete.

Peter

 

 

 

[Gladac]

This is my first post and let me express my opinion about CA being a great site and source of information for CAT people.

 

I own Lite DAC-83 connected to Primare CD-31 as a transport. The combination has definitely more resolution and dynamics and the same musicality/liquidity comparing to CD-31 own DAC (the same chipset 4xPCM1704UK).

 

On different forums, comparisons have been made to Audio GD 7.1, some of which preferred the GD 7,1, but other preferred DAC-83. All in all, the difference between the two was not big. In Europe the cost of Audio GD 7.1 is almost twice of the Lite DAC-83, 1800 vs 1000 Eur, hence my decision to buy DAC-83.

 

Still looking for appropriate converter/PC. The closest is the Halide Bridge or Kingrex UC192 with better PSU and Wireworld Starlight USB cable.

 

 

[kendrab]

I ordered the Lite Audio DAC-83 last Friday. I am planning on connecting it to my Windows 7 PC with a M2Tech HiFace EVO, which retails for $490 Canadian. It seems to be a well respected interface, and is only a bit more expensive than the JKenny modified HiFace Mk II (about $75 more). It will be a little while before I get the HiFace EVO, but once I do, I will post my impressions.