Objective-Fi Optical Networking & SFPs

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8 hours ago, cjf said:

I'm clearly missing why it hasn't caught on yet

 

From my POV:

 

1. It doesn't make a SQ difference

2. It adds unnecessary cost

3. It adds unnecessary complexity

4. Everyone knows what an RJ45 Ethernet cable is

5. WiFi offers just as much isolation while providing more than enough throughput on 5G / 80VHT

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7 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

That’s a great topic for another thread. 
 

WiFi devices that let the user control the channel width are great. Heck, my UniFi stuff goes to VHT160, but I have nothing that can use that. VHT80 is great as long as the environment is great. 

VHT 80 is recommended for Greenfield installs. Especially if you can use DFS channels.

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2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

DFS will stop working in the presence of radar though correct?

Correct,  it will channel hunt and hop. But you should be able to see DFS alerts in the controller.

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1 minute ago, kennyb123 said:

 

Per Chris' post:  "I'd like to use real science and a real scientific approach in this one. This means, we may have a belief one way or the other, but we should go into this with an open mind and follow the available objective evidence."  Can you provide any objective evidence?

 

Sure. Would you take a ADC capture of a recording where I swap out cables during playback?

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48 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

That won't address the SFP question though. 

 

Why wouldn't it? You can only hear a difference if the output of a DAC is altered. I'm offering a way, just like Alpha Audio on YouTube did when they tried six different Ethernet Cables.

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55 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

@ray-dude Thus far the subjective evidence seems to back this.  I'd love to understand why.

 

This is the objective-fi sub-forum.

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@kennyb123 What objective data would you accept?

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Just now, kennyb123 said:

 

Yes it is.  Hoping someone is able to provide some objective insight.

 

Ok. so if I spin up my ADC, connect my DAC to it's MIC inputs, and capture 1Khz with both SFP+ and make available for download would you evaluate those?

 

If current circumstances didn't prohibit it: If I came out to you on you're setup with my playback computer with my dual SFP+ Solar Flare card and did this with you blind, would you evaluate that way?

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7 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

And that was the silliest thing I ever saw. They (and you via your extracting the audio from the video) were expecting comparison of Ethernet cables to be valid via microphone recording through some unknown ADC, then encoded/compressed into a YouTube video. Unbelievable! 

 

I didn't make those rules. But the comments on that video read just about the same as the comments for your eR. So are they wrong? Why do you get to sit in judgement?

 

All the sudden your technical understanding is acceptable why ADC into a Mic, transcoded over to AAC 32/44.1 on YT is a problem. But I point out the same issues with your eR and my technical understanding isn't. You've got a brass set of em', I'll give you that.

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Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

You would need to switch SFPs if the hypothesis is that SFPs sound different. 

 

Solar Flare adapter has an easy to use Teaming GUI. I can put an FS and Finisar SFP+ module in side by side and simply disconnect at the switch while music is playing.

 

Also Windows 10 features by default SMB multichannel if we want to dispense with teaming the NIC.

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5 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

We've gone round and round on conducting a proper test.  I'm sorry - but I have to ask you this:   what was your educational background?  You don't seem to be able to understand how to properly conduct experiments.  Nor do you seem to understand the need for experiments to be done properly.

 

Ok, let's put up a hypothetical:

 

You've just met a person that says they, from a standing position, can jump up and clear a 10' high bar.

 

Do you design an elaborate test or do you bring out a tape measure?

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I've a follow on question: What about my proposed testing rig is problematic? Chris asked a question, part of it would be how can we get a setup that would allow to test for this.

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Just now, kennyb123 said:

 

That you see this as analogous to the differences we are hearing is not at all surprising to me.  Your tests are constructed to take measurements without the necessary precision and you can't even see this.

Which tests? The ADC capture? If so why isn't it precise?

 

Human evaluation? Why don't you trust your ears?

Just now, kennyb123 said:

 

 Your approach would earn you an F and lots of laughs at any engineering school.

 

You want to know what would really get laughs at an engineering school? You're ability to hear differences between SFP+ modules.

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Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

That wouldn’t isolate a noise SFP 100%. 

 

Why not. We are unplugging the cable. We could instead unplug the adapter.

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8 minutes ago, ray-dude said:

FWIW, at the engineering schools I went to the reaction would have been "No way!  Let me hear that...  Huh...  Wow...  What the hell is going on?  Cool, let's try to figure this out!"  This is the exciting stuff!  I hope that is the spirit of this thread.

 

I've zero issue with that. I would even be willing, when this covid madness is over, set this up single blind and see you demonstrate this ability.

 

 

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Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

You would need to unplug the adapter. 

 

No problem. I do that all the time during my day job 🙂

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@ray-dude Which in your list is SFP capable? Are you using FMC converters to last leg it over RJE?

Audio System

Digital:

 

Taiko Audio SGM Extreme

Intel NUC w/ AudioLinux/Euphony (server and end point)
RasberryPi + HiFiBerry Amp+ + DietPi + RoonBridge (outdoor speakers)
RIP: Uptone Ether Regen
RIP: SOtM tX-USBultra special edition
RIP: SOtM tX-USBultra
RIP: Matrix Audio X-SPDIF2 w/ Lifatec TOSLINK cable
RIP: Uptone ISO Regen
RIP: Sonore MicroRendu 1.4 with SBooster BOTW P&P power supply (2 Channel + headphones)
RIP: Sonore Sonicorbiter SE with iFi power supply (2 Channel + headphones)

Mac Mini (stock)
Roon

Euphony

 

 

Sources:

 

Chord DAVE
Chord Hugo TT2
Chord Hugo2
RIP: Chord Hugo mScaler
RIP: Chord Blu2
RIP: Chord Mojo
RIP: Oppo HA-1
RIP: Schiit Jotunheim
RIP: Pono 

 

 

Analog: 

 

Voxativ 9.87's with AC-4D drivers

Voxativ Zeth's with AC-1.8 drivers

Omega Super Alnico Monitors

RIP: B&W 802d3
RIP: Benchmark AHB2 amp
RIP: Classe CT-2300 amp

 

 

Headphones:

 

Abyss AB-1266 Phi TC
Sennheiser HD-800 (w/ SR Mod)
MrSpeakers Aeon Flow (closed)
Noble Katanas (custom)
Sennheiser HD-580
RIP: Audio Zenith PMx2 v2
RIP: AudioQuest NightHawks
RIP: B&O H6
RIP: Focal Elear

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10 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

 

What could possibly go wrong? 🙄

 

I didn't know Mark still offered his mobile blind testing debunking service. IIRC it used to come with some kind of monetary incentive.

 

Yep my $4k to your $1K. It's amazing how quickly people can be fanned back from home plate.

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When I receive my Finisar Long Reach modules and 15 meter SM OS2 cabling what kind of testing do you want to see? Objective testing that is.

 

Do you want to see if 1KHz is affected? Do you want me to record at track into my ADC and swap cables? Do we want to consider a get together when appropriate?

 

I'm asking for what empirical, debiased, method is acceptable. I'm spending my own $$ to move this conversation along. What DAC? Would the Schiit Modius suffice with it's Unison USB UAC2 implementation? Would 24/192 suffice? If 24/192 then what tracks would you like?

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Just waiting on the Finisar for the client end to show up:

 

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12 minutes ago, cat6man said:

i don't want to derail the topic, but this seems to be related (at least to me)

 

what if we back up a bit.  forgetting for the moment sfp variations and if/how they are real, what about basic galvanic isolation?  do we agree that it is real and a good thing?  if so, how can it be measured?  has anyone done so?

 

Optical by it's nature is galvonically isolated by the fiber run. The thing some people want to put their head in the sand over, especially at 10G, is that the engineering standards for it even to work require incredibly low jitter. Then you have to consider that fully realized 10G is 1250MB / Second. That is 48MB every 1/60th of a second. That is, on average, a 16/44.1 PCM track in 1/30th of a second transferred to a system that would say have 256MB of buffer. 

 

The PRAT, airieness, extended highs, better slam? It's all out of buffer while that connection just sits there IDLE. 

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21 minutes ago, cat6man said:

 

guys, you really don't get my question (and i'm really not trying to be cryptic or difficult here)

 

i understand fiber is isolated.  replace the fiber with copper (not isolated).  what would i measure that would not be there with fiber? (i.e. the objective benefit of isolation if it exists)

 

measurement A (with copper, no isolation)

measurement B (with fiber, provides isolation)

 

A-B=benefit of isolation/fiber (assuming fiber isolation provides an objective measurable benefit)

 

so what would the 'measurement' procedure be?

 

Far as I'm concerned would be single or multi-tone test from DAC output into a very good ADC. 

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1 hour ago, kennyb123 said:

I think it’s important to point out that all fiber only isolates up to the receiver.  The FMC is a powered device that could leak noise back into the system.

 

At this point your only option is to win the lottery and hire a permanent live band. 

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Just now, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

I think before squandering money on a permanent live band, to be objective about it, you would need to run them through a very good ADC then DAC output into a very good ADC. Tested blind of course!🤷‍♂️

 

If I saw that many gremlins in a hobby I would pick a new hobby. This is getting absurd. 

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1 hour ago, kennyb123 said:

I was happy to see an objective sub-forum created as it used to be that so-called objectivists kept intruding on subjective conversations.  It shouldn’t now be that the so-called objectivists who remained do the same thing to the objective conversations.  
 

Do you have any objective proof that my assertion is false?

 

You can use the search function. Years ago I did ADC captures and posted a D/L link when it was still Computer Audiophile.  I was randomly swapping an Ethernet cable in/out during playback.

 

No one could tell when the change was made.