Building a DIY Music Server

[MarcelNL]

At that level I'd say it is a question of what other components, like CPU MB etc you are using.  The better JCat cards for sure will be getting you better results, similar to adding alloy forged wheels to your car but what 'engine'it has has more impact. Likelwise, the difference in sound quality when comparing a Jcat card to the on board USB and a dedicated non audio brand PCIe USB card was noticeable but nowhere near as large as the difference between MB's or CPU's, YMMV and opinions may differ and all that.

 

If you go balls to the wall money, no object throughout your build, for sure choose the better version. 

[MarcelNL]

Power is king, I would not use any less cables than 3*AWg14 for each positive and negative since you are adding a strech of wire between your ULPS output and the Taiko ATX. I added each pair of the 16 pins for the EPS connector on the MB and the difference with each additional pair was audible. 

 

 

[MarcelNL]

that is a hard decision to make indeed, I;d not opt for either one but aim to tackle both resistance and vibration.

 

I'm planning to build a 2 layer case, with the ULPS in the lower part on a subchassis with vibration control, and the MB sitting on top in something like sorbothane feet trying to keep the lengths of wire to a minimum and control/minimize vibration. My case is going to be panzerholz, and I plan to use EMF shielding in between.

 

[MarcelNL]

2 minutes ago, oneguy said:

Don’t you need steel to the block 60hz of the transformer?

nope, why would you? Steel (and aluminium for that matter) is a great conductor of vibration and does not shield EMI anywhere near as good as many think, taking f.e. an amplifier out of a steel case makes it sound better. Same here.

[MarcelNL]

Using a good transformer, distance and component orientation is key. Experiment with that first, then with shielding and vibration control per component ...there are no shortcuts yet the gain can be considerable at this level.

 

 

[MarcelNL]

Organic cotton, unbleached is what sounds best for towels😋 

[MarcelNL]

Marcin IS JCat, so tech support is available ;-)

[MarcelNL]

1 hour ago, TimF said:

I have following connectors on the motherboard, as I don’t use a graphics card, can I use that port for a usb or network card? 

 

1 x PCI Express x16 slot, running at x16 (PCIEX16)
(The PCIEX16 slot conforms to PCI Express 5.0 standard.)

2 x PCI Express x16 slots, running at x4 (PCIEX4_1, PCIEX4_2)
(The PCIEX4 slots conform to PCI Express 3.0 standard.)

will your MB boot without graphics? (unsure if it has onboard graphics).

My current MB needs a graphics card for it to pass POST, Daphile shuts it off after booting.

[MarcelNL]

if your thermal paste is fresh and by one of the more well known brands the type does not matter a whole lot...lookup some YT videos on various shootouts. 

 

[MarcelNL]

good thinking! Heatpipes can transfer more heat the wider and shorter they are, I also found that gravity helps a good deal, therefore I placed the heat sink higher (also as it makes clearing the MB easier). Taiko is showing an almost ideal placement of heatpipes IMO.

In my final build the heatpipes can be shorter, currently using  6 *6mm, so I expect to see lower CPU temps (currently idling around 55, full blast temp is a couple of degrees higher)

[MarcelNL]

21 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Great post! Can you list where you bought Heatpipes & also the bending tool? Cheers 

bought mine here;

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32836351489.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.4b6a1802AhXCP7

 

with some dexterity you won't need a bending tool, careful , very smal increments so the pipe does not kink.

[MarcelNL]

3 minutes ago, Jeremy Anderson said:

Out of curiosity, where are folks ordering Panzerholz from? I see mention of it here and there, but my internet searches for a supplier that caters to end users / individuals have been fruitless so far. (Perhaps it's because Panzerholtz a European product and I'm in the US?)

Delignit is the company behind it, I have no insight in US resellers...I recall reading some did/do exist in Canada. Perhaps Delignit can help, or their webiste may even show a reseller (just pray you do not have to buy per sheet)

Anyhow, I plan on ordering pre cut from Germany...given the weight NOT an interesting option for anyone in the US.

[MarcelNL]

7 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

How/what are you using it for? Any photos to can show us?

NOt yet, I want to flesh out the prototype to see how much space I need for the LPSU..at the moment the number of bypass caps is going wild so everything is still in flux...planning to build a case out of Panzerholz with the LPSU (underneath) with a suspended shelf over it to mount the MB over the LPSU.

[MarcelNL]

21 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

The only two HDMI cables that I have spent a fair amount of time with as I2S links are the Wireworld Chroma 7 (12-inch) and the Pangea Audio HD23PC Premium (0.6 meter).  Very different construction between the two.  I had been using the Wireworld for 2-3 years--and had the Pangea (highly recommended to me by someone here on the forum) in the box for about that long.  As mentioned, I've recently had more time to play around and tweak (and other things I've done to my system lately have made it ever more sensitive and responsive), so I finally put in the Pangea.  At first its forwardness (in comparison to the Chroma 7) was almost overwhelming. Very tactile and dimensional. I went back and forth a few times to be sure it was not a bad thing. Now, with some time (break-in or just my ears getting used to it and discovering all the details) I am fully convinced it is the more revealing cable.  Go figure.

[And of course such talk of HDMI cables--and all this other stuff with software, clocks, power supplies, etc.--would give all the measurement/"objectivist" people massive fits. But if someone was here with me in my room right now, listening to favorite Nina Simone, Peter Case, or Peter Gabriel albums (oh the bass!), there would be nothing but grins.]

In many implementations I2S cables ahave a length limitation, don't you think that the difference in length (12"is what 33cm or so?) versus 50 cm had a part in any sonic differences?

On my system I found that different HDMI cables affected sound much more than different cables using the rj45 based system metrum is using.

[MarcelNL]

Not sure if @Superdad is not aware of the ramifications of I2S cable length, I was just wondering if he implemented I2S in such a way that cable lenght is not a limitation,

[MarcelNL]

9 hours ago, Superdad said:

I believe it.  Yet:

a) I2S over HDMI is driven by an LVDS driver chip, so I think the impact of length will somewhat depend on that part--as well as the LVDS receiver chip at the DAC;

b) In my--extremely limited--experiment, the Wireworld Chroma 7 was the short (12") cable yet the 24" Pangea is my clear preference.  Unfortunately the Pangea Premier SE is not available in any shorter length.

 

BTW, I a open to suggestions of other HDMI cables to try for the I2S link from DDC to DAC as it is clear the Holo Spring is quite sensitive to that link. Suggestion only of cables heard first-hand ear please.  

I have experimented with an LVDS to HDMI convertor going into my modified SU1 and listened to a few HDMI cables at the same length after checking effects of length on sound I settled for the shortest cable feasible (40cm in my case). Ultimately a home brew cable using a twisted pairs of thin UPOCC sounded best but the cheap belden bluejeans came close (the differences are not as large as with f.e. USB cables).

 

Ultimately the solution without DDC sounded best, I2S straight from the PF to the DAC using RJ45 cable (cable matters FAR less in that solution I'm currently using a piece of Cat 8 and my home bre cable lies around somewhere as I need to fix it (RJ45 connectors are a nightmare for DIY cables, well HDMI was worse to be honest).

 

To the Pink Faun I2S, the bridge may be cheaper but the OCXO is expensive, I just ordered the ultra version and my wallet still hurts.

[MarcelNL]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Anderson said:

I'm curious to try a DDC between my DIY Extreme and the Gustard X26 Pro. The KTE SU-2 looks like a very nice unit, though I'm not sure if its LVDS can be flippensied to work with the Gusty. (Probably can, I just haven't stared at all the options deeply yet -- similarly, I'd love some first-hand experience if anyone here has paired these two boxes together).

I have a smattering of nice HDMI cables I can try -- but I need the interface first.  I was actually wondering why anyone would bother going from PC->USB->DDC->HDMI/I2S->DAC if it's possible to just go PC->HDMI/I2S->DAC and eliminate 'the middle man' (USB).

It seems like Pink Faun makes such a card... Pink Faun I2S Bridge and it's a lot cheaper than a KTE SU-2. Perhaps there are others out there I should consider. Either way, the PF card would be an interesting way to 'dip my toes' into the I2S waters without making a super serious commitment.  The only real downside to the PF card I see is that they roll their own high-precision clock daughter boards and don't seem to offer one that accepts an external clock input (at least not one I have seen).  If they did... wow, what an ultra-flexible solution that would be!

 

Take care to check the compatibility of CPU and OS before buying the PF I2s, other than that HIGHLY recommended!

Their Ultra OCXO has impressive specs IFAIK, not sure what other clocks would add,

 

A true comparison between USB and I2S can hardly be made as it all comes down to implementation...IME I2S clearly trumped I2S yet many DACs do not come with an I2S input.

[MarcelNL]

ask Pink Faun? They do custom jobs...I see one minor issue and that is the frequency of the OCXO in the I2S bridge, it is using 24.xyz Mhz. and most external clocks (as far as I am aware of them) do not provide that exact frequency.

 

 

[MarcelNL]

54 minutes ago, Nenon said:

HDMI cables made quite a difference in my system when I was using I2S. 

I had an audiophile guy stop by my house a couple of years ago. He told me he was working with a cable manufacturer on a HDMI cable for I2S for years. He did not have a final product but he had a prototype they have been working on. He explained to me that the cable length had a huge contribution. They had done several copies of their prototype cable in one inch increments (starting from 6 inches to something like 2-3 feet). And they found a specific length that sounded best. It was not the shortest, but it was fairly short. I thought that was interesting. 

talk w Cees Ruitenberg from Metrum and Sonnet about I2S and he'll tell you LVDS is no good. I tend to believe him in favoring LVCMOS as it for sure is much less affected by cable length although I lack the detailed insight in the electronics behind either implementation and finding out all key parameters via trial and error is challenging.

I2S was never intended as interlink format, just to let chips communicate. It can be made to work and if done right it can outperform most other digital audio signal formats IME. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I²S

 

 

[MarcelNL]

Multiplying a clock signal is not what you want if you go to the length of investing in a Mutec, most/many I2S signals do not carry the master clock as far as I'm aware.

[MarcelNL]

From my conversations the conclusion was that his solution for I2S over RJ45 is not affected by cable length nearly as much as using the LVDS method. I cannot comment on all of his reasons to choose one method over the other than that he opined his choise is the better one because the impedance matching they are using supposedly has superior jitter performance and cable length is less of an issue.

Where I mentioned the master clock I did mean the master clock and not the 'bit clock' that indeed is part of the signal.

My understanding of I2S is pretty basic, although I'm tinkering with using the signal since I started modifying my trusted Marantz CD player with good result. How Pink Faun makes do with that frequency clock is a mystery to me, all I know is that they use the HDA CMedia 888 chip that requires 24.576Mhz to work,

 

from the data sheet:

 Compatible with PCI Express 1.1 interface, with bus mastering and burst modes  Embedded 8051-based MCU transcodes HD Audio commands to link various external I2S codecs (external 4 or 8KB serial EEPROM is required)  Built-in HD Audio and I2S controllers  I2S interface sample rate supports 192K/176.4K/96K/88.2K/48K/44.1K and 16/24/32-bit resolutions  Integrated 192K/176.4K/96K/88.2K/48K/44.1K and 16/24-bit S/PDIF transmitter/receiver  Supports SPI/I2C control interface  24.576MHz crystal input required with embedded PLL for adaptive clock rate

 

 

Wikipedia on I2S:

The I²S protocol outlines one specific type of PCM digital audio communication with defined parameters outlined in the Philips specification.

 

 

The bus consists of at least three lines:

1. Bit clock line
   • Officially "continuous serial clock (SCK)".^[1] Typically written "bit clock (BCLK)".^[3]
2. Word clock line
   • Officially "word select (WS)".^[1] Typically called "left-right clock (LRCLK)"^[3] or "frame sync (FS)".^[4]
   • 0 = Left channel, 1 = Right channel^[1]
3. At least one multiplexed data line
   • Officially "serial data (SD)",^[1] but can be called SDATA, SDIN, SDOUT, DACDAT, ADCDAT, etc.^[3]

It may also include the following lines:

1. Master clock (typically 256 x LRCLK)
   • This is not part of the I2S standard,^[5] but is commonly included for synchronizing the internal operation of the analog/digital converters.^[4][6]
2. A multiplexed data line for upload

 

[MarcelNL]

we'll see what the ultra OCXO brings to the ears later this week, rather next week as it'll have to break in for a good few hundred hours.

So far I am not under the impression that the CM888 is a let down when compared to other solutions I've tried but an ABX is near impossible as gear is so specific that setting up two identical systems with different digital interfaces becomes impracticable. 

[MarcelNL]

(and we'll see how long the Xilinx 2522 takes to arrive)

[MarcelNL]

Now we're on the topic of clocks, I happen to have a OCXO @ 24.576 Mhz lying around that I can sell, OR....see if I can put it to use on the Aorus Master X570 Mb I'm using, big problem is...how do I find out what freq the Mb clock has? Anyone here who knows a place to start looking?

 

 

[MarcelNL]

thanks! Yeah I checked the manual and it says nothing about clocks...I;d be looking to replace the clock that matters most, not the output or ethernet since I have got those covered with ultra low jitter PCi cards.

 

Sounds like fun replacing it.....i may ask PF to do it when it is possible at all, they do that trick regularly and are in driving distance.