desbiss Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Am wondering what the general consensus is when it comes to external drives... Does one go with a SSD or a HDD...? My mini already has a SSD internally, if I add an external drive for my music files can I get away with a HDD in the external drive? Am presuming a SSD in the external drive would yield minimal improvement on sound quality...? Des Link to comment
dmccombs Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Des, An SSD external drive will sound better if you have an excellent sound system, with a Macmini (or other top source) with internal SSD and most/all of the software mods. Yes, using an SSD helps even if your software/player uses Memory Play. The downside of using an SSD drive for external storage is the MUCH smaller disk you will be able to afford. So, if you have a GREAT system and can afford the big cost difference, an SSD drive can be worthwhile. Most people go with a regular hard drive in a good sounding Firewire enclosure. The sound is still very good and you can enjoy nice big 1-2TB drives. Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Going by recent findings from member Peter St. , I am beginning to wonder whether all makes and types of SSD are actually an improvement over HDD regarding sound quality. I have read numerous reports via Google that SSDs can even be noisy, and their power demands reflect through the system,(most likely due to their internal DC inverter ?) as well as occasionally high pitched noises from internal inductors. I suspect that like everything else, a good PSU is part of the answer, whether SMPS with better than average regulation between outputs, or Linear PSUs.. A linear PSU for an external SSD could be worth investigation ? SandyK How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
desbiss Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Do you have a sense for the incremental difference between using a SSD vs HDD (external) drive? Here's why I'm stuck on this... The difference I experienced when I swapped my internal stock HDD and RAM was very significant... Would the difference one may expect from the external drive (SSD vs HDD) be the same incremental step that I experienced when I swapped the mini's stock internal HDD and RAM. (To an OWC Mercury Extreme Pro SSD with OWC 2.0GB Modules x 2 Matched, CAS 4 Low-Latency RAM.) I'm mainly concerned about taking a step backward in sound quality with a HDD in an external enclosure... Or is this not likely the case since the internal drive and RAM remain as is (upgraded)...? What are your thoughts on the OWC Mercury Elite-AL Dual Pro Mini (RAID1) external drives? Would this be considered a good sounding enclosure...? The cost for the aforementioned SSD versions is huge compared to the HDD version(s)... If the HDD (external) version brings me no decrease in sound quality, I expect this would be the way to go... Thanks again, Des Link to comment
desbiss Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Are you referring to the external drive's power supply or the power supply of the mini itself? (My mini has the external brick...) I hadn't even considered that an external drive enclosure could have either a linear or a switched mode power supply... If this is what you mean, are you aware of anyone who sells a linear enclosure? Thanks, Des Link to comment
wgscott Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Copy some music to your internal SSD, disconnect the external drive, and then play it, and see if it sounds any better. Another option is to attach an external USB drive to an airport extreme, and use a player with memory play like Audirvana. Nothing like a wireless connection for galvonic isolation. I'm playing around with that right now. Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Hi Des I am referring to the external drive's PSU. Most cases seem to come with an external SMPS plugpack. No, I am not aware of anybody who sells them, although I have read a few reports about such items being available. Alex How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
dmccombs Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Des, The "incremetal difference" is a tough question as we can't measure this. I would say that putting an SSD in an external enclosure (vs a regular drive) is 40% the sound quality increase of upgrading of the internal drive to SSD. The OWC enclosure uses the Oxford chipset, which is very good. I can't comment on the dual drive enclosures though. I don't know if they sound worse than single drive enclosures. Hopefully other folks chime in on that. I think the regular hard drive in a good enclosure is a good solution for most folks. If you have a serious kick-ass system, then the SSD can be a nice improvement (and the extra $$$ MAY seem "like a drop in the bucket"). I use an external SSD in my system and appreciate the sound improvement, but I have to buy and test this stuff. I know, its a tough job sometimes... ;-) Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Nothing like a wireless connection for galvonic isolation. I'm playing around with that right now." Nothing like a wireless connection for degrading ultimate SQ either ! SandyK How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
wgscott Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 The file gets copied into memory. It is the same file. Or do you think merely having a wireless connection degrades sound quality? Link to comment
elcorso Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Des, I have very good results with and externel Hard Drive recommended by Chris Connaker: Oyen Digital 2.5" MiniPro 1.0 TB. It's buss powered from the MacMini 2010 FireWire, but also my mac is isolated by a Trip•Lite IS250HG (Isolation transformer) that helps a lot. But I will like to have a LPSU feeding AC to my Mac, SandyK has a lot of experience regarding this matter (between anothers). And wgscott regarding "wireless connection degrades sound quality?" Yes wireless = noise: The same bits with noise embedded, or noise to your system feeded by the irradiated sound of the wireless: RFI. Happy listening, Roch Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 "The file gets copied into memory. It is the same file. Or do you think merely having a wireless connection degrades sound quality?" Yes, I do, as does moving .wav files around between internal and external drives. Many people are now reporting that SSD sounds better than HDD, and direct playback of "lossless" files'doesn't sound as good as if they are first converted to .wav files before playback. Anything that uses another power supply (especially SMPS) etc. is prone to induce either EMI or "Jitter" to the file being played. I think it comes into the same category as different CD /DVD players exporting the same 1s and 0s when used as a transport, sounding different, with the more expensive players usually sounding better, or Sony's BluSpec CDs sounding better than the same content on a normal CD with most affordable players, despite inbuilt error correction. A lot more research needs to be done in this area, A possible exception to this appears to be commercially provided high quality .flac files which appear to suffer little, if any, degradation even after being copied to CD and back again to a HDD.. I have no idea why this should be so , though. SandyK How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
nigel Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 This is just nonsense. And if your system is that susceptible to RFI, I suggest you get a better system. They do exist. nigel[br]ALAC stored on Drobo -> Mac Mini -> iTunes -> Airport Express (1st gen) -> Monoprice toslink -> NAD M2 Direct Digital Amplifier -> Wilson Benesch Curve Link to comment
wgscott Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I take my hat off to you, sir. Link to comment
desbiss Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 I am looking for a RAID 1 enclosure so I can have file redundancy. Oyen does make a model (noted below) that would work but it does not have a FireWire 400 port... (I'm on a mid 2007 mini, which does not have FireWire 800 ports...) DataTale AIR FireWire 800, USB, eSATA 2-Bay RAID Link to comment
desbiss Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Thanks again Darrell. I'm still curious though, will putting my music files on an external HDD (vs SSD) be a step backward in sound quality... I do not want to lose the improvements I had gained when I upgraded my mini's internal drive to a SSD and increased the RAM... I will go with an external HDD if no sound quality degradation is to be expected. If it is a possibility, then I'll need to consider an external SSD RAID1 configuration (or a non RAID external SSD configuration to save $)... Thanks again, Des Link to comment
elcorso Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 @desbiss, My Oyen has 3 ports: Firewire 800 (2), Firewire 400 (1) & USB 2.0 (1, but miniport). An remember you still can use an Firewire 800 --> 400 adapter. There are also Firewire 800 --> 400 cables. But you can connect your MacMini 2007 by the Firewire 400 without problems, speed is more than enough. You should look if the DataTale has the very good Firewire interphase that my Oyen has: "Industry best Oxford 943 chipset". Happy listening, Roch Link to comment
elcorso Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 @nigel, Welcome to the Nonsense Community® If you didn't no, even the trees are susceptible to RFI...!!! Also @wgscott, that's why he is always wearing a helmet. Happy listening, Roch Link to comment
desbiss Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 ...hadn't realized FW 400 to 800 cables/adapters existed. This opens more options, thanks. Des Link to comment
coot Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 All this yammering about noise makes me think its 'much ado about nothing'. I don't know about you, but my whole house makes noise just sitting here. I have not scientifically measured how much ambient noise there is, but I'll bet any of you are going to have a noise level that is different from mine. My home is 50 yards from the waves of the Pacific (and today it is anything but). Yours might be in the city, another in the country. I'm sure there are probably hundreds of factors in (or on) your house that will make your ambient noise level different than mine - flooring and insulation being two. Point is, I doubt whether in real life listening you or I could HEAR such minute electronic noises given the amount of ambient noise(s) present. Nor can I do much about my current listening environment. It is what it is. One thing I do know for sure: Today being laundry day, there will be no music due to unusually high ambient noise! Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Perhaps you also need a good pair of headphones ? Won't help much with a vaccuum cleaner going though ! SandyK How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
wgscott Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 How much does the audio file become degraded each time you listen to it? Link to comment
wgscott Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 So just for an experiment, I decided to degrade one of my audio files (a copy), by opening it in vim and deleting a single binary character somewhere far south of the header and metadata, to determine if I could hear a difference. Then I attempted to play the slightly altered audio file. It is completely corrupted and unusable. I did it a few more times in different places to make sure this isn't just a fluke. It isn't. Whenever I delete a single binary character, the file becomes unplayable. It isn't a case of sonic degredation. Rather, the file is destroyed. This is not unique to audio files, by the way. Try it with any binary file, like a microsoft word file. You don't just insert some bad grammar on page 42, paragraph 3. The whole file becomes corrupted, and unopenable. If a file is becoming degraded upon copying it, you will know it, and it indicates something is dreadfully wrong with your CPU. Link to comment
sandyk Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 "How much does the audio file become degraded each time you listen to it?" It doesn't ! As I mentioned previously, I find that a .wav file of high quality sounds a little degraded when it is initially moved between HDDs. It's like a fine veil has been added. It doesn't keep getting noticably further degraded with subsequent moves. SandyK How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
wgscott Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 If you move the same file back and forth several times, does it still degrade, or does it reach some sort of plateau? Does its checksum change? Link to comment
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