DAC/Pre vs. Pre

[Flac2Dac]

I've broached this subject elsewhere, but if I'm going to get a good answer, this has got to be the place. In theory, I subscribe to the conventional wisdom that the best Pre-amp is NO Pre-amp. So as a digital audiophile, with only the one source for like the last 5 years now, I've been experimenting with doing away with it. My first few attempts were not good; all the usual suspects, with regards to sound. Thin, anemic, etc. I needed to convince myself I wasn't hearing things...and having already done away with my old Pre-amp (which was nothing special really)...I bought an inexpensive, little Cary unit and I wasn't; hearing things that is...the sound was much more to my liking.

 

However, the Cary unit didn't have a remote, and I really did want to go "one-box"; so I tried a Peachtree Decco2, to run as DAC/Pre. It wasn't exactly anemic and thin, but I thought the sound was a bit too soft and laid-back for my taste. It's replacement, and my current DAC...the EE Minimax...does the best job I've heard so far; presumably, because...at least as I interpret the 6moons review...it's a "true", analog Pre stage...albeit after the DAC stage...as opposed to just digital, volume attenuation.

 

Of course, the EE doesn't have a remote either...lol...and I didn't feel like the Emotiva XDA-1 bested it. So I'm stuck again. I'm not unhappy with the EE, but I've almost thought about going back to a Pre...so that my choices of DAC/Pre aren't so limited. Problem is, I don't want a damn, BIG Pre; with like 7 source inputs. What a waste for my system!

 

What I'd really like, is a well-made, good-sounding active...with just one (or two at most) inputs; oh, and a remote! Considering what I'm after, there's no reason it shouldn't be half-size and under $1k. C'mon computer audiophiles; who knows of good one/two source Pre's?

 

Or is the answer a different DAC/Pre? I have to admit, the W4S DAC-2 is at the top of my list; because it has a remote and has been reported to act nicely as a Pre (even though it only uses the aforementioned digital volume attenuation, and Srajan did find the EE to have more meat on the musical bone...my favorite, new way of expressing that full, fleshed-out sound that I prefer...lol...than the DAC-2).

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi CD - Have considered the DAC1 series from Benchmark or the new Grace m903? If you sell your existing unit that may help bring the price of the Grace closer to your budget.

 

I'm sure there are some other products that I can't think of right now. I'll keep thinking.

 

[alphonse]

I recently purchased a PS Audio PerfectWave Dac and I initially hooked it up to a Bryston BP6 preamp connected to Bryston 300SST monoblocks. Sounded great! Then I removed the BP6 and hooked the PWD direct to the PP300s. I tried both single ended and balanced cables. To my ears it sounds every bit as good as having the preamp in the chain. No loss of dynamics. Very clean without sounding clinical or analytical or thin. After some time I intend to insert the BP6 back in to see if something was missing or not, but for right now I am enjoying the PWD as a DAC/PRE.

 

Al

 

[Audio_ELF]

Have you considered the Audiolab 8200CDQ.

 

Although a CD player (the DAC version should be middle of this year) this is actually more of a CD transport and DAC in one box. Good (24/96) async USB and analogue or digital preamp.

 

Eloise

 

[jglacken]

Have you considered the Wadia Power Dac? Almost within budget. It's one box alright with inputs, dac and gain! I have one and it plays nicely with Wilson Watts and a Rel sub. Has USB input, toslink and 2 rca digital.

 

Jeff

 

[Flac2Dac]

I looked very closely at the PowerDac, as an alternative to the PA Decco2 as DAC/Pre. However, disappointingly...the Wadia doesn't have Pre-outs...and I just didn't think the 50 per side into 4ohms was enough juice for my Dyns.

 

I'm surprised it runs your Wilson's sufficiently, but, at 92db sensitivity, the WATTS do have it over my Contours. Plus, I'm happy with my Belles amp; just looking for the "perfect" front-end...lol

 

CD

 

[MarkSA]

You may want to look at the KRK Ergo - it has an internal DAC, RoomPerfect room correction, a volume control, headphone output, sub integration, and will accept two inputs, all for around $400.

 

The only downsides are that the volume is not remote (I use a Logitech Duet to select the music and vary the volume - the room correction improvement easily outweighs this) and you can only have one input plugged in at a time.

 

 

 

[Flac2Dac]

it was a long OP, but I want to make it clear; I'm looking for suggestions on one/two-source active Pre's...as well as good DAC/Pre combos.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

But a good pre shouldn't necessarily be a cheap pre. If you're serious about seeing what a great pre might be able to do, get a great pre. However, that doesn't have to mean get an expensive pre.

 

I've never heard it, but everyone who has, has loved it. It's more than your $1k price point, but that might be okay if it delivers the goods. Maybe? Anyway, check out the Wyred4Sound STP SE:

 

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The Wyred4Sound STP SE also has a review in 6moons. The editor likes it a little bit.

 

[Flac2Dac]

Well...at $1k or under I wouldn't think it to be "cheap". But what I really want to avoid is "waste". I just can't seeing getting a 6-source Pre, when I only need one.

 

My point is...and the point of the whole thread...doesn't anybody make a quality, 1-source active?

 

[Flac2Dac]

or feedback on the NuForce P8(S)? Or DAC-9 vs. W4S DAC-2?

 

[saint]

This is right around $1k and would provide a pre, DAC and headphone amp to boot! Six Moons has a really comprehensive review and the biggest complaint they had was the unusual taper on the volume pot. I have seen that they now offer a more normal taper.

 

Hope this helps...

 

[Flac2Dac]

I'm intrigued by the Burson HA-160D. However...not to keep shooting down the suggestions I elicit...but with no remote, I'm not sure it offers anything (much) over my current EE.

 

[Flac2Dac]

I've decided $1k is just shy of what I really want; better to spend an extra $500 and be completely happy. So, the ~$1.5k DAC/Pre's that I've become enamored with are...

 

- the W4S DAC-2 (my first lust)

- the Grace M903 (or 902, depending on the improvements?)

- the NuForce DAC-9 (have to admit...dual 9018s sounds pretty sexy...lol)

 

So, what's your vote? SBT s/pdif is the source for now (although future-proofing to top-flight usb is important), I need hi-res support; will use as Pre to Belles power-amp, and must have remote.

 

[firedog]

A Nuforce dealer told me he didn't think the DAC-9 sounded good without a preamp. Said he would pair it with a Nuforce P-8S pre and then it would sound great.

 

[Flac2Dac]

I bet he did...lol. J/K...thanks for the feedback.

 

[MarkSA]

Again, I would advise you to consider the KRK Ergo...

 

The improvement given by the Lyngdorf RoomPerfect that it contains will FAR, FAR outweigh any sonic benefit that you will gain by changing DACs. On a scale of 1 to 100, changing DACs may get you to a 20, if you are very lucky. Adding RoomPerfect will consistently get you a 60-70 improvement. By FAR the biggest improvement you can make to your audio system.

 

I have just replaced my ERGO with a used Lyngdorf DPA-1 preamp ($3500) to get the remote and additional inputs and the improved DACs that the DPA-1 provides over the ERGO certainly do make a difference but it is nothing, compared to the difference that switching the RoomPerfect between on and bypass gives to the sound.

 

The ERGO has been moved to my (very inferior) home theater system in ADC -> RoomPerfect -> DAC mode, as well as to integrate a subwoofer to the system and it has made a _radical_ improvement to the sound of the home theater system. Night and day! And that is using an old Sony receiver, an old Kef subwoofer, and pretty beat-up Revel M20 speakers...

 

My main stereo system consists of the Lyngdorf DPA-1 preamp, a Graaf GM-200 tube amp, Wilson Benesch Bishop speakers, a J.A. Michell Orbe turntable with a Wilson Benesch Act 2.0 graphite arm, an Ortofon Jubilee cartridge, and a Whest 0.20 phono preamp. Nordost Blue Heaven cables used throughout. Digital input is direct into the Lyngdorf from the digital output of a Logitech Duet.

 

[Oystein]

You might look at the SPL Volume 2

 

It is below 300 so you might overlook is as serious option but for what it is supposed to do it does it very well. This unit is also reviewed on 6moons with great result.

 

The only "downsides" are no remote and balanced in and out only.

 

[Flac2Dac]

It might look a little nicer (or even sound "better")...but if I could forego a remote, I probably would have tried a Goldpoint unit long ago http://www.goldpt.com/sa1.html

 

[firedog]

FLAC2DAC-

 

No, the Nuforce dealer wasn't trying to sell me a P8 - I simply asked him how it compared as a preamp to the Nuforce P8, as I'm familiar with the P8.

 

Basically his response was a way of telling me that the P8 is a much better preamp, and that he wouldn't buy a DAC-9 without a good preamp to pair it with.

 

I already own a pretty good DAC and pre, and he knew that. Essentially he was telling me NOT to buy the P9, as it wouldn't be what I was looking for - at least not enough better than what I have to justify the outlay.

 

Anyway, just wanted you to know that it's another pre/DAC that may not be a great pre.

 

But a lot of the DACs and pre's mentioned here can be bought used at Audiogon for about half of retail. In fact I saw a P-8 there for $490 today. It's a very good pre, and a steal at that price. Something you might be interested in.

 

[Flac2Dac]

Of course I was just kidding. "Lol" and "j/k" usually indicate that.

 

I have looked at the P-8; do you know what the differences are between it and the new (and improved?) 8S?

 

[firedog]

FLAC2DAC-

 

No worries, I knew you were trying to be funny, just wanted to make sure you understood the dealer wasn't being "funny".

 

As far as the 2 versions of the P-8, here's a quote from the audiocircle Nuforce thread, by a Nuforce employee:

 

"P-8S is an improved version of P-8 (between P-8 and P-9, but closer to P-8) with a 12V trigger out. The headphone amp in P-8 (if anyone notice at all) has been removed. All existing P-8 can be upgraded to P-8S for $500. New P-8S will come with a P-9 style remote control."

 

"P-8S is essentially the same as P-8 except we reworked the preamp circuit for some improvement and the spec doesn't change. If you're happy with P-8, there is no point paying $500 extra to upgrade to P-8S."

 

So basically you lose the headphone amp and gain a remote and a 12v trigger for a Power Amp.

 

BTW, at http://www.upgradecompany.com they claim their upgraded P-8s sounds better than a stock P-9 for about half the price of the P-9, and they also sell the P-9.

 

[Fredo_Kort]

Dear All,

 

Chris' first reply suggesting the DAC1 series from Benchmark or the new Grace m903 prompted me to subscribe (while I have beeen a reader of this wonderful website for a while now) just to ask if there's any chance of a review of the m903 appearing on this site any time soon.

 

This looked likely for months now, but isnt' happening? Thank you a gazillion if it is.

 

Alfred.

 

PS To explain my situation, I'd love to order a new Weiss 202 or higher, but have to be realistic about pace & pricepoint for acquiring new equipment. It took me some time to put together a pair of speakers and a nice power amp (B&W 803D old series ex-demo, and a Naim NAP 250.2, 2008, from eBay). And I have a mac mini (2009, with brick). So: any chance the m903 might be the rightly judged missing link able to propel me into audio nirvana? I am hoping this site can provide me the info to decide that - looking for some affordable high quality...

 

PS2: While I type this, am listening to Perahia playing Mozart's Piano Concerto no 24, just a FiiO E7 between my Vaio and Senns HD650. And it is not perfect, but still wonderful. Isn't that AMAZING..?

 

[Audio_ELF]

@Alfred

 

I suspect you may find using the NAP250.2 without a Naim pre amp a disappointing experience...

 

I know the older designs relied on being fed a bandwidth limited signal, not sure if this applies to your NAP250.2.

 

Eloise

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Alfred - A review of the Grace m903 is coming. Grace is doing the right thing by fill orders for customers before sending me a review unit. I'll get in touch with Grace this week for an update.