Building a DIY Music Server

[ASRMichael]

3 minutes ago, bit01 said:

Thumbs up to the Furutech FP-S55N mentioned above. I have tried it in JSSG and the FP-S032N on the PHD SR7T dual rail. They both offered similar performance but were better than a bunch of others I tried.

I believe the connectors (Wattgate EVOs) I have on the FP-S55N can be improved. I noticed a slightly better SQ when I removed the plastic backshells (please do not try this for safety reasons -your own and others in your home!! )

That’s my findings also. I used to use wattgate but then moved to Furutech NCF type connectors. Also my final connectors. There’s no need to change again. 
 

Add Furutech nano liquid once or twice a year. Job done. 

[ASRMichael]

59 minutes ago, Nenon said:

Just FYI - I prefer this over the Furutech nano liquid:

https://walkeraudio.com/product/quantum-silver-treatment-for-contacts/

 

In fact, I don't use the Furutech stuff anymore. 

 

Have done the Furutech FP-S55N and DPS-4.1. I prefered the DPS-4.1 but don't use it anymore. Both of these take a very long burn-in time. I have tried many other DIY cables, including the VHaudio (all flavors) and a bunch others. 

 

None of those DIY cables can compare to some of the commercial cables I am using like Sablon King/Prince, Audioquest Hurricane HC (1.5m specifically), High Fidelity Cables Professional Series (only for very low current devices), some of the higher end SR cables, etc. We do need to find a good DIY recipe for power cables. I have been looking for a while but haven't invested too much time/money/energy into that yet. 

@Nenon I appreciate they’re better cables out there, but at what cost? The Furutech ncf range is great quality for its price. Especially compared to some of over priced cables out there and mediocre at best. 
 

For £1000 I don’t think there’s a better cable set out there. 

[ASRMichael]

4 minutes ago, JonD said:

 

Deal on at the moment to get the full kit (incl SR Orange) for £900...

 

Bargain! 

[ASRMichael]

5 hours ago, Nenon said:

 

 

 

[ASRMichael]

How do you find out which PCIE ports are connected direct to CPU? 
 

My motherboard is Asus ROG Maximus X1 Formula Z390

 

My 2 cards are connected as follows

 

PCIEX16_1 — Pink Faun USB

 

PCIEX16_2 — JCAT Eth card

 

32GB Optane connected to M.2_1

[ASRMichael]

7 minutes ago, Nenon said:

Taiko's new USB card:

 

Source: https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-325#post-707914

 

No external power option? 

[ASRMichael]

On 1/13/2021 at 12:56 PM, StreamFidelity said:

 

The JCAT NET Card FEMTO is well behind Solarflare. I don't have the XE version.

 

 

Yes, I am aware of that. Solarflare is a Diva. 😄

 

I was happy to get it to run well. According to the manual, I have set the network card adapter to the lowest possible latency. Have a look at this: DSD 256 x 48. The sound is fantastic.

 

 

Can OnLoad also be set in Windows? As far as I know, this only works on Linux.

Hi, are you using a switch between your home network & solar? Or going direct? 

[ASRMichael]

Up & downs in this hobby! Yesterday was a day of downs! Dreaded code 00! Either CPU or MB! Tried all usual Bios recovery and other PSU. 
 

😢😢😢
 

On order Intel i9 1090k & Asus Rog XII extreme. Hopefully my 10a rail boots ok. 

[ASRMichael]

21 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Very interested in your experience transitioning to 10th gen i9. Why have you chosen not to go with 11th gen? Is it the lesser core count?

I read the 11th gen are really power hungry. I’m not 100% sure if my SJ 10a rail will power the 10th. I’m not using HQPlayer so normal running should be fine. If don’t boot I can configure bios using another PSU mind you. So was safest option I guess. 
 

Also got good deal on 10th, $130 cheaper than 11th. 
 

I’m sure with a bit more patience I would have researched a bit more about the 11th gen & Asus Extreme XIII. The XII I’ve ordered has 16 power stages & no doublers which should give a bump up. Let’s see. 
 

I’ll report back after few weeks run in! 
 

I’ve ordered a cheap MB to test if it was my CPU or MB that is causing the problem ! Peace of mind, hopefully it’s motherboard & I’ll have the i9 9900k for my normal desktop! 
 

My wife asked me? Did you break that deliberately so you could get something new!! & she walked away spouting boys toys & technology! 😂

[ASRMichael]

23 hours ago, Exocer said:

Dude you just gave me a good idea 🤣.

 

All jokes aside, interested in how this turns out. My desktop is still running an i7 2600k happily and this i9 will become my daily driver when I upgrade... Long overdue for a more powerful desktop CPU/Mobo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The plot thickens! I ordered the Asus Rog XII Extreme. I stupidly presumed because the i9 10090k has built in graphics then clearly compatible MB would have HDMI out! Answer No, has no video out whatsoever! mmmmm! Does anyone here know of any really really low power gpu cards that I could use to configure the Bios then remove? I have no idea if my SJ DC3 rail will even power a really low GPU? Arrrrrrrr! 
 

@Nenon maybe you know since you building SJ PSU’s? Or any other solution? 

[ASRMichael]

25 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

many (most?) mobo's will not boot without GPU, the MSI card referred a couple of posts higher is probably the lowest spec/TDP card around. You can always stick the GPU card on a PCIe 1x riser and power that via a regular switching PSU using one of the PCIe cables.

(mine is connected that way)

If only I had a PC PSU to power it!!! Maybe an old 512mb DDR2 card?

[ASRMichael]

19 hours ago, Exocer said:

 

What about Thunderbolt out to display port? Would that not work with the on-CPU graphics card?

I don’t see thunderbolt out. The thunderbolt card has an in. Any how ordered old DDR 2 card. Cheers all

[ASRMichael]

6 minutes ago, Exocer said:

I thought your USB-C ports would be sufficient as they appeared to be Thunderbolt compliant as well. I'm most likely incorrect on that assertion though 😁 (I thought there was an add-on card of sorts as well). 

Ok let me check! Loads of accessories so need to check. Cheers 

[ASRMichael]

3 hours ago, mikicasellas said:

Only Roon + Euphony Stylus Ep

 

Apparently these temps are with PC on idle, so yes

Your CPU usage is very very high for just using Roon + Euphony. That kind of CPU usage is more like HQPlayer running DSD128 with ECC filter. 
 

I do wonder if Euphony kernel has full support for i9 10th gen. i know Dev’s had issues. 

[ASRMichael]

4 hours ago, Topk said:

Impact of CPU on audio quality (going from 3700x to 3900x to 3950x in a fanless case)

 

I wanted to report my findings going from 3700x to 3950x in a H5 case.

 

Since I have HDplex H5 case I started with 3700x since it’s 65W TDP CPU (Asus rog strix b550-E MB and I can explain why vs. Gygabite Aorus master). It sounded good but for me was lacking some body and weight. I then upgraded to 3900x. No other change. Immediately the sound became much weightier, bigger, fuller, more inner detail, more calm and analogue, more realistic tone, more dense, much more depth, better soundstage.. etc. There were only upsides. If I had to put %, I would say sound quality increase of 50%. 

The reason I did this is because of reports here on the impact on CPU on SQ (eg Romaz) and because a friend who upgraded from i7 to 3900x reported a shocking increase in SQ in his system. I was able to make this 105W TDP work in H5 with undervolting done the right way (you can also use manual PBO, I might explain if people are interested)

 

Since I was able to make 3900x (12 cores) work in H5, I then decided to go for 3950x (16 cores but the same 105w TDP) and use same BIOS techniques, assuming more cores, more processing power = better/bigger sound.

 

Well guess what, the sound quality increased again. Same exact type of change in sound going to 3900x to 3950x. Bigger, denser, more musical content inside the sound, fuller, better tone, better depth, better decay... Very clear and obvious. Sounds a bit like you have a big amplifier upgrade, the sound is so much more powerful and real. In %, I would say plus 25% this time.

 

So my recommendation to anyone doing a DYI PC is start with the biggest CPU. I like AMD because they use 7nm technology and therefore generate less heat (even though they might have slightly higher latency than Intel).
 

I don’t know a way to create this sound without a bigger CPU, and at the back end, no USB card or LPS can re-create what’s not there in the first place...
 

Reported temp on the MB LCD is about 45-48. I do use a Keces P8 12v single rail on the CPU so YMMV. The 3950x is only drawing 2.1 amps on the P8 while playing music (no upsampling) which is less than 3700x and 3900x (boost etc all activated).

 

For context I have:

Asus MB B-550E MB (fanless chipset) 

AMD 3950x (16 cores and 70mb of cache)

Apacer 2666Mhz ECC RAM 8gb (latest model)

Euphony O/S

Jcat XE USB and Femto USB, El Fidelity USB, Pink Faun SPDIF bridge 

Jcat Net Femto

Uptone JS2 LPS

2 custom LPS with supercaps etc

KECES P8 dedicated to the CPU with FIS audio CPU cable

Uptone USB isoregen

Jcat Ethernet isolator

Etc

McIntosh and Harbeth 

I will post photos later on.

Thank you for the post. Can I ask what clock speed have you set? 
 

I’m now using Intel i9 10900k. I had to restrict to 8 cores, no matter if frequency was set at 3.5ghz or 5.3ghz it would not work on 10 cores. Doesn’t get past boot. 
 

Currently CPU is fully open on turbo 5.3ghz. Boots fine with 8 cores. 
 

I’m using 10a LPS to power it. 
 

My temps are 45-48c like yours. @ 5.3ghz. 
 

41c @ 3.7ghz

 

much higher than my i9 9900k. @ 5.0ghz idle was around 37c. 
 

What doesn’t help is the XII Extreme MB has a heatsink close to cpu, its bit higher than previous MB. As a result the H5 copper pipes just fit but are touching the MB heatsink. 
 

No listening tests as yet. Just powered it up, wait few days and will revert back. 

[ASRMichael]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

what software/OS are you running ? I too use i9-10900k with a dedicated SJ 10A rail and it works fine with AudioLinux 2.0 and Win 10Pro but NOT Euphony. With Euphony I had all sorts of problems. If you are using Euphony, try disabling Hyperthreading in order to use 10 cores. 

Hi

 

I’m using Euphony worked no problems. Using onboard LAN didn’t work but I use JCAT net anyway. 
 

I’m just glad back up & running. So I’ll try 10 cores again in few weeks. 
 

Actually playing music for a while (no upsampling) my temps are 65c at 5.3ghz. What are yours? 

[ASRMichael]

2 hours ago, Topk said:

First of all, 10900K is 125W TDP, that’s 30% above what HDplex recommends for H5. You have low temps but the 10900k does need power. It can pull up to 225W if I recall correctly.

 

Right now with 3950x, my CPU is un-throttled for speed within the limits of the core voltage which is set manually at a pretty high 1.25V (I’ll explain what I mean by that).

 

All the rest including Precision Boost Overdrive, Asus performance enhancement, CPU clock speed are all on Auto. Which means the CPU is free to boost frequency as needed (well

above 4 GHz) as long as core voltage is no more than 1.25V. And based on Linus Tech Tips tests and others, the 3950x runs around a very low 1V voltage under most conditions / benchmarking tests. Also, keep in mind music is not a CPU intensive task (without upsampling). It’s not like you’re running Cinebench R20 or Prime95.
 

To cut a long story short, my 3950x is pretty much running full speed in a fanless case....

 

On the other hand, the very powerful 10900K is rated 125W TDP which means it draws a lot of power. Intel was very smart in optimizing with thinner die but it’s still 14nm.
 

If I were you, I would first:

1) run all cores - it’s critical for sound quality

2) pick a decent clock speed - start with the stock speed and manually lock it (manual override in the BIOS). If needed you can decrease later on 

3) disable turbo boost (for now) - that can potentially put strain on your LPS 

4) Decrease CPU core voltage. Start with stock voltage and decrease in 0.25v increments, and check for stability 

 

Another way to do it is manually set TDP (if you can on Intel) to 95W or less and let the BIOS adjust everything else. 

Now - you mention you can’t go past boot. So a few more tips:
 

It could be because your CPU is boosting on the 10 cores and exceeds 10A of power usage during boot. In that case, the locked lower voltage might help. The lower fixed TDP might help. Or if you manually lock the power going to the CPU (PPT for AMD), max peak amperage (EDC for AMD) or max amperage (TDC), that should help too. Under AMD terminology:

 

- Package Power Tracking (“PPT”): The PPT threshold is the allowed socket power consumption permitted across the voltage rails supplying the socket. Applications with high thread counts, and/or “heavy” threads, can encounter PPT limits that can be alleviated with a raised PPT limit.

- Thermal Design Current (“TDC”): The maximum current (amps) that can be delivered by a specific motherboard’s voltage regulator configuration in thermally-constrained scenarios.

 

- Electrical Design Current (“EDC”): The maximum current (amps) that can be delivered by a specific motherboard’s voltage regulator configuration in a peak (“spike”) condition for a short period of time.

i don’t know the intel equivalents of the above but that could fix the issue

 

And I agree hyper threading should be disabled (for sound quality) if you’re not upsampling  but I don’t think it’s the root cause

 

I couldn’t boot in euphony (maybe like you if you use it too) and I could see on the Keces P8 the CPU pulling much more than 8A (which is the max for P8), probably boosting the CPU during boot. When I manually locked the voltage to 1.25V, the issue went away.

 

while you’re at it, disable spread spectrum as well since it measurably creates jitter. 

Thanks I’ll have a look! Expect a few private messages! 😂😂! Cheers appreciated

[ASRMichael]

23 hours ago, Topk said:

First of all, 10900K is 125W TDP, that’s 30% above what HDplex recommends for H5. You have low temps but the 10900k does need power. It can pull up to 225W if I recall correctly.

 

Right now with 3950x, my CPU is un-throttled for speed within the limits of the core voltage which is set manually at a pretty high 1.25V (I’ll explain what I mean by that).

 

All the rest including Precision Boost Overdrive, Asus performance enhancement, CPU clock speed are all on Auto. Which means the CPU is free to boost frequency as needed (well

above 4 GHz) as long as core voltage is no more than 1.25V. And based on Linus Tech Tips tests and others, the 3950x runs around a very low 1V voltage under most conditions / benchmarking tests. Also, keep in mind music is not a CPU intensive task (without upsampling). It’s not like you’re running Cinebench R20 or Prime95.
 

To cut a long story short, my 3950x is pretty much running full speed in a fanless case....

 

On the other hand, the very powerful 10900K is rated 125W TDP which means it draws a lot of power. Intel was very smart in optimizing with thinner die but it’s still 14nm.
 

If I were you, I would first:

1) run all cores - it’s critical for sound quality

2) pick a decent clock speed - start with the stock speed and manually lock it (manual override in the BIOS). If needed you can decrease later on 

3) disable turbo boost (for now) - that can potentially put strain on your LPS 

4) Decrease CPU core voltage. Start with stock voltage and decrease in 0.25v increments, and check for stability 

 

Another way to do it is manually set TDP (if you can on Intel) to 95W or less and let the BIOS adjust everything else. 

Now - you mention you can’t go past boot. So a few more tips:
 

It could be because your CPU is boosting on the 10 cores and exceeds 10A of power usage during boot. In that case, the locked lower voltage might help. The lower fixed TDP might help. Or if you manually lock the power going to the CPU (PPT for AMD), max peak amperage (EDC for AMD) or max amperage (TDC), that should help too. Under AMD terminology:

 

- Package Power Tracking (“PPT”): The PPT threshold is the allowed socket power consumption permitted across the voltage rails supplying the socket. Applications with high thread counts, and/or “heavy” threads, can encounter PPT limits that can be alleviated with a raised PPT limit.

- Thermal Design Current (“TDC”): The maximum current (amps) that can be delivered by a specific motherboard’s voltage regulator configuration in thermally-constrained scenarios.

 

- Electrical Design Current (“EDC”): The maximum current (amps) that can be delivered by a specific motherboard’s voltage regulator configuration in a peak (“spike”) condition for a short period of time.

i don’t know the intel equivalents of the above but that could fix the issue

 

And I agree hyper threading should be disabled (for sound quality) if you’re not upsampling  but I don’t think it’s the root cause

 

I couldn’t boot in euphony (maybe like you if you use it too) and I could see on the Keces P8 the CPU pulling much more than 8A (which is the max for P8), probably boosting the CPU during boot. When I manually locked the voltage to 1.25V, the issue went away.

 

while you’re at it, disable spread spectrum as well since it measurably creates jitter. 

Valuable information. Thank you. Now running 10 cores & turbo on set at 5.3

 

I set PSU setting. Long 110w & short bursts to 150w. 
 

Didn’t try under voltage. Maybe something to try later.

 

For now it’s a case of touch nothing & sit back with a pint or two! 
 

Cheers

[ASRMichael]

23 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Fantastic. Interested in any i9 9900k to 10900k comparisons you can provide.

At the moment the 10900k doesn’t sound anywhere as good. Probably needs few weeks to settle down! Also I’ve blown two SR orange fuses which doesn’t help. Another 2 on order. 
 

It’s certainly edgy at present, fuses? Break in? Different version of Euphony? & temps are much higher! 15c higher! 
 

At this stage I certainly wouldn’t be upgrading from i9 9900k to i9 10900k for SQ boost. Money better spent else where. 
 

I’m now concerned about the extra heat generated. I might have to remove my PANZERHOLZ Base. Or drill lots of holes. 
 

See base from previous build

 

 

[ASRMichael]

1 hour ago, Topk said:

Test of impact of power phases and 2 of the best AMD motherboard (MB) available on the market for sound quality

 

The general consensus is that Asus MBs sound better and are favored by most. 

 

However, I noticed 2 very interesting posts from Energy and Seetoyou on the Gigabyte Aorus Master MB. It’s the first MB on the market that has 16 direct power phases. Power phases/VRM down convert and regulate the 12V and provide power to the CPU and chipset. 
 

Therefore, the idea naturally came that the Aorus Master might be the best MB for audio PC since it has the best power phases (along with 6 layer PCB, 2 oz of copper etc.) therefore benefiting from robust, low ripple, stable, more dynamic power to the CPU. Also high quality VRMs overclock better, generate much less heat etc. This is entirely measurable and all proven via benchmarks. In fact the Aorus master is considered one of the best MB for the AMD Ryzen in the PC world.
 

We also all know the critical importance of power in general since music replay is just power transformed into sound.

 

And there’s quite a consensus that power (and cable) specifically to the CPU is critical to sound quality - and that CPU’s power comes from the VRM.

 

Therefore selecting a MB with the best power phases/VRM absolutely make sense (on paper) - all other things being equal (which they never completely are... but at least we can control for the variables as much as practically possible).

 

However that hypothesis is to be tested as rigorously as possible using only 1 variable change at a time.

Some key decision criteria for the MB, in my opinion:
 

1) Chipset fan: no chipset fan since those generate noise and vibration. For AMD, that excludes most X570 chipset (except Asus Dark Hero). Pretty much all B550 qualify.

 

2) Strong power phases/VRM: 

As noted by Seetoyou, per LTT AMD VRM tier list, best MB on paper WITHOUT chipset fans (using process of elimination) are Aorus Master, Asus dark hero, both tier 1 (300A), and Asus B550e, tier 2 (250A).

 

Test of Asus B550E vs Gigabyte Aorus Master

 

Only the MB was changed. Test was performed with 3950x and - again - only variable is MB change. Burn in period for both MB. Same BIOS setup.

Hypothesis: Aorus master is the best MB vs Asus due to the best power phases/VRM on the market.

 

Result:

 

- Aorus master has excellent PRaT: very sharp and well defined transients, excellent timing, however almost in a mechanical kind of way. Excellent instrument separation as well. Excellent control over all frequencies, no bloom or muddiness. Almost like having an upgraded clock. Excellent for electronic music. However sound is tonally much more grey and bland, more shut in, less open and colorful, less compelling and - dare I say - less analogue and less naturally musical. More homogenized as well.

 

- Asus B550E. As soon as I put the MB back, there’s no question. Much more musical, natural, room filling, tonally rich, colorful, more real sounding.
 

Bottom line: the MB absolutely matters for SQ and in this A/B test, in my system and OS, Asus is the way to go. No question and very surprised by the result. This test made me want to check out the Dark Hero (tier 1 with excellent VRM) but I lost interest since B550E sounds so good.

It is unclear what the impact of power phases are - maybe transients and detail - but it is clear in my system/for my taste (usual disclaimers...) what is the best MB taken as *a package* and between those 2, it’s the Asus B550E.
 

The best one overall for AMD Ryzen for Audio might very well be the Dark Hero but that is untested. 

Good info thanks. I purchased my MB after seeing a few posts here also. I believe my Asus Maximum XII Extreme also has 16 power stages & no doublers. 

[ASRMichael]

9 minutes ago, ted_b said:

Can I assume the Asus is called Maximus, not Maximum, or are they different?  If Maximus, is this mobo $1500 and cost $160 to ship??  Yikes!

https://www.newegg.com/asus-rog-maximus-xii-extreme/p/1JW-000C-00U79?quicklink=true

Hi yes sorry. Maximus £800 delivered UK. You’re paying extra for thunderbolt & dimm.2 card. 
 

I wanted the Dimm.2 card where you can connect M.2 card to it. This goes straight to CPU. However when I tried it today it worked but my pcie lane 2 stopped working. Pity. 

[ASRMichael]

To Hyper Thread or to not for non upsampling.,
 

Many users do recommend HT but some suggest to deactivate it. 

Anyone want to explain the for & against? 

[ASRMichael]

I’ve decided to keep Hyper Threading on. Was straight forward compare. Having dual bios chip helps to quickly switch back & forth. HT seems more free & airy to me. 
 

For some reason HT seems few db higher. Weird...

[ASRMichael]

2 hours ago, mikicasellas said:

Looking for a replacement:

 

I just putted an Intel i7-10700K + Asus Rog Strix Z490-E but the ASUS MoBo was damaged so i returned to AMAZON.

 

I have been looking at several MoBo from Gigabyte and ASUS with characteristics like number of power phases and PCIE slots & m.2 from CPU:

 

GIGABYTE AORUS Master Z490

GIGABYTE AORUS master Z590

GIGABYTE Vision G & D in both Z490 - Z590

to name some...

 

Has anyone experienced any of these with Intel 10th generation ? i wonder how do they stack against the ASUS ROG STRIX Z490-E

 

Great week everyone !!

Based on a few posts above the Aorus is certainly an option. Read last few pages of this thread. 

[ASRMichael]

2 hours ago, Darryl R said:

 

For anyone using the ROG Maximus, will the HDPlex heatpipes clear that VRM heatsink?

Hi, yes just, touching MB heatsink. But believe HDPlex are new version with cooler 3mm higher. Which will be 3mm clearance from pipes to MB heatsink. Just ask for new version when ordering HDPlex case. 
 

I’m using XII Extreme, the previous X1 Formula fits fine.