TEAC UD-701N - Undiscovered gem or farce

[bodiebill]

23 minutes ago, Miska said:

Which OS are you using to connect to the DAC? Maybe you are using DoP and thus being limited in terms of maximum DSD rate.

 

GentooPlayer with HQPlayer embedded > Diretta ALSA > direct network connection > Afterdark Rosanna Diretta Network Bridge > USB > Teac

 

This same chain did DSD512 well with only an Audio-GD R8HE Mk2 put in place of the Teac, so it does not look like a DoP matter to me.

 

I will do some further experiments, such as streaming DSD512 direct to the Teac, but due to the change of my wall outlet I cannot play anything now... Will report back later. 

[Nicoben45]

Thanks a lot for your answer @Miska. 
 

1 hour ago, Miska said:

Then the conversion stage itself is kind of filter itself (albeit fairly low attenuation), followed by analog post-filter (typically something like 12 dB/oct or 18 dB/oct).

The thing that I wanted to show and that I don’t understand is here. In NOS mode, how the analog low pass post-filter can let some 44 and 88khz noise appear at -40db? it's almost like an absence of low pass filter no? What kind of analog low pass filter can let some 44 and 88khz signal appear at -40db? 😅 

 

[Miska]

38 minutes ago, Nicoben45 said:

Thanks a lot for your answer @Miska. 
 

The thing that I wanted to show and that I don’t understand is here. In NOS mode, how the analog low pass post-filter can let some 44 and 88khz noise appear at -40db? it's almost like an absence of low pass filter no? What kind of analog low pass filter can let some 44 and 88khz signal appear at -40db? 😅 

 

In DACs, the analog post-filter is usually 12 dB/oct or 18 dB/oct with corner frequency of 100 kHz. So it won't cut anything below 100 kHz and above that at those rates per octave (doubling of frequency).

 

[Nicoben45]

Crystal clear, thanks 😉

[bodiebill]

3 hours ago, bodiebill said:

I will do some further experiments, such as streaming DSD512 direct to the Teac, but due to the change of my wall outlet I cannot play anything now... Will report back later. 

 

Streaming DSD512 via the Teac (NET setting) works well. SQ is not optimal alas. I will continue my quest...

[tdx]

@Miska or other owners of this unit, I own its bigger cousin (Esoteric N-05XD) and, assuming they share the same input/outputs, I'm looking for tips to maximize its use with HQplayer. I have the following questions:

 

- Is there any way to stream HQplayer through the NET input? Or is it possible only through USB? I know it doesn't have NAA functionality through its ethernet input, but wondering if there's another way. The NET input of the DAC is based on Lumin and sounds better to me than straight USB, so I'd love to utilize it with HQPlayer.

 

- When using HQPlayer to send DSD to the unit, is it recommended to turn off all digital filters on the DAC side? 

 

- Finally what are some recommending HQplayer DSD settings to use with this DAC?

 

Thanks in advance! 

 

 

[Miska]

23 minutes ago, tdx said:

- Is there any way to stream HQplayer through the NET input?

 

No, since the built-in network input is lacking the NAA software component.

 

23 minutes ago, tdx said:

Or is it possible only through USB?

 

Only through USB.

 

23 minutes ago, tdx said:

- When using HQPlayer to send DSD to the unit, is it recommended to turn off all digital filters on the DAC side? 

 

Set the DSD Filter to FIR1 or OFF. FIR2 will just generate a lot of distortion and it is not recommended.

 

23 minutes ago, tdx said:

- Finally what are some recommending HQplayer DSD settings to use with this DAC?

 

DSD256 or DSD512 output. ASDM7EC -series modulator, such as ASDM7EC-super, ASDM7EC-light, ASDM7EC-super 512+fs, ASDM7EC-light 512+fs or ASDM7ECv3 for example.

 

Use fixed output level, either Fixed 0 dB or Fixed +6 dB.

 

[tdx]

Just now, Miska said:

 

No, since the built-in network input is lacking the NAA software component.

 

 

Only through USB.

 

 

Set the DSD Filter to FIR1 or OFF. FIR2 will just generate a lot of distortion and it is not recommended.

 

 

DSD256 or DSD512 output. ASDM7EC -series modulator, such as ASDM7EC-super, ASDM7EC-light, ASDM7EC-super 512+fs, ASDM7EC-light 512+fs or ASDM7ECv3 for example.

 

Use fixed output level, either Fixed 0 dB or Fixed +6 dB.

 

 

Thanks so much, I really appreciate. Having tested the TEAC unit which I think shares a lot of the same components do you think the USB input is ok vs the ethernet input? Or do you think the streamer input is better?

[Miska]

23 minutes ago, tdx said:

Thanks so much, I really appreciate. Having tested the TEAC unit which I think shares a lot of the same components do you think the USB input is ok vs the ethernet input? Or do you think the streamer input is better?

 

I have only tested the USB input, since the network input is useless/unusable for me. I just turned it off (luckily there's such an option).

 

At the moment I have Holo Red (running my NAA OS) as a NAA for the TEAC.

 

[tdx]

Just now, Miska said:

 

I have only tested the USB input, since the network input is useless/unusable for me. I just turned it off (luckily there's such an option).

 

At the moment I have Holo Red (running my NAA OS) as a NAA for the TEAC.

 

Got it thanks. Curious, is there a sonic benefit to using the Holo Red between your computer and the DAC? Or is it just for convenience? Right now I'm running HQP straight from my PC to the DAC with a good quality USB cable, but if you think the Holo can make my chain better I can get it...

 

Thanks again.

[Miska]

19 minutes ago, tdx said:

Got it thanks. Curious, is there a sonic benefit to using the Holo Red between your computer and the DAC? Or is it just for convenience? Right now I'm running HQP straight from my PC to the DAC with a good quality USB cable, but if you think the Holo can make my chain better I can get it...

 

I don't know for sure, I just happened to have Red available as NAA on the equipment rack in my music room. HQPlayer servers are too far to be connected to equipment in that rack, so all DACs there are accessed through NAA.

 

I don't think TEAC has galvanic isolation for the USB, so using either a good quality NAA and/or Intona USB isolator may very well be worth it. Measurements were done using Intona isolator.

 

I'm using balanced XLR connection to my preamp and I would recommend using it if possible. Unbalanced outputs from TEAC are quite dirty (wide band), so balanced output may give cleaner results as well.

 

[tdx]

1 minute ago, Miska said:

 

I don't know for sure, I just happened to have Red available as NAA on the equipment rack in my music room. HQPlayer servers are too far to be connected to equipment in that rack, so all DACs there are accessed through NAA.

 

I don't think TEAC has galvanic isolation for the USB, so using either a good quality NAA and/or Intona USB isolator may very well be worth it. Measurements were done using Intona isolator.

 

I'm using balanced XLR connection to my preamp and I would recommend using it if possible. Unbalanced outputs from TEAC are quite dirty (wide band), so balanced output may give cleaner results as well.

 

Understood that makes sense. I'll see if i can score a used Red and give it a try.

 

As for the connection, I would love to use balanced XLR but unfortunately my amp (Riviera AIC-10) is SE only and thus only takes RCA. But I've invested in a really good pair of RCA cables (Audience AU24 SX) which helps sound wise.

 

Thanks

[SwissBear]

On 7/20/2023 at 10:23 PM, Miska said:

The thing has so many settings that doing my measurements / testing took one and half days!

 

Today I was playing and listening music for quite a while, HQPlayer running on my Linux development machine, output to Holo Red running NAA OS image connected over USB to the DAC. No stutters or anything like that.

 

 

Since I posted also some measurement results on the T+A thread, maybe I post some results here too. Source is 44.1k file unless otherwise stated.

 

First with the default settings, NOS mode and multibit modulator. You can clearly see the stair stepping on the output waveform and the images around multiples of the sampling rate.

 

Then turning on 8x oversampling (max it can do), multibit modulator:

 

Same, but with 1-bit modulator DSD FIR1 setting:

 

Upsampled by HQPlayer to DSD256, UD-701N DSD FIR1 setting:

 

Upsampled by HQPlayer to DSD256, UD-701N DSD FIR2 setting:

 

Upsampled by HQPlayer to DSD256, DSD FIR disabled:

 

Upsampled by HQPlayer to DSD512, UD-701N DSD FIR1 setting:

 

Note that the DSD FIR setting has no effect on out-of-band noise! FIR2 is some kind of tubey-distortion-generator.

 

Multitone, 8x oversampling, multibit modulator:

 

8x oversampling, 1-bit modulator, DSD FIR1 setting:

 

Upsampled to DSD256 by HQPlayer, DSD FIR1 setting:

 

Upsampled to DSD256 by HQPlayer, DSD FIR disabled:

 

Jtest, 8x oversampling, multibit modulator:

 

8x oversampling, 1-bit modulator, DSD FIR1 setting:

 

Upsampled to DSD256 by HQPlayer, DSD FIR1 setting:

 

 

So, with HQPlayer, use DSD FIR1 or DSD FIR disabled. DSD256 or DSD512.

 

At DSD512, even with aggressive 7th order modulators, there are no ultrasonic noise bumps at all.

 

Output voltage levels are the same for both balanced and unbalanced output connections, so doesn't seem to be a fully balanced design.

 

The built-in 8x oversampling filter is very slow roll-off / leaky type.

 

Hi Jussi,

 

It's nice to see you posting measurements of the benefits of your upsampling strategies.

Is there any way you could open a thread where you would post a link to the various measurements you have posted, so that everyone can easily retrieve the best options for his/her own DAC ? 

The Holo Spring thread is so long that finding your measurement into it is a painful exercice. Also, have you measured the TA-200 ? How does-it compare to this one ?

Thanks

[Miska]

13 hours ago, SwissBear said:

Also, have you measured the TA-200 ? How does-it compare to this one ?

 

Yes, I have. I posted some of the results after Lothar posted his. On the respective thread.

 

[TNK]

Hi

 

Sorry if I missed the information :

 

what was the frequency used in the internal modulator of the TEAC for 1 bit ? 512 fs?
 

If it is 512fs, should you get approximatively the same result with DSD512 input ?

 

To my knowledge (Of course I may be wrong) on USB, this TEAC only accepts DSD in DoP form limited to DSD256. 
Can HQP and NAA on RED go up to DSD512?

 

Thanks for your answers. 
 

Best and kind regards

Thierry

[Miska]

4 hours ago, TNK said:

what was the frequency used in the internal modulator of the TEAC for 1 bit ? 512 fs?

 

512 fs yes.

 

4 hours ago, TNK said:

If it is 512fs, should you get approximatively the same result with DSD512 input ?

 

I totally depends on what modulator that DSD512 input is sourced from. Quite a bit better in the case I have shown.

 

4 hours ago, TNK said:

Can HQP and NAA on RED go up to DSD512?

 

Yes, since you don't need to use DoP.

 

[TNK]

Thanks for your answer. 
 

I will try to be more precise. 
 

Do you think that the differences in measurements between 44 kHz without conversion to DSD512 and with conversion to DSD512 can be clearly heard on a high end setup? (1 bit, 512fs inside modulator). 

 

I own an Esoteric N05-XD and I made some TEAC tests before. Their DA principles are the same. 
Just looking at the DA conversion inside Esoteric (same for TEAC) , before seing your measurements, I had the idea of converting every track to DSD512 (with Roon and Audirvāna) just to avoid activity in the Esoteric FPGA. 
I only used ethernet input. 

The differences can clearly be heard. I shared this idea with several Esoteric and TEAC owners and they had the same conclusions. 
 

So, now I am wondering what is the main reason for improvement: 0 activity in FPGA or better intrinsic measurements » or better measurements are a consequence of FPGA 0 activity?
 

About USB on Esoteric (same input card as TEAC) I did not succeed to use native DSD (no DoP) with a Raspberry with Volumio, or a Mac Mini M2 with Jriver. With Roon, on a Raspberry with Ropieee, only DoP is available. 
I only succeeded tonight with (a quite old) Esoteric player on Mac Mini. 
 

I just installed HQP with Roon on the Mac Mini to a Rasberry with Ropieee. And till now, native DSD still does not work. 
 

So there is something a bit weird about USB. A friend of mine has an Esoteric and a RED for a second system. I will ask him to make some tests. 
Last question: did you use RED OS or another one ?
 

Thank you for your time. 
 

Kind regards

Thierry

[Miska]

21 hours ago, TNK said:

Do you think that the differences in measurements between 44 kHz without conversion to DSD512 and with conversion to DSD512 can be clearly heard on a high end setup? (1 bit, 512fs inside modulator). 

 

I own an Esoteric N05-XD and I made some TEAC tests before. Their DA principles are the same. 
Just looking at the DA conversion inside Esoteric (same for TEAC) , before seing your measurements, I had the idea of converting every track to DSD512 (with Roon and Audirvāna) just to avoid activity in the Esoteric FPGA. 

 

As you can see, the results hugely depend on the modulator implementation you are using.

 

21 hours ago, TNK said:

I just installed HQP with Roon on the Mac Mini to a Rasberry with Ropieee. And till now, native DSD still does not work. 

 

Maybe try with my NAA OS image on RPi4?

 

21 hours ago, TNK said:

Last question: did you use RED OS or another one ?

 

No, I use my own one (NAA OS).

 

[stefano_mbp]

22 hours ago, TNK said:

I just installed HQP with Roon on the Mac Mini to a Rasberry with Ropieee. And till now, native DSD still does not work.

HQP embedded works fine with rpi4/RoPieee here up to dsd512 that is my dac max capability , just configure usb output in RoPieee/NAA.

Can you share your RoPieee and HQP configuration settings? … don’t configure RoPieee as a Roon endpoint as RoPieee/Roon endpoint and RoPieee/NAA will be conflicting

[Miska]

5 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

HQP embedded works fine with rpi4/RoPieee here up to dsd512 that is my dac max capability , just configure usb output in RoPieee/NAA.

Can you share your RoPieee and HQP configuration settings? … don’t configure RoPieee as a Roon endpoint as RoPieee/Roon endpoint and RoPieee/NAA will be conflicting

 

I'm not sure if it has the driver support yet. It's not so long ago when I added support for native DSD on this TEAC.

 

[TNK]

Hi

 

Thanks everyone for your answers and support.

 

 

I just installed naa-450-rasperry-holored OS

 

On Esoteric, still no native DSD (PCM 384 are sent), if I switch ON DoP SDM pack in HQP, then everything is fine, but no DSD512 of course.

 

If @Miska says that support for the TEAC is recent, it means that nothing works out of the box. Esoteric maybe a bit different with Teac, so finally, I am not surprised. I used to have a RED when I was testing the Teac, and only Dop available at this time.

You can see at teac.jp that for example a Asio usb driver is needed on Mac... I do not know exactly what are their USB at Teac and Esoteric, but nothing straightforward.

 

For the other subjects, it will be too complex to go on talking about the links between measurements and hearing. So, for me, this discussion has come to an end.

 

I was testing USB on Esoteric and HQP at the same time (because Esoteric has no NAA). But in every day life, I only use ethernet input and will not change that.

 

Many thanks.

 

Thierry

[Miska]

5 minutes ago, TNK said:

On Esoteric, still no native DSD (PCM 384 are sent), if I switch ON DoP SDM pack in HQP, then everything is fine, but no DSD512 of course.

 

If @Miska says that support for the TEAC is recent, it means that nothing works out of the box. Esoteric maybe a bit different with Teac, so finally, I am not surprised. I used to have a RED when I was testing the Teac, and only Dop available at this time.

 

I don't have the Esoteric, just the TEAC device. Esoteric may be also easy to support, but if you'd like to get it supported, you need to contact me over email and I can give some instructions how to obtain some more information about the USB interface.

 

5 minutes ago, TNK said:

I was testing USB on Esoteric and HQP at the same time (because Esoteric has no NAA). But in every day life, I only use ethernet input and will not change that.

 

On my 701N I just turned off the network interface, luckily they have the option to do that. So I just use an external NAA + USB.

 

 

[TNK]

@Miska Your support proposition is very nice, but DSD256 is enough to get an idea between Roon DSD conversion, Audirvana DSD conversion (R8brain) and HQP. I will be ready if Esoteric goes NAA or if I change my DAC.

 

I have updated my profile page 🙂

 

 

 

[robi20064]

The network streaming component in the TEAC and Esoteric shall be an OEM one from Lumin. Unless Lumin decides to add NAA support, I don't think you are going to see it in these products either.

[Nicoben45]

It would be a great, constructive thing for everyone to have, as was the case with Leedh Processing, NAA and Diretta integration let's be crazy.... in Lumin integrated and OEM products 😜 It would above all be technically coherent to have these tools integrated in network reading, short internal i2s links, rather than having to remain on an intrinsically less efficient usb audio link.

The network card  integrated into this TEAC and Esoteric are identical, just like the dac cards of the UD701 and N05XD are nearly the same.