Misleading Measurements

[sandyk]

8 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Like the fact that files names Alex used telegraphed the expected results? 

 

🦄

 I made no effort to conceal the origins, which do not say how they should sound ,as the differences should even be blindingly obvious to people like you !

They certainly are NOT subtle to anyone with half decent equipment and hearing.

Did you even listen to them ?

[sandyk]

22 minutes ago, sandyk said:

It should be, because it's a perfect example of MISLEADING MEASUREMENTS.

 

You appear to have a closed mind where only Measurements matter, just like most ASR members. 

 I will now exit this pointless thread before somebody complains.

 

 If they let me , without further attacks on my , or Frank's credibility.

All people need to do is LOOK and LISTEN to the supplied "bit perfect" copies of the original YouTube video.

Is that so hard ?

[sandyk]

18 minutes ago, manueljenkin said:

As expected @pkane2001 has conveniently ignored all the valid points against asr I've mentioned here.

Yes, and incidentally, Teresa should also be able to check these supplied files out for herself directly from the DropBox player WITHOUT needing to download them and use up her communal bandwidth, as can our K1W1 member.   

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6ak9tyqrpglq1w9/Tyros 3 - The Power Of Love (Instrumental)HF.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a8koifix231idw3/Tyros 3 - The Power Of Love (Instrumental)LF.mp4?dl=0

[sandyk]

6 minutes ago, Teresa said:

I hate comparing stuff, and I will never compare anything again unless I have to replace broken or dead equipment. And I dread that happening.

That's a shame as you were a very good Audio Reviewer before all this. 

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, John Dyson said:

The whole thing about 'expectation bias' or simple dishonesty/manipulation can always be operative.   Double blind tests can be trusted, if done correctly.   Even results from people with integrity and some discipline cannot be trusted -- because it is easy for the mind/opinion to interfere.

 That applies equally to both  the Subjective and Objective sides. 😜

 

 IF Kumakuma had bothered to actually read the original thread and discussions with Frank he would have seen that it was simply a reply/demonstration  from me about the effects of the PSU area  , where he thought that a shitload of low value bypass capacitors in the PSU area of a PC/Server belonging to Cappo ensured a higher sound quality. I simply demonstrated this using different types of capacitors in the capacitance multiplier section of a John Linsley Hood designed PSU add-on powering a USB memory stick. It was easier to use the same original file to do this, than compare 2 different recordings. 

I believe that I made my point with Frank .

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Sorta "telling", Alex, that not a single other person has given you feedback on this ... whichever way they hear it, 😉 ...

 Yes. I wonder how many had an anonymous listen  and weren't game to report back what they heard on ideological grounds

The majority of the Objective mob simply don't want to know, because it would throw into doubt many of the other things they claim , based solely on measurements. It would open up a big can of worms.

As an I.T. person, you had every right to be sceptical, just as 2 of my Sydney E.E. friends did originally too,  before hearing the differences for themselves from my supplied USB memory stick without me being present to influence them. (Sunday, January 19, 2014)

 The differences aren't subtle , are they ?  

[sandyk]

The funny thing here is that Frank can easily hear the differences with his laptop. What are you guys using, laptops, perhaps a stock standard Mac Mini  ?

 Suck on this one replacing LF version.

If you can't hear the difference with this one compared with HF version, then you have MAJOR problems.

Perhaps your brain won't let you ?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gb1l2s9i2bcnpl3/Tyros 3 - The Power Of Love (Instrumental)LF2.mp4?dl=0

P.S.

The LF end on this one sounds greatly exaggerated, even when using the mediocre Dropbox player..

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

I listened to them and didn't hear any differences between them.

As expected . You probably can't even see the difference in brightness and sharpness between them right from the start either. 

[sandyk]

8 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

Let me summarize the 43 pages of this thread for you, so you don't have to keep repeating it:

 

ASR sucks, we don't know everything, measurements are wrong because we hear things, and noise hidden in two, exactly the same digital files is different because one was recorded with an LPS and the other with a switching supply. Got it. Carry on. 

 As usual, you got it very wrong, especially the last part as there were no changes to the types of PSUs used .

 You got it right about ASR though, as you obviously are more of a fanatic regarding measurements than the enjoyment of actually listening to the music, or further improving your equipment to increase the enjoyment you get from well recorded music.  After all, this IS an Audiophile forum .

[sandyk]

11 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Alex, stop the personal attacks. You don't know what I'm fanatic about, and it's certainly not measurements.

 

It's not a personal attack. It's an observation. Otherwise , why have you gone to the trouble of designing  the S/W linked to in your signature ?

 BTW, I wasn't even going to post any further replies in this thread unless specifically directed at me., which you did in your  provocative post summing up the thread. 

 Surely you must have known that either Manuel or myself would reply in the manner that we did ?

[sandyk]

23 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

But of course it is! You just told me I don't like or enjoy music and that I don't belong on an Audiophile forum.

 

We are worlds removed, Alex, and not just geographically. Don't try to read anything into what I do or why I do it, you'll be wrong. 

 

 I didn't say that you don't like or enjoy music, but you appear to get a great deal more enjoyment out of measurements of equipment than listening to music with them. In my case, I am fanatical about extracting as much as possible out of my equipment in order to keep enjoying music longer due to my advanced age (approaching 82) and hearing damage.

To do this, I end up listening to a lot more music than  many do, and perhaps get to enjoy it more too.

 

 Incidentally, even Archimago will tell you that people with hearing damage are sometimes able to hear things that others are unable to, just as J.D. found not so long back when picking up on actual distortion much more when he had a Eustachian tube blockage.

EDITED .

[sandyk]

45 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Which could all add up to changing what I was hearing ... to be blunt, I don't want this sort of 'complexity' in the mix - too many complications already; I want this one to be at at the bottom of the pile ... sorry about that, Alex 🙂.

This does not explain away the differences you reported hearing previously between ALL 3 versions of the TOTO-Africa file.

 

Perhaps capturing streaming on your laptop is not going to be as good a listening experience as local music playing, although if your Internet is now fast enough, it will give you a chance to listen to more variety and help guide your music purchasing habits.   

 

[sandyk]

12 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

@sandyk You’ve been reported for posting subjective stuff in the objective forum. Please stop. 

Sure thing Chris

 Like most members here I would love to see some real Objective reports about Misleading Measurements in this thread that you started.

The only way to do this appears to be to present actual measurements that were later shown to be misleading by other measurements or DBTs.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, John Dyson said:

I strongly counsel that using subjectivism with double checks and controls should be secondary.   Objective methods with double checks and controls (e.g. controlled experiments) should be the first choice to avoid wasting time

 It hasn't always worked out that way in your PM group though, has it ? 😉

I will leave it at that, and not reply further, as we are so far off topic already. with virtually no poster  giving OBJECTIVE illustrations , whether by later refuting measurements or the results of DBT sessions that showed the measurements in the example given were misleading instead of the philosophical discussions  currently  .

 

 

  

[sandyk]

50 minutes ago, opus101 said:

 

Quite the opposite (though I am assuming 'review' here simply means 'reporting one's subjective observations') - the checking function historically was always the role of the priesthood. 'Go, show yourself to the priests' was said by Jesus after a healing for example.

I agree, and John may not be aware that you are also well qualified technically, not just anotherSubjective type.

[sandyk]

32 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Yawn. Boring, Frank! Got anything interesting to share? Like some objective evidence that cable lifters produce audible differences, perhaps?

 

 

Where does that  fall into the topic of Misleading Measurements when there hasn't been any posted or linked to ? 

[sandyk]

18 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

I got one, eh, two. They do make a very nice audible difference. Will arc weld all day long into a short. Made by Nelson Pass.

 

 Please stick to the topic of the thread as you expect others to do.

I am genuinely interested to read about any measurements that were found to be misleading, and were confirmed by more recent measurements or DBT sessions to do so.

[sandyk]

5 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

But of course! Fully tested and measured, mostly by me.

 What a joke. 🤣

That's why so many electronic devices have this disclaimer in their handbooks.

Very few manufacturers are willing to claim total immunity for their products, let alone any measured by you or anyone from ASR

[sandyk]

22 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

I don’t measure for ‘total immunity’. I measure for my own use, in my own house, for my normal application.

 I don't care how thorough people think their measurements are in this respect, as not all interference results in obvious audible degradation. It may come down in some cases to a diminished S/N in another device as  a result of this interference.

Even a nearby DTV in Standby mode can cause this to nearby audio equipment. Note that I am not necessarily saying a marked degradation. I am basing this on personal experience using a very low noise Preamp and C.R.O.

[sandyk]

35 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Lifting off the carpet does what now? Are you talking about static electrical charge inducing audible noise in a speaker cable? Care to explain how this happens?

 Bear in mind too, that there may also be mains wiring directly underneath the floor where the speaker leads lay, which may induce noise into them. With the prolification of SMPS devices these days, there is also the slight  possibility that RF/EMI from them may get back into the negative feedback area of an amplifier via the speaker leads .

[sandyk]

35 minutes ago, vmartell22 said:

OF COURSE, things escape the testers, or maybe devices are not tested at all. Or the test plan is badly designed. Or the device  is shoddily built. Or there is a manufacturing QC problem.  But that does not mean we should discard formal measurements and go by ear. 

 

v

 

 

Nobody here is suggesting that we should.

[sandyk]

If measurements were the "be all, end all" there would be no need to make further improvements other than cosmetic, or replacement units due to old age .

You guys keep forgetting that virtually  everything designed by engineers is made for the Consumer/end user who will make a Subjective  evaluation of just how good the original engineering actually was,

( unless perhaps they are ASR members 😜) and choose another product from a different manufacturer or designer if the product doesn't perform as well as claimed, or is found to  be unreliable. 

[sandyk]

30 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

 we have heard tales from the dark side of neighbors welding, and its effects on the "rig."

 

...and @sandyk I agree that manufacturers assume consumers will make their decisions based on subjective evaluation. You and a few others here have the kung-fu to measure a device to see if it

matches the spec sheet, and act accordingly. 

 I have seen the effects of this on DTV reception from a workshop a couple of hundred metres away at a previous address , but it wasn't audible through my system where I have gone to a lot of trouble with earthing and PSU areas.