Best DAC ever heard

[barrows]

RE: R2R, I have not listened to any in a long time, oh, except the Resolution Audio DAC/player and MSB at shows, not in my system. One thing they do bring to the party is higher distortion than the better SDM DACs, as they just cannot reach the same level of resolution. I suspect this may be why Stereophile's review of the MSB has not been published, as maybe the measurements looked bad... just speculating though.

To my mind, it seems telling that those with the most experience designing the actual converters: dCS, Meitner, Playback Designs, Chord, ESS, TI, etc. all seem to prefer SDM, I am not so sure that R2R has any real advantages-maybe the extra distortion is euphonic in nature? Once again, just speculation though. It does seem interesting to me that dCS, Playback Designs, and ESS all share a similar conversion topology...

 

But, I would love to hear some R2R DACs in my system some time-or get my hands on a BB 1704 based DIY board which I could play with to learn what it can do. I am pretty impressed by the ESS 9018 chip though, when put in a tricked out implementation it can sound really great.

 

But, I still feel power supplies and output stages trump the differences of various chips, and/or discrete converters. Just today I put a different output stage (IC opamp based instead of discrete) in my DAC just to hear the differences... Very different...

I think the Medea is good 'cause of the power supplies, and analog stages, of course the digital side is no slouch... What Weiss uses for a async USB interface looks really good as well.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Keith & Spacey - This is your one warning. Enough of the sophomoric posts.

 

Also, please make sure your signature contains an identifier that you have a vested interest in certain products. If you're unsure what to include please contact me.

[spacey]

No probs Chris, understood. I don't have any vested interests in anything HIFI, other than the system I own which I’ve paid full retail price for. I am not in the trade or have ever been so. I'm an architect and product designer; I own my own design practice. The nearest I've ever come to being related to the hifi trade is designing bespoke speaker stands for myself and a few friends, I've never made any money out of them, I've designed them because I like to see my designs being enjoyed by others. Hell, if anything, it costs me... Time is money when you’re self employed! The only person who makes money out of them is the people who build them, which I don’t get involved in.

 

Thanks for your patience.

[spacey]

Chris, while i have your attention , when will this mystery review and DAC be revealed?

[The Computer Audiophile]

Writing it as we speak. Hope to publish in the next couple days.

[spacey]

Coo'ell - I'll keep checking in. Look forward to reading it.

[MikeJazz]

The only DAC setup I listen to, that set itself in a class apart, was the dCS Scarlatti with company (upsampler, clock and all).

I am always shocked by the price of these things...But the moment I entered the room I forgot all things mundane and listened to the music...

 

The discs were CD's (nor even HD!!)...

 

Then, of course the Wilson and Conrad Johnson gear played a big role. But it was the most naturally expanded sound that I listened.

 

Later, a Lyngdorf Millenium produced a experience with many points in common.

[spacey]

How did the Millenium compare to the TDAi?

 

I owned a TDAi2200 with RP/ADC. CD1, with Wilson Benesch Arcs a few years back. The Millenium was the next logical step, but decided to go for an active system instead.

 

I'd like to hear the Model-D one day.

[Purite Audio]

MSB are good, the other dac that really impressed me was the GTE 'Toblerone' dac, I think it was a ladder design, triangle shaped cases , it was horrendously expensive though Euros 40kish.

Keith.

[AudioExplorations]

I am getting a Medea Plus to try. I will use Pure Music's digital attenuator as I don't have a separate pre-amp, nor do I want to get one as I am single source.

 

Let us know what you think of the Medea+. The Pure music volume control is good but the Medea also has built in properly dithered volume (with a remote) so this takes some strain of the computer, this is my prefered route. Also, let the medea play 24/7 at full volume (just switch off the power amp at night) as I did find after a few weeks of running in it opened up and improved considerably, particularly in the treble.

[robert f]

How could be Playback Design one of the most experienced designer with those measurements?

Playback Designs MPS-5 SACD/CD player Measurements | Stereophile.com

[AudioExplorations]

The Playback Design MPD-5 DAC may be more relevant in terms of computer audio as it comes with a asynch USB solution and is a very interesting product indeed. The issue for me is that (as with most other DAC's on the market) it would need to be used with a preamp. The output voltage is fixed at 4Vrms balanced and 2Vrms single ended and in my case would need huge amounts of digital attenuation (in Pure music for example) to achieve desirable listening levels going power amp direct. Weiss DAC's are the only products that overcome this hurdle with the adjustable output voltage. For my amp and speaker combo the sweetspot is 0.49V (-4dBu) where only minor digital attenuation is needed.

[spacey]

many manufacturers dither correctly. Linn have been doing so for years with the DS player. Weiss are not the only manufacturer to do this correctly (which they've done so very well with a "course volume setting"), AudioExplorations. Have look here: 6moons audio reviews: Resonessence Invicta

 

C&P'ed from the link above:

 

Output voltage on XLR/RCA vs. readout equals 5/2.5V for zero attenuation, 4/2V for -2, 2/1V for -8, 1/0.5V for -14, 0.5/0.25V for -20 and 0.2/0.1V for -28. The manual volume control proceeds in 0.5dB intervals from -125.5dB to zero.

[AudioExplorations]

spacey we are talking about different things.

 

digital attenuation- yes there are countless dacs on the market with well implemented 32bit/24bit dithered digital attenuation, resonessence and weiss included.

 

adjustment of output voltage of the analogue output stage alone (independant of digital attenuation). weiss are the only products I am aware of that have this. even at 100% digital volume (0 dB digital attenuation) the output voltage can be adjusted via a trim pot from 0.245V to 17.35V to match it to the gain and sensitivity of the amp and speakers so that little to no digital attenuation needs to be used. digital attenuation is great in small amounts, however if too much is used you will start to chop off bits and loose resolution.

[MikeJazz]

How did the Millenium compare to the TDAi?

 

I owned a TDAi2200 with RP/ADC. CD1, with Wilson Benesch Arcs a few years back. The Millenium was the next logical step, but decided to go for an active system instead.

 

I'd like to hear the Model-D one day.

 

The active way is the way!

Millenium was better (wider presentation), but now that much; but I never compared with the same setup of Speakers.

[spacey]

OK, maybe I've missed something, can you show me where these trim pots are?

 

spacey we are talking about different things.

 

digital attenuation- yes there are countless dacs on the market with well implemented 32bit/24bit dithered digital attenuation, resonessence and weiss included.

 

adjustment of output voltage of the analogue output stage alone (independant of digital attenuation). weiss are the only products I am aware of that have this. even at 100% digital volume (0 dB digital attenuation) the output voltage can be adjusted via a trim pot from 0.245V to 17.35V to match it to the gain and sensitivity of the amp and speakers so that little to no digital attenuation needs to be used. digital attenuation is great in small amounts, however if too much is used you will start to chop off bits and loose resolution.

[AudioExplorations]

on the original medea there are two on the front panel (L and R channel independant). See top image.

 

 

On the new Medea Plus there is one on the back panel between the analogue output sockets (bottom image).

[spacey]

Thats a switch which toggles between high and low output. Its not a trim pot?

 

You can see it better on this link: Photo Enlargement

[AudioExplorations]

Your right, I thought I could get away with posting only the one image .

 

Here is the actual Medea Plus back panel:

 

 

[Purite Audio]

On the Medea Plus there is a rotary switch which allows you to choose the output level, physically it is in the same place.

Keith.

Beaten to the punch!

[AudioExplorations]

Also visible on the nudies of the analogue output stages (Medea Plus left, Medea original right).

 

[spacey]

I can see that now, thanks. Much clearer to see them on my-highend.com pics. Also Weiss need to update the website, the link i posted is direct to their wesite!

 

Shame the DAC202 doesn't have the same?

[AudioExplorations]

Adjustable through the menu's on the display. Much more course with only 4 steps vs. the Medea which can be tuned to anything needed. The DAC2 has 4 course settings via a similar rotary pot implementation as the Medea.

[spacey]

I found the 1.06v setting to be too high when using the internal digital preamp.

0.4-0.5v would've been spot on. Maybe this could be added in a firmware update?

[Purite Audio]

Raj what is. the output of the Invicta, presumably that is variable and lower than 1.06v?

Keith.