PREAMPs: Neutral/Transparent vs. Colored/Character

[ArcticSapien]

Hi, I am interested to know why audiophiles here may prefer:

* Neutral/Transparent preamps (eg Holo Audio Serene or PS Audio's BHK Signature),

vs.

* Colored/Character preamps (eg the likes of ARC, McIntosh or Naim).

 

(1) I appreciate that there will be different preferences. I don't think there's a "right vs. wrong" choice but am keen to know the reasons for your preference... this helps me to decide on my own path! Thanks.

Here's a story. A sound engineer I know often expressed his bewilderment on why HiFi folks don't value accuracy as much as them. But of course, it's a different kind of listening. Sound engineers try to reproduce exactly what they hear... voices & instruments. Perhaps they miss out on the "fun" factor. Nonetheless, I thought they may have a point about neutral reproductions.

 

Did I just trigger an Accurate vs. Musical debate? Didn't mean to. Just wanted to hear your reasons for your preference.

 

(2) Is there a magic formula to match or synergise components? Eg do you stick with transparent components all the way (DAC + preamp + amps)? Or mix-and-match along the way to "balance" them out?

 

 

(My own view of preferences is guided by Daniel Kahneman's work on psychological perceptions. To have a taste of this, check out this short BBC clip about the McGurk Effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0 ... or recall the Yanny vs. Laurel debate. In short, YMMV. But your reasons are important for me to learn.)

[ArcticSapien]

Thanks. Great views. 

@GregWormald Totally understand the reading while listening distractions... happens all the time

@fas42 I'm gonna quote this now, "accurate is always musical"!

@cjf Thought of skipping preamps too but the passive volume attenuator seems like a hassle. Some say to keep the front end sources (Bridge/DAC) clean and, if you want, to add character at the back end, say via your tube amps. Wonder if preamp is the backroom or frontline!?

 

Seems like a 3-0 score now. Hope to hear alternate views from those who like preamps with character.

 

I see the choice as "different" flavors rather than "better/worse"... Like sushi with or without wasabi, both can be nice. I guess our pair of ears finally decide for us, but great to hear different views too.

[ArcticSapien]

I must admit I'm leaning towards transparent preamps (thanks for the reminder on Benchmark LA4). 

OTOH I also tested the Arc Ref6SE and Naim 252, and both had Wow factors (McIntosh C22 was meh). But they cost a few times more than a nice transparent preamps (eg LA4 or Holo Serene). My work-in-progress system without a preamp already gives beautiful tingling feelings. Do I really need those big preamps? But I must be missing something... gotta be some good reasons the ARC/Naim are the queens of preamps?

 

The ARC/Naim/McIntosh dealers are telling me the second biggest part of my budget should be allocated to preamps, after the speakers. Well... views from interested parties!

[ArcticSapien]

15 hours ago, cjf said:

I use the built-in digital Vol control found within my playback software (Roon) and dont find it to be detrimental to the SQ. If I did think it was a major compromise I would use something else.

 

15 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Me, too, but I find that a low noise, high output active device can be useful under some circumstances.

Cool. Helps alleviate my anxiety order about blowing up the speakers!... in case Roon controls screw up. Thanks for the other tips @cjf @Kal Rubinson. Good reading from Siau.

 

Will check out:
* no preamps (digital control), vs

* passives (wrongly assumed earlier they don't have remotes), vs

* transparent preamps, vs

* colored preamps.

 

I'm not enamored with "perfection" or "precise accuracy". Other than acoustic music, all other live performances are already colored anyway with mic/guitar amps etc, aren't they?

 

Hmmmm... I'm now wondering if I may need two flavors: one transparent system (digital volume or transparent amps) for jazz/classical/acoustics, and another with a tube amp for those loud/fast hard rock stuff. Ahhh, complicated hobby!

[ArcticSapien]

11 hours ago, GregWormald said:

Denafrips DAC—Pontus II

SGR Active speakers—MT 3.3 

Simaudio MOON pre—740P

Simaudio MOON phono pre—310LP

(The highly modified Linn LP12/Ittok LVII/Troika remained the same.)

Very nice. You're right that MT 3.3 isn't even on their website yet.

I similarly got hooked on R2R ladder DACs after hearing Ares II. Ended up with Holo May instead... but wondering since then if I missed out on the Denafrips Pontus or Terminator.

Holo May is so dark, transparent and resolving (I'm sure Denafrips too) that it started me thinking about transparent preamps. Or to skip them altogether.

[ArcticSapien]

19 minutes ago, hopkins said:

How did you determine that those preamps are neutral/transparent? 

 

Review from others. Holo Serene was nicely reviewed by @GoldenOne and Ron/New Record Day. BHK has been around longer and well-covered, but seems to have mixed views on its neutrality. Benchmark LA4 also earned strong reviews on its transparency.

 

I'd rather not get into measurement discussions, which I believe belongs to another section ;)

[ArcticSapien]

1 hour ago, GregWormald said:

At the money I was spending I read everything I could find on pre-amps that had the features that were a must.

Good Kaplan article. Thanks for sharing. I saw your endorsement of the Moon 740P in another post. I've to add it to my list now. 

That's an awesome collection of music too!

 

Can you share your list of must-have features for a preamp?

[ArcticSapien]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

IMHO, measured technical excellence is a prerequisite for being neutral/transparent.  

I agree, of all attributes, neutrality can and should be measured. I'm just not chasing perfect precision. 

 

Having said that, I'm less certain of some audiophiles' assertion (not yours) that measurement alone, sans hearing, can determine how good an equipment or a synergistic system is.

 

I imagine folks 50 years ago trying to measure sugar content and salinity to describe umami taste, before savoriness was even well understood.

I don't know if soundstage depth, height and width are measurable. Or imaging precision or airiness. Ok we digress... 😁

[ArcticSapien]

15 hours ago, fas42 said:

This is a good indicator that one is looking for something that is not truly accurate

Good warning and cold shower here! This hobby has a way of creating itches that demands heavy scratching... at your peril. Ahhh, those tube preamps are like those irresistibly sweet singing sirens...

 

21 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Yes but now that science has defined the receptor mechanisms and their distribution, the measurements can be properly directed.

And keep up the good work at Stereophile! We're all depending on your controlled testing... together with the wisdom of the crowds.

 

9 hours ago, GregWormald said:

When I was trying to decide whether to buy the restrained silver or black, or the more 'stand-out' two-tone

Thanks for listing your criteria. I just saw this two-tone... gorgeous when stacked up. See from 3'28". Do you use the Moon 820s as your 740P power source?

 

 

[ArcticSapien]

21 minutes ago, Summit said:

3. I value all audio aspects and can't chose one over all others so I would look for a preamp with as few audible flaws as possible. 

Do no harm (your point) vs. Seeking Perfection vs. Spice them up.

As others noted, one problem with Spicing them up may be Sustainability... or rather Unsustainable listening. 

So, we all shall remember Homer and Hippocrates.

[ArcticSapien]

On 11/19/2021 at 5:21 PM, hopkins said:

The fact that something is "'not measurable" should not imply that it is necessarily "subjective".

I know what you mean. Just to note that by definition, subjective is "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions", i.e. not measurable... Ergo, not measurable is necessarily subjective :)

I believe though you meant, not measurable doesn't mean not nice. Or as @Summit more elegantly put here.

E.g. this tomato has a good umami taste... but oops, we can't measure umami (yet)!

2 hours ago, Summit said:

correlation between "better measurements" and better SQ

 

[ArcticSapien]

Ok, here's my burning question after getting lots of good advice here.

A preamp with natural sounds that doesn't change the original input seems to be good choice.

(I'm avoiding terms like neutral/transparent to avoid triggering a different discussion)

(I also see that the original input doesn't necessarily mean the same as "live music" since these may be inevitably colored by mic or guitar amps anyway.)

 

So, some of us may prefer a preamp that Jon Iverson described as "Nothing". https://www.stereophile.com/content/nothing-what-i-want

 

But why would we pay $20,000 vs $10,000 vs $5,000 for different preamps that give the same "Nothing"?

Won't a $2,000+ Benchmark LA4 or Holo Audio Serene do the same thing?

• Is that because none of them are "truly natural"... i.e. some more than others, hence we might pay more for those which have a higher level of naturalness?
• Or is it because some give a better Gain than others?

In short, why pay more for a preamp if they give the same Nothingness?

Thanks!

 

(Let's assume they all have the same types and quantity of inputs/outputs)

[ArcticSapien]

4 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I do not understand what the term "natural" contributes to the discussion.

It is to avoid endless discussions on what neutral/transparent means and distract from what I'm trying to learn about different preamps that create "Nothingness". Pure transparency can be important to some, but not to me. I'm not pursuing purity.

But I see that I'm not very successful in avoiding this distraction, hahaha. Audiophiles are such a passionate bunch.

 

Here's a Tomato🍅 story:

I like my tomatoes au naturel... with nothing on and straight into my mouth. My friend likes it with a light dose of salt... with imperceptible salinity but which brings out a richer umami. Alas, we can't measure that umami but he likes it nonetheless.

The taste is clearly Different... but Better/worse is relative to that individual.  

Meanwhile it is hard to define the pure taste of tomatoes... depends on the seasons, rainfall, species. So, I don't need to have that defined... I just like them "as is" without the salt.

[ArcticSapien]

6 hours ago, fas42 said:

However, if you must have one, then the cheapest which is completely invisible, "nothing", is the one to buy - paying more should just add visual bling to the situation, if that's something important to you.

I can appreciate the simplicity... it makes sense that any thing else added can only increase the likelihood of changing the sound.

 

I'm also reading that a preamp can give it bling (I like your term!). Eg this Jim Austin article describes the PSA BHK Signature as giving "more" to an otherwise Excellent direct setup. https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-bhk-signature-preamplifier

I don't know if he meant the sound is no longer au naturel, eg it's just a bling effect.

 

But I take your point about the cheapest. Hope others can give alternate views about pricier preamps, eg @GregWormaldspoke for the Simaudio Moon earlier. Just hoping for views on cheap/pricier "nothing" preamps before I start the auditions... besides it is hard to get home trials for some models that are sold directly or that are short in stock (blamed on the pandemic).

 

 

 

[ArcticSapien]

On 11/21/2021 at 9:42 PM, MarkusBarkus said:

I have, and very much enjoy, the Luxman c900 pre-amp.

@MarkusBarkus I ended up with the Luxmans as well, C900u and M900u (as stereo, not monoblocks like yours). Can't really say they're "neutral/transparent" but I agree with you that they're certainly not heavily colored. Thought they're under-rated though (and also under-covered as a brand).

 

The views in this topic helped me avoid heavily flavored amps. Thanks. But I also decided to drop trying to chase "full transparency". As @fas42implied above, very high transparency also means walking on a thin edge of being unpleasant, unless all the ducks in my system are perfectly lined up... attempts to get to this level of perfection takes away some enjoyment for me! So, just get close to the neutral zone, then simply let the ears pick!

[ArcticSapien]

@Jacobsen These passive preamps (and amps) look and sound nice... I often wonder why we have to lose an arm and a leg for them when they seem to have less parts. Less is more! At these lofty prices, it's like buying an artwork. Still dreaming of having one though.

 

Here's Japan's Kondo passive preamps (with eye-watering price tags)

https://www.audionote.co.jp/en/products/pre_amplifier/