T+A DAC 200

[OE333]

42 minutes ago, davidv100 said:

Dear OE333,

Have you ever thought about building a DSP room treatment module for the T+A DAC 200 ?
- Would it be technically possible ?

- Would it make sense ?
 

More generically, is a DAC the right place to fit-in DSP room treatment ?
My feeling is yes - but I may be totally wrong.

Thank you very much for your answers - will be interesting. 

 

T+A has a very long tradition in digital room equalization: back in 1995 T+A launched the Solitaire A2D active loudspeakers containing a digital room-EQ  system with 11 DSPs per speaker (quite expensive at that time) and the MEP room measurement system.

 

With this background we of course thought (and think) about digital EQ for the current T+A devices but in my opinion the DAC would be the wrong place for it. Room EQ requires a lot of computing power and I don't like the idea of integrating this much digital computing hardware into a DAC because it would inevitably bring problems with electromagnetic interference and adverse effects to the analog parts of the DAC.

Furthermore there is enormous progress in computing power every year so any room-EQ digital hardware would be outdated in short time.

 

This is why I believe that room-EQ today should be done in a powerful audio-PC. If you use HQ Player or roon, then these systems have already everything on board you need for room-EQ.

The e.m. interference is no problem in this case because all digital processing takes place in a separate box and last but not least a PC can easily and at reasonable cost be upgraded or exchanged when higher performance hardware appears on the market.

 

So my two cents in one sentence: Do the processing in a dedicated audio PC and keep the DAC electromagnetically as clean as possible.

[OE333]

43 minutes ago, Shadorne said:

Almost all digital filters have a sinusoidal ripple in the passband.

 

To my knowledge upsampling of time-discrete functions by using interpolation methods like Bezier polynominals or cubic splines does not result in passband ripple - please correct me if I am wrong.

If this is correct then (as said in my post) the Bezier oversampling should not produce any pre-echoes.

 

[OE333]

1 hour ago, Shadorne said:

Do you refer to the final output digital filter or are you referring to the interpolation digital filters used in each stage to upsample?

 

The DAC200 has an upsampling stage where all incoming PCM data is upsampled to 16fs. The 16fs stream then goes directly to the sigma/delta converter, bypassing the internal upsampling filters of the DAC chips.

The analog output of the DAC chips is finally filtered by an analog reconstruction filter.

 

Given this signal path I was referring to the upsampling stage.  In case of the Bezier upsampling (OVS = BEZ1 or BEZ2) the upsampling is not done by stuffing Zeroes and then digitally filtering the stream, instead intermediate samples between the original samples of the incoming stream are computed by interpolation using Bezier polynoms.

[OE333]

@Asdfgh and @kishoreburidi

 

Well noted. We will check what is possible.

[OE333]

1 hour ago, davidv100 said:

Dear OE333, how wrong am I ? Totally wrong ? Average wrong ? Actually not that wrong ? 

 

 

It all depends on the target group.

 

Members of this forum have a lot of experience and knowledge and want to be at very foremost edge of technology. For this kind of audiophile users a good quality but standard streamer might not be the source of their dreams.

 

But from my experience 90% of the customers of audio equipment are no such extreme audiophiles. These customers do not really care about extreme sampling rates, about the most sophisticated upsampling schemes, room-EQ etc. They just want an excellent sounding but uncomplicated system with easy set-up and easy operation. For them a reliable streamer, integrating access to almost all music content in one box, with consistent operation, perfectly tuned and matched to their DAC +PWR AMP is just what they want. For these customers the MP200 is the ideal solution.

 

[OE333]

On 9/17/2023 at 2:34 PM, CharlieR said:

@OE333I was thinking about this the other day, what type of signal is used between MP200 and DAC200 if not i2s? thanks

 

There is a S/P-DIF and a USB connection between MP200 and DAC200.

The MP200 chooses the connection according to the requirements of the audio stream.

 

As MP200 currently supports PCM up to 192k, S/P-DIF will be normally used, and USB is there for future updates...

 

[OE333]

7 hours ago, Asdfgh said:

@OE333 With the DAC200 & A200, would 2m XLR Interconnects & 8m speaker cables be technically superior than the opposite? 

 

Technically 8m XLR and short speaker cables are preferable because this will provide a high damping to your speakers. The 8m XLR length does not matter, the DAC200 can easily drive 250 or more meters XLR if needed.

 

BUT according to my experience, high damping is not what always sounds best.

Lower damping will normally increase the bass region a bit relative to mids and highs. This most cases leads a little bit "warmer" and more "relaxed" sound but on the other hand sacrificing a bit dynamics and control.

What is best in your special case (i.e. with your speakers, room acoustic, cables etc.) works best is hard to tell. Of course it also depends on your personal taste.  So try and listen.

 

With the A200 you could do a very quick first test: toggle the damping factor of the A200 between high and low damping using the "DF LO" button on the front panel. If you like low damping better, then probably longer speaker cables might be the best choice for you. If you like high damping better, go with short speaker cables.

 

[OE333]

2 hours ago, 1125FPS said:

Someone who does not own DAC 200 asked if there is already V2.  I suggested that may refer to HA 200 but not DAC 200.  The label on my DAC 200 specifies V1.  

 

What month/year did T+A release DAC 200 in the US?  Same Q for Europe?  

 

Many thanks!  

 

DAC200 was released in October 2021 worldwide.

 

Some information regarding the T+A firmware version numbers:

The firmware version number can be displayed via the Settings menu of the DAC200 and it looks like "V x.yz"

x:= Hardware revision

y:= Major firmware version

z:= Minor firmware version index

 

A change in the Major FW version number means, that additional features have been added.

Normally this also brings a new version of the users manual-

The latest version can always be downloaded from the T+A website  -> https://www.ta-hifi.de/wp-content/uploads/um_dac200_de_en.pdf

 

The minor FW version index just denotes small little improvements or small (uncritical) bugfixes.

Information on the current firmware and its history can also be found on the T+A website under

Support -> Series200 -> DAC200 -> Software -> Version Information

 

For information about the current FW version (V 1.1A) see attachment below.

 

 

Regarding Hardware revision of HA200:

Currently exist two hardware versions of the HA200. The changes in HW from rev1 to rev.2 were

1.) new Bluetooth receiver chip

2.) new LED driver chip (for the front panel LEDs)

 

These changes had to be made because of the production stop of the original chips.

Everything else (i.e. the whole digital and analog audio signal path, pwr.supply etc.) remained unchanged.

The changes do not affect sound quality or functionality of the HA200.

 

HW version 1 is (and will remain) fully supported.

The 2.x FW is fully compatible with the rev. 1 hardware - so a FW upgrade via MP200 will upgrade a V1 HA200 to the latest 2.x firmware.

 

DAC200_Versions.pdf

[OE333]

8 hours ago, lsantista said:

is it easy to change the voltage of the DAC200 internally, or does it have to be done by a dealer? 

 

AFAIK Brasil is a special case with several different mains voltages (115V, 127V,  220V).

This is why at the T+A factory special versions of the DAC200 with special mains transformers are produced for the Brazilian market.

The changes to the Brazilian model can only be carried out at the T+A factory (or maybe a qualified service workshop with original T+A parts).

 

[OE333]

11 hours ago, Asdfgh said:

Thank you, thats really helpful. Also, how would you compare 2 x A200’s vertically Bi-Amped compared to 2 x M200? 

 

I personally would prefer (and recommend) two M200 monos.

 

 

11 hours ago, Asdfgh said:

Aside from the power difference, is the M200 technically superior in other ways?

 

Advantages of the M200:

• More potent power supply
• Separate power supplies for L&R channels
• Separate cases (less cross talk)

 

[OE333]

On 9/23/2023 at 1:03 AM, Asdfgh said:

Thank you. What about the A200’s being used to vertically biamp instead of horizontally, ie using the 2 channels of the A200 to drive the tweeter and woofer on a single speaker? You would then still have seperate cases and seperate power supplies for L&R channels. Or is vertically biamping the A200 not recommended for some reason?

 

Of course you can use two A200 for vertical bi-amping - no objections.

 

But with the M200 you would have higher power, higher output current (= more stability).

As said before: I would prefer two M200 over two A200 in bi-amping.

 

Better still of course: 4 x M200 in vertical bi-amping 😉

 

[OE333]

I am currently working on the DAC200 firmware.

I have learnt from the discussions on this forum that there is interest for some additional features like

• making the "USB-SYS" input available as a second USB in
• storing certain settings (Oversampling, Filter and Invert) independently for each input

These features will (for the near future) not be included in the standard T+A firmware, but I could make a special version of the DAC200 firmware including these features as a private project.

This special firmware could be flashed on to the DAC200 with either the official T+A programming adapter (recommended) or with the home-brew DIY adapter (https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/63998-ta-dac-200/page/15/#comment-1239207)

 

Anybody interested ?

 

Any suggestions for other additional features ?

 

 

[OE333]

 

@Apollo, @SPAZ, @Asdfgh

 

Here comes a short answer to your questions:

• There will be a way back to the original T+A firmware
• I have access to the T+A firmware source code, so I can make a new FW version with the extended features whennever this is needed
• HT PassThrough is likely to be a new feature in the next major release of the standard T+A firmware but maybe I can integrate a pre-view of this feature in my "special edition" FW

I will be on holiday next week but I will respond in more detail when I'm back home.

I think I could release the "SE" firmware by mid of October.

 

[OE333]

Hi SPAZ,

good luck with your homebrew adaptor project !

 

V 1.19 is quite up-to-date.

You can test your homebrew adaptor with the Flash tool. When you click the "connect" button, the flash tool will perform a communication test and inform you of the result. If the connection can be established, your adaptor is working properly.

If you successfully reached this step, lean back and wait for the SE firmware...

 

 

[OE333]

@davidv100   thank you for your suggestion. I will think about what can be done. More details next week.

[OE333]

23 hours ago, davidv100 said:

So, my candid question :

Would you say the preamp of DAC200 is "state of the art", meaning I need no other preamp actually.
Or would you say DAC200 is mainly a DAC, with a rather good preamp coming as a perk, but an external preamp would still be better.

Also, is the volume control of DAC200 done digitally (before/in the DAC Stage), or is it done in the analog stage (not digital) ?
And which is better ?

 

No question, the pre-amp inside the DAC 200 is a state of the art pre-amp. It is based on the discrete (no OP-Amp) circuit technology from T+A's highly rated HV series and it is really a no-compromise top design.

 

The volume control in DAC200 is purely analog. It is a so-called logarithmic switched resistor ladder using hermetically sealed gold contact relays and audiophile non-magnetic high precision resistors. This kind of volume control is quite expensive but it is hard to beat and it is superior to digital volume control because it does not loose resolution when turned down to normal listening level. In contrast, the only advantage of digital volume control imho is its low cost - in a DAC it comes for free at absolutely zero cost.

 

[OE333]

29 minutes ago, davidv100 said:

 

I will be skipping the external preamp and use DAC200 in full : DAC + Preamp.
Less connectors, less cables, less loss...

 

👍

[OE333]

This weekend I found the time to work on the DAC200 firmware with extended features. I integrated the following additional functions:

1. 2nd USB input
2. separate VOLUME & BALANCE settings for Pre-Amp mode and headphone mode
3. settings for OVS, WIDE and INVERT stored separately for each input
4. screen saver mode (automatic dimming of the display)

The other suggested features (disable remote control for Volume only &  HT Pass Through) I will probably include in the next eXtended firmware version.

 

I will do a little testing now with the new version and I will release it in short time.

If somebody is interested in this extended firmware, please send me a PM, I will then send you a link to download it.

 

[OE333]

On 10/19/2023 at 8:44 AM, Hydrology said:

Can this file be uploaded to the DAC200 through the MP200 or do you need the official/DIY cable for this one?

 

Yes, currently (and in the near future)  a programming adaptor (official or DIY) is needed.

But it could well be, that some of the extensions will find their way into the standard firmware. Then an upgrade could be accomplished via MP200.

 

[OE333]

10 hours ago, Vangelis said:

Is the fuse inside the DAC200 easily accessible? Anyone know the spec on the fuse?

 

Which fuse do you mean ? There is more than 1 fuse inside the DAC200.

 

The 2 mains fuses (one for analog and one for digital pwr supply) depend on the mains voltage - so we also need to know the mains voltage spec. of your device (100V, 115V, 127V, 230V)

[OE333]

Just a short status report:

It seems a few members have meanwhile installed the 1st version of the extended DAC200 firmware.

I have received some reports of successful installations and I hope everything is working well.

 

I am currently working on the second version of the extended firmware for DAC200.

This 2nd version will have the home theater pass-through as an additional feature.

 

The following extra features will then be available with the extended DAC200 firmware:

• storage of filter/OVS and Invert settings for each input
• 2nd USB input
• separate Phones/PreAmp volume&balance
• screen saver for OLED display
• Home Theater Pass-Through for the analog input

 

[OE333]

7 minutes ago, droffen said:

Hi OE333,

I really hope this will somehow come to the official firmware for the HA200 as well …

 

Well, I think some of the features like Home Theater Pass-Through and separate Phones/PreAmp Volume do not make sense for the HA200.

The other features could become part of the standards firmware, but I think this will to a great deal depend on the feed back on the new features and if enough users express demand for it...

[OE333]

On 10/31/2023 at 10:21 PM, Vangelis said:

It is a U.S version 115 V. I only see one fuse in the chassis by the transformer. Where is the second fuse?

Thank you

 

 

There are two mains fuses ion the DAC200 (see picture below).

The value for the fuses is printed on the PCB (or on a sticker next to the fuse).

 

According to my records the value of the fuse for the analog power supply for 115V mains voltage is   T 630mA L 250V~

For 230V this fuse is T 315mA L 250V~

 

The input mains fuse (TR5 type) is T 2A L 250V~ for all mains voltages.

 

 

[OE333]

@SPAZ:

 

Congratulations - I'm glad to hear that everything works as expected.

Have fun with your 2nd USB input !

 

[OE333]

4 hours ago, Hydrology said:

Would anybody have a complete set of remote codes for the 200 series?

Some of the buttons toggle through different inputs and ideally to keep the system as family friendly as possible I would like to set up macros that use discrete codes.

 

 

Here you can find some information about T+A IR remote codes:

https://www.ta-hifi.de/en/support/support-accessories/support-programmable-remote-controls/

 

You can use the above link as a starting point and check if your programmable remote is able to generate these codes.

 

The discrete codes from this list T+A IR Codes will work for the 200 series - even though this is not mentioned in the document.

 

If you have any questions or need help, please let me know.