DAC Manufacturer Aversion To External DSP

[R1200CL]

I find this DAC discussion very interesting. 
 

Should manufacturers more use ethernet as signal in ?

What’s the benefits over USB as an example.  It seems to me USB creates support issues, will use of Ethernet remove those issues as one example ?

 

Will HMDI as transfer technology be a better option than USB ?

Or shouldn’t manufacturers at least incorporate a HMDI interface from your TV or player. 
 

What DAC technology is best for DSD input ?

 

Shouldn't a DAC with no internal up sampling and “perfect” clocks and power sound totally neutral, and the challenge for designer be how good they are to defeat jitter. (And SQ signature be decided by HQPlayer).

 

Will Ethernet to SPDIF converters be something that will better keep many of us using our old DAC with no USB interface, or poor usb interface be something to consider. And will this device still need support for RAAT and NAA, which I guess also mean a simple web interface, unless one create one Ethernet input (fiber) for each option ? (Or a simple switch to select).

 

Or could we place RAAT and NAA inside NUC, SonicTransporter, or whatever PC in use for the streaming purposes (if the DAC accepts Ethernet) ?

 

I wouldn’t mind if John S add some input here, but I suppose Superdad also can tell us something about an ideal technology for streaming and DAC’s. Maybe we need totally new standards ?

 

I think Barrows has some good ideas, but I understand from another tread he also is very keen on remove any preamp and go direct DAC to amps. How will this “requirement” affect SQ ? And cost ?

 

Am I correct that there is a consensus that volume control done right, now can be handled in the digital processing ?  And maybe even better than most preamps ? Hence one should assume preamplifier at least for music streaming isn’t needed. But maybe still for other digital interfaces connected to your DAC ?
 

 

 

[R1200CL]

3 minutes ago, barrows said:

Source and cable still matters, why would it not?  This is no indication of there being anything "wrong" with USB as an interface. In fact, USB is the best digital interface we currently have for audio, yes, some USB inputs are better than others, as is the case with any input.

SPDIF: cables matter

Analog inputs: cables matter

Ethernet inputs: apparently, cables matter

 

just like any input, it can be done well, or not, thta is up the engineering.  But there is nothing inherently wrong with USB.

Well, it seems USB is more sensitive to cable, reading here at AS.

However maybe John S can develop a optical USB interface 😀

 

So far we haven’t started comparing SQ in fiber cables, and I hope we never will. I understand SFP devices are under discussion. I’m not sure how much that matters or single mode vs multimode. 
 

Ethernet seems like a better option than USB in order to avoid these cable discussions, and it already have a good standard for fiber, and remove the cable issues. 
 

Anyway, the manufacturers could make a module based DAC, so one could choose preferred interfaces. 

[R1200CL]

2 minutes ago, barrows said:

This does, however, require a very sophisticated onboard Ethernet receiver implementation and isolation.

Well we all know who has that cutting edge technology available already. We just have to wait what spin off effects will come out off that 😀

 

[R1200CL]

10 minutes ago, barrows said:

If i was developing the proposed DAC for commercial release, it would have a modular input section, and the customer could choose between optical ethernet and USB inputs at purchase.  The requirements would be to support up to DSD 1024 and for ethernet, DLNA, RAAT, and NAA.

What is your best guess cost estimate for such DAC ? (I think XLR out).

HW cost. (As engineering may be harder to predict). What is your preferred DAC chip ?

 

Can we at AS challenge some DAC manufacturers to build a DAC according to such specs ?

Maybe some sort of group buy or crow founding ?

[R1200CL]

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/
 

I wonder this manufacturer will add Ethernet interface. Maybe someone can email him ?

 

I suppose Tim at Kitsune could be asked same question ?

 

[R1200CL]

A standard or preferred DAC interface for external DSP is important. 
 

Both USB and HMDI requires the noisy processing computer close to the DAC. 
It’s my understanding we like to have that PC far away from our DAC. 
 

John S design with Sonore’s Redus is one of few products that solves this. 
 

It seems quite clear to me that only Ethernet with fiber can be the future way for DAC manufacturers that like to allow for external DSP. 

 

I would still like to understand why HMDI shouldn’t be implemented as an interface for DACs, as I like my DAC to be used in conjunction with TV or TV boxes. I would prefer HMDI in and out, so after my DAC has collected sound, the signal can go to TV. (Or even another multichannel DAC). 

Also it’s my understanding that HMDI will allow for SACD transports.

 

Can the SACD be up sampled in the external PC, and signal sent over Ethernet?

(Not ripping, but you insert it in the drive of your PC, assuming there is SACD drives on the marked). 

[R1200CL]

Miska

 

Is it the up sampling itself that requires most power in HQPlayer ?
 

Could one think a model, where Qobuz or similar had a library with DSD 512 (or 1024), and your filters was applied locally in either a DAC or less power hungry PC ?

 

My other idea is that in theory, one should be able to rent space (and processing power) in a data center, add Roon and HQPlayer, and use VPN technology to your home. A CAPS seems to be quite expensive, so maybe price won’t stopping you from such approach. 

Cloud based HQPlayer and Roon. Will it ever happen 😀

It’s doable. I hope someone will try. Your next project Chris ?

 

What do people think about having ones music files,  Roon, and HQPlayer available through a (private) cloud service ?

Won’t this also direct DAC manufacturers in the direction we (or at least this tread) like to see ?

[R1200CL]

15 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

They really aren't that expensive if you shop around. 

We should get an answer to that in CAPS twenty part two 😀

 

Part one wasn’t cheap, so .....

[R1200CL]

18 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Perhaps a better way is to have HQPlayer create the files in an offline mode

@Miska

This isn’t possible today or ?

[R1200CL]

Maybe save the server discussion and HQPlayer requirements to CAPS Twenty part 2, or continue on the HQPlayer  tread 😀

[R1200CL]

On 7/10/2020 at 4:03 PM, barrows said:

HDMI sucks for audio,

 

No doubt that was the case at some point, but maybe good engineering and better clocks etc has overcome some of the problems. Maybe there will be an HMDIregen 😀

HMDI should probably be an option in an idealistic build DAC, as not everybody needs it. 

 

C. Hanson from 2010
https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/pcaudio/82566/hdmi-has-the-highest-jitter-of-any-interface
 

Amir with interesting measurements:

https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/a-deep-dive-into-hdmi-audio-performance.56/

(Chris, are you blocking links to specific sites) ?
 

http://www.oppodigital.co.uk/Understanding-the-HDMI-Audio-Jitter-Reduction-Circuit-OPPO-UDP-205.html
 

Maybe HMDI discussion can continue here:

 

I wish some DAC manufacturers could enter this tread, as Chris is addressing them, but I guess it won’t happen.

 

But I’m learning at least what technology seems to be good, some input on which manufacturers that may have good product. 
 

It also seems quite clear that any DSP, as long as done right is good for SQ. (Including RC). 

 

I’m also wondering if there some dark forces out there that prevents good engineers/engineering/formats/etc to be fully developed. But that can be a topic for a new tread. 
 

[R1200CL]

47 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

that is 100% not true, - in any way whatsover....

 

there are at least 5 to 10 products that one can purchase right now that make that statement almost silly...

Can you give at least 3 examples. I like to see DSD 512. But u choose. 
 

Or do you mean we can have a 20 meter usb or HMDI cable ?

 

Or do you say it’s ok to have a PC doing DSD 512 via usb next to your audio system isn’t problematic. 
 

Fell free to include DSD 512 or 1024 over HMDI 😀

[R1200CL]

34 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

$2K Schiit DACs to $2K Audio Aero Prima's with a Singxer SU-1 from 20 years ago

Do you actually know what a Singxer SU-1 is ?

 

I don’t know what a APL is. How old is it ? Does it have filters, or do it only up sample ?

How do you use it ?

[R1200CL]

1 minute ago, Albrecht said:

ICron USB to TCP/IP converters.

 

Micro/ultra/optical Rendu

 

SotM SMS 200 series...

 

Rednet Ravenna

 

Lumin...

 

NAS to Rendu or SoTM series.

 

Gustard, Audiophelio, Berkeley, SingXer, Denafrips, etc USB to i2s converters....

That is not DSD up sampling devices. We must misunderstand each other. 

[R1200CL]

12 hours ago, Albrecht said:

"Do you actually know what a Singxer SU-1 is ?"

 

I've had one in my system for more than 3 years. Currently I use the Gustard U-16 with a Cardas USB cable from my ultra-Rendu... (Debating going to an Audio-GD i20 at 5 times the price, - but not sure). 

 

Sounds GRREAAAAT....  

 

I happen also to use a SU-1. (Modified). And it’s not 20 years old 😂. I guess the age was the DAC. It seems we both doesn’t have a DAC with USB interface. Correct ?

I use a Theta Generation Vlll (PCM 24/192 max). 
 

What DAC are you using, and why would you even consider the Audio-GD i20 ?

 

I also use a SonicTransporter with HQPlayer.

If you’re only using PCM, you can probably install HQPlayer in your NAS. At least if it’s a QNAP. Are you using Roon ? And if yes, where is it installed, or what player are you using ?

[R1200CL]

@Albrecht

 I found your DAC 😀

 

 

Which lead me to 

Maybe APL will produce a product with fiber Ethernet in ?

Not sure if APL DAC’s accepts DSD 512. 

 

[R1200CL]

I’ve just noticed APL has its own streamer condensed from Auralic. 
https://aplhifi.com/products/digital-3/dnp-sr/#1588695658168-2f4a1e86-5773

 

APL also seems to have a special output (i2s ?) to only be used with their DAC’s. 

[R1200CL]

Hi @Bimmer100

I know you don’t design your DAC’s, but I expect you have a close dialogue with the designer. 
Isn’t the Spring DAC actually doing up to DSD 1024 without any internal processing (filters and modulators) ?

So your DAC’s should fit perfectly into what Chris like to see. 
(He should probably even ask to review a Holo DAC when he’s finished with his Caps part two. Maybe compare it against T+A) 😀

Do you see a cheaper version with only DC in and no PCM as a possibility ?

 

How do you see the possibility to implement an Ethernet interface into your DAC’s ?

In post #11 Barrows have some suggestions about output stage in general as he like to bypass the need of a preamp and go directly to amplifiers. Something under consideration ?