M.2 NVMe SSD for OS

[lmitche]

40 minutes ago, phusis said:

Why would the Optane be exclusive to these traits?

Two reasons:

 

1) The Optane drives are not made from silicon rather an amorphous material that was invented by the same fellow that invented the Nickel Metal Hydride batteries used in hybrid cars. His name is Stanford R. Ovshinsky.

 

2) Optane drives random write memory speed and latency is faster than anything else out there. Our music players are constantly spitting out data writes in small block sizes that Optane excels at.

 

I recently tested new silicon nvme drives from Samsung and Intel and Optane beats them hands down.

 

Larry

[lmitche]

8 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

Problem is you really can't compare since it is a proprietary system, for the Intel Optane. They are smaller and cost WAY more.

 

https://www.pcgamer.com/intel-optane-memory-everything-you-need-to-know/

 

Very informative.

 

AMD's StoreAMI software will do the exact same thing.

 

 

The Optane implementations used here and by Taiko Audio do not use the hard disk caching ability of Optane drives. The Optane is only used as an SSD storing OS and metadata files. Indeed over here AMD processors are used with Optane drives. 

 

Intel Caching and AMD StoreAMI are irrelevant functions that would degrade SQ.

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

Prove it. I don't think so. People keep treating digital music files like they are made of special magic fairy dust. if you have issues with music files, you will have issues with other digital files. Noise affects them also, especially pictures and videos.

Hmmm, who mentioned music files? Not me.

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, phusis said:

 

So, "1)" leads to "2)," or how does '1)' have significance in itself from the perspective of sound?

 

Random write memory speeds for the Kingston A2000 is favorably tested:
 

https://www.expertreviews.co.uk/kingston/1411219/kingston-a2000-review

 

 

I might add: is that a fact? What's entailed more specifically in "beats them hands down"?

More transparency, space and a denser image are the result of switching to an Optane drive for the OS and metadata storage for music players. Both generate numerous disk writes during playback.

 

It is the noise (RFI/EMI) generated by the silicon SSDs during write processes that is the problem here, not bit errors.

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, phusis said:

And btw.: I'm not "knocking" the Intel optane's. I'm just interested in the reasons for their sonic prowess, and whether someone has investigated into this more thoroughly. It all started out with the possible sonic traits implementing M.2 NVMe SSD's for OS storage, and it turned into "the Optane's." I'm just wondering why..

Hi Phisus,

 

Maybe it's time for you to run the experiment yourself.  32gb Optane drives are available on Amazon for $76 this morning. Please let us know what you observe.

 

Your questions here have been answered in good faith. We are empiricists here, basing our judgements on observations made with our ears. At times we can only conjecture about why something sounds best.

 

We know from benchmarks that Optane storage performs better than other technologies in key areas that impact SQ. If you want more objective measures of why Optane sounds best please take it to the appropriate forum.

 

Good luck with that.

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

 

 

 

[lmitche]

On 9/18/2020 at 10:54 AM, phusis said:

What's the thought on using M.2 NVMe SSD's as music storage? 

Hi Mikael,

 

The Intel 660P NVME sticks are successfully used by many for music storage. While they are much noisier than Optane for write intensive OS and player hosting duties, for read-only music playback they sound great. This is likely due to the use of large SLC caches on the drive itself.

 

Larry

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

My thoughts on Intel Optane.

 

I was considering trying out Intel Optane. Due to positive test reports regarding short access times, I took a closer look at the Intel® Optane ™ SSD 905P Series. I read the installation guide and was shocked.

 

Complexity of the setting

These are settings in the BIOS and Windows that must be made in a certain sequence. And this several times. It can be done, but I prefer simple solutions.

 

SATA controller

I deactivated the SATA controller in the Audio PC. In the sense of, the fewer controllers are active, the less it can influence the SQ. For Intel Optane, the SATA controller mode "Intel® Optane ™ SSD 905P Series ..." must be activated.

 

Hardware

Not every motherboard and not every CPU supports Intel Optane. The correct M.2 slot must be selected so that Intel Optane is recognized.

 

Target

This is where the system matters. I have implemented a dual PC system for myself. The actual Audio PC has nothing more to do than upsampling with the HQPlayer and rendering the data. The music files are either streamed from Qobuz or come from the NAS. How would Intel Optane benefit me?

 

- A faster system start? For me it is not important whether my system is ready to go in 30 seconds or 60 seconds.

- For the HQPlayer? The M.2 Samsung Evo SSD C drive obviously has little to do. See image.

 

 

Conclusion

I don't doubt that Intel Optane can bring advantages to Audio PCs that have their music files there. With a dual PC system like mine, it doesn't seem to be important in the Audio PC. Am I making a mistake? Other thoughts are welcome.

StreamFidelity,

 

What is the point of posting a picture of task manager showing a Samsung drive in a thread about Optane drives? Is the D: drive above an Optane drive? If so, you have made a mistake.

 

The point of the Optane drive is to use it as a straight SSD (not a cache for a hard disk). In WIndows terms use it as the C: drive.   There is no need for bios adjustments, or driver installations. In SSD mode it works in any NVME slot on all Intel and AMD motherboards tried here. Just make it your boot drive for the OS and run the music playback app from the same drive. While it can hold music files, it is best to use another drive for music files to separate the traffic and data paths. 

 

 

[lmitche]

46 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

1. I meant, "I've thought about it ..." In fact, I've never tried it.

2. This is a thread about "M.2 NVMe SSD for OS" That with Optane came up in the discussion and I gave my thoughts on it.

 

 

My speech! Since my music files are outside of the audio PC (either in the www at Qobuz or on my NAS) Optane couldn't help me. The task manager should show that in my system data on SSDs is barely read or written. Instead, what HQPlayer need is already in RAM. Optane cannot be any faster. 😉

OK, so you seem to have answered your own questions about the Optane drive without trying one.  I don't know what more I can do to help you.

 

Good luck,

 

Larry

[lmitche]

8 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

This is a point for you. I have now tested it with:

Intel® Optane™ Memory M10 Series 64GB, M.2 80mm PCIe 3.0, 20nm, 3D XPoint™

 

 

That's all right.

 

 

Correct, see M.2 slot in ASUS Board with the blue Intel Optane SSD.

 

 

Cloning the boot drive on Intel Optane went smoothly. The operating system (Win 10 Pro) and HQPlayer started smoothly.

 

 

That is my experience too. I was streaming music from the NAS and Qobuz. Here's a closer look at Intel Optane SSD activity. When the HQPlayer is started, read and write activities take place.

 

 

But after about 5 minutes there are no more SSD activities because everything is in RAM.

 

 

 

Contrary to my noticed, I hear a slight improvement in the SQ! How can that be?

 

Is it because of the very low latencies?
Latency - Read 7 µs
Latency - Write 18 µs

 

I consider low latencies to be one of the keys to digital audio playback. Optane can show its advantages here.

 

 

Or is it the 3D XPoint storage? Compared to the NAND memory, the durability is 10 times longer due to the gentler type of memory. Bit-precise addressing can take place with 3D XPoint. NAND must read page by page (read-modify-write cycle). Source: Intel Optane SSD 900P 280 GB with 3D XPoint storage in the test

 

Maybe I am wrong. But it just sounds good. The Intel Optane SSD remains in it for now. @lmitche Thanks 👍

 

 

I am delighted to see you tested the Optane. Despite using the Optane as a boot drive for years, I did regression with non-Optane Intel and Samsung drives a few weeks ago and the Optane presented a richer, more dense image. It was a relief to hear the SQ return after the Optane was re-installed.

 

From here you may want to listen with Samsung drive removed. You could use a streaming service (Tidal or Qobux) or move a few files to the Optane. Either way, this is an easy test to do and you may be surprised at the difference.

 

Also consider moving the Optane between various M.2 slots. Closer to the CPU and/or a CPU direct slot can impact SQ.

[lmitche]

4 minutes ago, lmitche said:

I am delighted to see you tested the Optane. Despite using the Optane as a boot drive for years, I did regression with non-Optane Intel and Samsung drives a few weeks ago and the Optane presented a richer, more dense image. It was a relief to hear the SQ return after the Optane was re-installed.

 

From here you may want to listen with Samsung drive removed. You could use a streaming service (Tidal or Qobux) or move a few files to the Optane. Either way, this is an easy test to do and you may be surprised at the difference.

 

Also consider moving the Optane between various M.2 slots. Closer to the CPU and/or a CPU direct slot can impact SQ.

Looking at the picture above, my guess is that you are using an Asus ROG MAXIMUS XI FORMULA motherboard. That board has two M.2 slots connected to the PCH. You could try an external M.2 PCIE adapter board to avoid the 4 lane PCH connection. Your board can handle 3 simultaneous M.2 drives operating in the 4 m.2 slot ASUS Hyper M.2 PCIE adapter card.

 

https://www.asus.com/support/FAQ/1037507/

 

There are dual m.2 PCIE m.2 low profile adapter cards from Supermicro that may be a better fit for your case.

 

Remember to enable PCIE bifurcation in the bios to get this working.

[lmitche]

9 hours ago, R1200CL said:

@lmitche

 

Would an Optane in a SonicTransporter make a difference?

I have an early i5 version. 
 

Since I’m using Roon, would a NUC with Optane and ROCK likely to be a good option. (I have a NUC available). 
 

I’m storing my music on a Qnap TS-453 Pro, using SSD’s. 
 

What is your best suggestion based on my HW in order to test out Optane?
 

 

 

 

I don't know the details of the SonicTransporter design. If it is a standard Intel machine with an M.2 slot you are likely to gain a SQ advantage with an Optane boot drive. 

 

Yes, NUCs with a M.2 port benefit from an boot Optane boot drive.

[lmitche]

3 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

This will work with ROCK ?

So it doesn’t matter so much where music is stored ?

 

I think there exist Optane M.2 cards that can act as combined RAM and SSD. Is that version recommended ? Or just use normal RAM ?

 

Do you know if there exists NUC boards with SFP / SFP+ interfaces ?

(I suppose this can also be added into a PCI slot). 
 

I happen to have this housing available, so basically I would be looking for a NUC board that supports ROCK, as I suppose it’s better to use instead of Windows.

 

What is best considered NUC board today for ROCK ?

Any I7 NUC board ?

 

I was hoping one 12V? (Like Paul Hynes SR4T) power supply would be enough, but open to suggestions if more complex solutions is the advice. 

 

 

 

Hi R1200CL,

 

I don't know much about Rock. I run a customized version of Audiolinux here.

 

There are new RAM and SSD versions of Optane. I haven't tried them.

 

I don't know of any NUCs with SFP ports.

 

I would expect most NUCS to work well powered by the 12Volt PH SR4.

 

Larry