Why third party players?

[blueixus]

Thrang, some can, some can't - would be useful to know the rest of your system.

 

I have found with both PM and Amarra they are quite system dependant as to what value they add. I am sure the others out there are too.

 

[seta]

Thrang,

 

The differences are not night and day and quite subtle. More like changing speaker cables.

 

Try A/B again, but over a longer period.

 

I find that the general "tone" are similar between iTune and others, but other areas can be different, such as

- Sound stage width/depth

- Stability of images

- Decay

- Transients

- Low level detail

 

Your 802Di should be more than able to resolve all these.

 

So try again, with an open mind.

 

[wgscott]

This isn't helping...

 

[seta]

Haha,I know what you're thinking, but man - it DOES make a difference TO ME.

 

I was trained as an electrical engineer and I denied everything before!

 

 

 

[blueixus]

Thrang, found your system, I would also try these software systems via USB.

 

One thing I found - in my system - is that optical out of my mac did not suit either PM or Amarra.

 

Using an M2Tech Hiface (USB) I get a very clear performance upgrade with Amarra over native itunes.

 

That said I have no idea how good the USB interface is on you McIntosh, is it asynchronous etc etc

 

 

 

[thrang]

Try A/B again, but over a longer period.

 

I find that the general "tone" are similar between iTune and others, but other areas can be different, such as

- Sound stage width/depth

- Stability of images

- Decay

- Transients

- Low level detail

 

Your 802Di should be more than able to resolve all these.

 

So try again, with an open mind.

 

 

I do intend to continue a/b, with some different material

 

Thanks

 

[thrang]

Thrang, found your system, I would also try these software systems via USB.

 

One thing I found - in my system - is that optical out of my mac did not suit either PM or Amarra.

 

Using an M2Tech Hiface (USB) I get a very clear performance upgrade with Amarra over native itunes.

 

That said I have no idea how good the USB interface is on you McIntosh, is it asynchronous etc etc

 

I've done actually a lot so far, and will try some more through the weekend:

 

Summary of my System (related to two channel, not the multichannel/video portion):

 

- B&W 802DI's

- Kimber 8TC cable

- Denon POA-A1 Balanced Amplifier

- (under eval) McIntosh C48 Stereo Preamp

- Intel Mac Mini, 8 GB RAM, dedicated to music playback

- AIFF uncompressed file format

- Audioquest Forest 2 meter USB cable

- Cables to Go Mini to Toslink 1 meter cable

 

The picture included is a little old - the subs are now moved out wider, and the 802's are about six inches closer each to the center to better balance to the main listening position

 

More in a moment as to the other testing I've done....

 

Thanks

 

[firedog]

I understood that one of the explanations is that players that are "memory players" produce a stream with less jitter. Is that incorrect?

 

If so, what's the supposed advantage to a memory player?

 

[Jud]

Hmm, a Mac and a McIntosh...

 

Anyhow, blueixus wondered about the USB input on the C48. Here's a quote from some product literature:

 

...uses the latest 32 bit/192kHz Digital to Analog conversion. All digital data is asynchronously re-sampled up to 32 bit/192kHz making the data independent of its source and jitter free, resulting in analog sound quality from digital sources. USB source data rates to 32 bit/192kHz are supported.

 

So it's async, and also upsamples everything (unless you find 32/192 files to feed it).

 

[thrang]

Thrang, found your system, I would also try these software systems via USB.

One thing I found - in my system - is that optical out of my mac did not suit either PM or Amarra.

Using an M2Tech Hiface (USB) I get a very clear performance upgrade with Amarra over native itunes.

That said I have no idea how good the USB interface is on you McIntosh, is it asynchronous etc etc

 

I have tried USB in a couple of ways - to the C48, and to an external HRT Streamer II+. With the HRT, this give be singled-end outs, which I've tried both to the C48 and directly to my Denon 4311 AVR (the 4311 is in my system for now, temporarily replacing the Denon AVP-A1 until the fall when Denon provides some 3D and other audio upgrades - with the A1, I will go back to a full balanced design with the matching POA amp, but for now, it is not)

 

I really cannot tell the differences between the DACs. The C48 USB drivers still need updating from McIntosh however, and that's a couple of months away - that update is supposed to addressed high bit rate via USB, where now it is limited to 48kHz - I don't know if this update will matter much for CD 16/44 rips, but who knows...So their marketing claim is not yet supported by their shipping implementation.

 

Actually, I am strained to tell the difference between the C48 (a $4k stereo preamp) and the HRT to the 4311 in Pure Direct! I did a lot of A/B testing. Soundstage was the same - bass response felt identical, high frequency presented the same; I could discern no differences on attack and decay of percussion or acoustic string instruments...instrument and note separation was again, as good as the recording would allow.

 

If I were hard pressed to say something, perhaps I could say the C48 sounded a bit more open/cleaner, and perhaps I felt some vocals sounded a tad smoother. But please do not blind test me!

 

Regarding player software, I tried Amarra Jr., Pure Music, and Decibel vs iTunes, with these different HW setups, an so far have not heard any difference.

 

Where have I heard differences? Optical out straight to the 4311 did not sound so good - soundstage was more collapsed, grainer sound - so the 4311 internal DAC must not be so well implemented.

 

I also noticed bigger differences with the preamps I've been testing - besides the C48, I've had an Audio Research LS-17, a Cary SLP-03 and a Cary SLP-05.

 

The SLP-05 is so far the best of the bunch, providing a much larger soundstage than anything else in the mix, with incredible dynamics, musicality, attack, and decay. At $8k, it was however, more than I was thinking of spending on a preamp, and will be trying an SLP-98 soon to see if that has any 05 magic (same tubes at least!)

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

"So it's async, and also upsamples everything (unless you find 32/192 files to feed it)."

 

Hi Jud - The C48 uses ASRC (Asynchronous Sample Rate Conversion). This is vastly different from Asynchronous USB transfer mode used in products from dCS, Wavelength, and Ayre.

 

Just want to make sure the correct information is here on CA. Nothing personal.

 

[4est]

Have you tried the HRT directly into one of the Cary pres then directly into an amp. IME, multi channel pre/pros and AVRs do not have the best DAC implementations for 2 channel. Forgive me if that sounds offensive as it is not my intention.

 

[thrang]

Have you tried the HRT directly into one of the Cary pres then directly into an amp. IME, multi channel pre/pros and AVRs do not have the best DAC implementations for 2 channel. Forgive me if that sounds offensive as it is not my intention.

 

Well, the 05 has been returned, but all of the preamps I'm trying have some type of HT bypass input - so all the preamps are connected directly to the amp and do not pass to the AVR - it is the AVR's left/right preouts than connect to the preamp, and you must enable the bypass feature on the preamp to play (passthrough) AVR audio to the amplifier. So the hookup is:

 

AVR >>> PREAMP >>> AMPLIFIER

 

Music audio source is connected directly to the preamp (other than my comparative testing of AVR performance)

 

Yes, I have found the one sonic detriment so far was toslink out to the AVR and letting the AVR do d/a...not so good.

 

However, feeding the 4311 an analog signal from the HRT Streamer II+ DAC, and leaving the 4311 in pure direct mode, appeared indistinguishable to me vs using the C48 preamp.

 

[4est]

I wouldn't trust pass through either as I have experienced them mucking things up too. As has been described previously here, the differences in players is subtle. Within a high resolution chain it can be very noticeable. Image size, depth & placement and dynamic shading are the most pronounced changes other than the overall presentations ie: frequency balance or macro dynamics.

 

Really though, I cannot stress enough that to get good 2 channel, one needs to remove the multi channel gear. In mine, in order to get my AV mixed in, I run the front mains out of a processor into a 2 channel preamp. It is hokey (and a bit pricey), but it works.

 

[Jud]

Chris writes:

 

Just want to make sure the correct information is here on CA. Nothing personal.

 

Thanks! I very much appreciate getting the correct info.

 

In fact, remembering vaguely some other threads here that got into "async vs. async," I was wondering a bit as I read about the C48, but thought from the marketing description regarding getting rid of jitter that the data stream was being asynchronously reclocked. Never trust marketing speak - or my non-engineer's level of understanding! - I guess is the moral of the story.

 

[thrang]

I wouldn't trust pass through either as I have experienced them mucking things up too. As has been described previously here, the differences in players is subtle. Within a high resolution chain it can be very noticeable. Image size, depth & placement and dynamic shading are the most pronounced changes other than the overall presentations ie: frequency balance or macro dynamics.

Really though, I cannot stress enough that to get good 2 channel, one needs to remove the multi channel gear. In mine, in order to get my AV mixed in, I run the front mains out of a processor into a 2 channel preamp. It is hokey (and a bit pricey), but it works.

 

I think you might have misread my setup - my avr passes into the preamp, not the other way around, so two channel listening is purely preamp and amp. The avr is not in the chain for this aspect of listening.

 

I did alternatively listen to musc through the avr ( as noted, using the HRt Streamer II + DAC to input analog into the 4311/Pure Direct), and it sounded the same as using the c48 via USB or toslink from my Mac mini, which was very surprising...

 

[blueixus]

 

 

"Actually, I am strained to tell the difference between the C48 (a $4k stereo preamp) and the HRT to the 4311 in Pure Direct!"

 

Sounds like the 4311 is the restricting factor even in Pure Direct AV Amps are messy environments compared to good stereo pre amps due to the huge amount of stuff going on inside them.

 

I run my Tag Maclaren AV processor and my 'Mac/Dac combo (volume controlled in the player software this is not to everyone tastes!)' into a remote switched box that has two inputs and one output this sends one or other of these sources to the stereo power amp. The Tag is connected directly to the other power amps when it is doing the home cinema thing. This is a simpler and cheaper route than 4est version but achieves the same thing - If you don't mind running your Dac straight into your power Amp. I don't, in fact I prefer it but some don't.

 

The only multi channel amp I have ever trusted to act as a stereo pre amp was a Copland CVA306 - but that has absolutely no processing capability at all as I was doing that all in the DVD Player.

 

I also wonder about the absolute efficacy of the Dac/USB input of the McIntosh after Chris's comments. If you spent that money on a DAc to run alongside the Denon AV kit that may be a better route

 

 

 

[thrang]

Sounds like the 4311 is the restricting factor even in Pure Direct AV Amps are messy environments compared to good stereo pre amps due to the huge amount of stuff going on inside them.

 

You are misunderstanding - most of my testing was just stereo preamp and amp- the preamps support ht bypass inputs, but they are not in the audio chain for preamp music listening. Third party players made no sonic changes.

 

My point was a comparative one - routing the HRT Streamer II+ output to the 4311 in Pure Direct mode sounded essentially indistinguishable from connecting USB, toslink, or the HRT to the c48 directly from my Mac mini...

 

 

 

[4est]

From their website:

"With unprecedented flexibility and control, C48 redefines what a value preamp should be. Moving coil and Moving Magnet Phono sections combine with assignable digital inputs in the perfect blend of traditional and contemporary music sources. Dedicated USB input allows access to computer sourced music. Five band programmable tone controls allow personalized music correction."

 

Maybe this pre is just a dog then...

 

[thrang]

I do have a Carver classic TFM-15 amp which I can swap in...I will try that and see if that reveals anything different...

 

[thrang]

Maybe this pre is just a dog then...

 

?

 

 

 

[4est]

A "value" preamp with all of those features is not likely to be a high end implementation, hence your biggest differences have been by swapping out preamplifiers. I have not heard a c48, and this is pure speculation on my part. There is a thread here about using preamps with high end DACs that presumably do not require them due to volume attenuation ect. I believe that a great preamp is important.

 

[thrang]

A "value" preamp with all of those features is not likely to be a high end implementation, hence your biggest differences have been by swapping out preamplifiers. I have not heard a c48, and this is pure speculation on my part. There is a thread here about using preamps with high end DACs that presumably do not require them due to volume attenuation ect. I believe that a great preamp is important.

 

 

 

I understand what you're saying now - fwiw, I'm running with eq bypassed, but so far it sounds so similar the 4311 that I could not see investing the money in the c48. One factor still to evaluate more is fatigue - does the 4311 fatigue after long listening ( so far it has not) - the c48 certainly is not fatiguing no matter how long you listen.

 

But could the c48 be so inferior that is could mask sonic differences between iTunes and third party players? I'm sure it is possible, but personally that is hard for me to grasp

 

I'm awaiting the slp-98 to evaluate so that might help shed light on this

 

Thanks

 

 

[Jud]

Chris's information about what's actually going on at the C48 USB input does open up a couple of possibilities for you to try. A Halide Design Bridge between the Mini and the C48 input will give you async USB transfer (further reducing jitter) *and* electrical isolation; for less money you could get a Musical Fidelity V-Link that will give you the async USB transfer (but not the electrical isolation) and allow you your choice of coaxial S/PDIF cables. (You could also get electrical isolation using Toslink out of the V-Link, but I - and IIRC, Chris - liked the V-Link's coax output better.)

 

Or at the price of the McIntosh you could buy the Bridge or V-Link and look around on dealer's websites, Audiogon, etc., for top-end used pre-amps, e.g., Spectral.

 

[4est]

"But could the c48 be so inferior that is could mask sonic differences between iTunes and third party players? I'm sure it is possible, but personally that is hard for me to grasp"

 

Maybe, or maybe not. It only takes one weak link to muss things up. It may be as simple of not having optimum speaker placement for your room in order to capture the spacial cues...