The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[cat6man]

15 minutes ago, gstew said:

 

That was how I felt for the first 3 or so days. BUT last night I put in my target power setup for the ER... 2 LPS-1.2's set to 12V with each feeding 1/2 of an MPAudio.com dual-section 3||LT3045 regulator board with both halves set to 10V (using .1% resistors to keep them REALLY closely mattched) with the outputs tied together to parallel the LPS-1.2 outputs. This is a setup I have used with much success to power sources such as RPi's, Allo's USBBridge SIgnature, and my SDTrans384 SD Card Player. Compared to a good 2A-3A linear supply 1 LPS-1.2 seemed to have lessened dynamics although it clearly had quieter backgrounds and more clarity. Paralleling 2 this way brought the dynamics into parity with the AC-connected supply with no negative impacts.

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

can you describe the MPAudio dc-dc kit (models, additional mods, etc) in more detail please? 

[cat6man]

On 11/18/2019 at 1:29 PM, gstew said:

 

@cat6man, first, my apology... it is mpaudio.net. I have edited my post above.

 

Back when he started he sold un-populated boards on DIYAudio. I bought several of these. 

 

The ones on his website today that are closest to what I built are his MD-HPULN PS. The boards I used are an earlier version of this. I modify them by not populating the rectifier diodes as I feed it DC. You could also use his DC-input-only SD-HPULN.

 

As I populated them myself, my builds are a bit different than stock. The LT3045 regulators and associated chip caps and resistors are nearly identical to his products. Instead of a pot on each side to set the voltage out, I use an SMD 33K resistor (that gives 9.85V... 33.4K will get you closer to my 10V target) that I solder across the input/output through-holes where the pot would go. I use electrolytic caps that I've had good results with in other builds, United ChemiCon KYB series. AND I directly solder some high-current connectors onto the board at the input and output sides. 

 

If you went for an SD-HPULN from him or an MD-HPULN setup for DC input, replaced the pots with 33K or 33.4K precision resistors (leaded resistors would work as well and be easier to use... also ask, he may be able to do this if you are not comfortable with soldering), paralleled the outputs, and fed each input with an LPS-1.2 set to 12V, your results would be very similar to mine.

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

Greg,

 

Thanks for kicking this off.  In my mind, I correlated your results with something I'd read before where a double regulated rail of Paul Hynes SR7 was reported to be dramatically better than a (still not shabby!) regular rail of a SR7.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=998903

 

This got me wondering if the MPAudio stuff could be considered a viable way of getting double regulation and the (hopefully) concomitant SQ improvement.

 

As for soldering, I'm fine with that as long as it doesn't involve surface mount.  I unsoldered a surface mount resistor once in the lab under a magnifying light but have no desire to do that again, mechanical klutz that I am.

 

So I'm thinking of a couple of possible methods.

1.  your method with 2 lps-1.2 driving a dual rail MD-HPULN and putting in 2 fixed resistors as you suggested, tying the outputs in parallel to get more current capability

2.  using a single rail MS-HPULN driven by a HD-PLEX200 power supply rail and using the potentiometer to set the voltage

 

option 2 would let me power the etherRegen and, by changing the input to 19V and output voltage to 15V, power my NUC server running audiolinux/hqplayer.........either option 1 or 2 would be good for powering my opticalRendu, so I really have 3 audio devices where i'm investigating upgrades to the power and this dual regulation method appears potentially beneficial.

 

a few questions:

1.  what did you use for output connectors and output cables?

2.  any recommendations on enclosures?

3.  have you considered the M vs. L series from MPAudio?  The L series has yet even lower noise due to paralleling more LT3045s.  Costs about 1/3 more but a bargain if it further improves SQ.

 

 

[cat6man]

3 minutes ago, Nenon said:

 

You can actually buy one, but not on Amazon. It would be $30K+ (but what's that in hifi) and would be the size of big speakers (so you can still park your car in the garage). Exchanges in the financial sector do all kinds of crazy things to decrease/increase/control latency. Here is one example - https://youtu.be/d8BcCLLX4N4?t=158.

Sorry for the off topic message.

 

 

no no no no no...........you've got it all wrong.

 

the financial industry pays mightily to reduce latency but to do that they get rid of the fiber!

there are digital microwave links to connect the markets from chicago to NY built solely to eliminate the wasteful latency of fiber links.

propagation time through the air is much less than the propagation time through fiber!!!!!!!!

[cat6man]

On 11/20/2019 at 11:17 PM, gstew said:

LOL... if @joelha is a card-carying audiophile, I suspect I'm considered a rabid audiophile!

 

@catman,

 

You're welcome. 

 

I remember reading that report on the double rail SR-7. I also remember @tubelover's (RIP) and others comments on the positive effects of cascaded LT3045 regulator modules.

 

Of course, feeding the MPAudio dual 3||LT3045 modules with LPS-1.2's actually gives you triple regulation... each Ultracap string has an output TPS7A400, followed by a paralleled pair of LT3045 which is then fed into a side of the MPAUdio board. Likely why it has worked well for me.

 

I don't have any experience with MPAudio's L Series. But I suspect that would provide additional benefits, especially with an AC-connected power supply like the HD-PLEX200.

 

AND while it doesn't feature 2 stages of regulation, I've heard very good things about the 'ideal diode bridge' setup as is used in the LSIB-HPULN. That product with a good transformer may be a good, lower cost alternative to the HD-PLEX200 coupled with a DC-input MPAudio board. Because of that, consider trying the HD-PLEX200 / MS-HPULN combo first in each of your applications, then get an LSIB-HPULN to try on the ER. The care Uptone put into the power network may reduce the sensitivity to alternative power.

 

On soldering the precision resistors to make for trouble-free paralleling, I use small SMD resistors because I can. Good .1% leaded resistors should also fit where the pot is on the MPAudio boards and work just as well. Ask if he'll do that for you.

 

On connectors, I use a high-current model aircraft connecter, the Deans Ultra Plug. You can find them at Horizon Hobby, your local hobby shop, OR you can find a Chinese copy at Amazon. I solder them directly on the MPAudio boards input and and output pads... IMHO, the best wire is no wire. 

 

AND if one must use wire, keep it as short as possible. From the LPS-1.2's to the inputs on the MPAUdio boards, I use short (6"-8") output leads fashioned from the Canare 4S6 as described by John Swenson in this thread:

 

On the output side I'm using whatever short Dean to barrel connector leads I have around from other projects. At some point I'll replace them with some good Canare 4S6-based leads.

 

On enclosures, sorry, I don't use no stinking enclosures. Honestly, I generally don't. All of my digital gear is DIY & subject to change. So it all sits out in the open with Kapton tape and heatshrink insulation where needed to prevent accidents. 

 

I used the dual LPS-1.2 / paralleling MPAudio board setups for the ER because they are one of the best setups I have here that I can run at 10V. For my lower-voltage (3.3V-5V) player and DAC supplies I'm going over to directly-connected LiFePO4 (3.3V or multiples only) or Ultracaps (325F-3000F!). With the Ultracaps (that have a much lower overall watt-hour capacity than the LiFePO4 cells) I float-charge them with either LPS-1.2 or good AC-connected linear supplies like the Allo Shanti. These combos are all expert level DIY supplies and I don't recommend them for an inexperienced DIY'er. BUT two commercial products that implement similar setups for a 10V-12V output are the the Cuinas Audio 10V Ultracap supplies or the Farad 10V or 12V supplies. I've read good things about these and would certainly consider them.

 

Finally, I have some other less-expensive DIY options to try... modified Jameco Linear-Regulated wall warts replacing the 2 LPS-1.2 into the dual MPAudio board and a single 6||LT3045 MPAudio boards I can feed from a larger DIY AC-connected supply. Again, because of the sophistication of the ER power network, I wonder if these may work nearly as well as my more expensive dual LPS-1.2 option. I have some time off next week during the US Thanksgiving Day holiday and will try these and report back.

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

thanks for the reply and sorry it took me so long to find this thread.............

although i have the forum threads sorted by date of last reply, all the pinned topics appear first and this thread, since it is not pinned, was way down and i only found it today.

 

i've ordered a unit and will post my progress in the future.

 

cheers

[cat6man]

just received delivery of MS-HPULN PS from mpaudio.

i kept the potentiometer for output voltage since I'm not yet sure where in my system i will end up using it.

 

next step is to replace the input/output wire connectors with 2.1mm pcb mounted connectors (to be scavanged from old h/w)

[then i can tell my wife how i saved $ by keeping that old junk in the basement for future salvage use]

 

current test plans:

1.  lps-1.2 ==> (w/ & w/o) mpaudio ==> iso regen (from opticalRendu) ==> DAC

2.  hdplex200 ==> (w/ & w/o) mpaudio ==> audiolinux NUC running hqplayer embedded

3.  sr4 ==> (w/ & w/o) mpaudio ==> opticalRendu

 

january plans: [no eR here until then]

4.  lps-1.2 ==> (w/ & w/o) mpaudio ==> etherRegen

 

[cat6man]

18 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

I would like to know why having other switches in the chain matters if the ER A-side ports are all galvanically isolated from each other and all the noise is gone once the moat has been crossed.  Isn't the moat supposed to make such things irrelevant @Superdad

 

i'd go with "much is still not understood, grasshopper"

[cat6man]

14 hours ago, gstew said:

I did do a couple of quick trials with lesser linear supplies than the 2xLPS-1.2 paralleled via a dual-section MPAudio 3||LT0345 board. They confirmed that the dual LPS-1.2 setup was superior, though I haven't put the stock SMPS back in to see how it compares again.

 

looking forward to the comparisons

[cat6man]

anyone have recommendations for a 2.1mm, pcb mounted DC jack to be used with an MPAudio power board.

 

i needed something with sufficient voltage and current handling (e.g. 15-19v input/output for NUC and 7-12v/3-5amp outputs for eRegen, oRendu, isoRegen)

[cat6man]

cablematters does not have a cat8 cable beyond 5m (i checked with them).

 

can anyone recommend a company/brand where i can get a good 12m or 15m cat8 cable?

 

is there a specific reason folks have be looking at cablematters versus other vendors?

[cat6man]

On 1/1/2020 at 3:28 PM, ray-dude said:

 

+10000

 

Maddening to have something this audible without even a working physical theory (cable to optimized NUC to optimized TX Ultra for USB regeneration to DAC...that's a lot of optimization layers between the cable and my ears). Clearly the enhanced shielding of the CAT8 cables is making a difference.  Can the antenna effect to the streamer end point be that significant?

 

With a second Cable Matters CAT8 on hand, I just had to experiment.  I clipped the shield on one end of the cable, thinking I would prefer the clipped end on the NUC (I power my NUC with a battery for mains isolation).  Alas, another hypothesis shot down.  I preferred the clipped shield end on the ER side (at least so far)

 

All this reminds me of the random walk search a bunch of folks did with Lush^2 shield configurations.  Those with the Phasure ET^2 are in a much better position to investigate different shield configurations to suss out what may be going on.

 

 

maddening is a good description, and not just for digital cables.

 

consider pc/nuc==>router==>opticalModule==>optical Rendu==>totalDAC reclocker==>totalDAC

all devices powered by linear power supplies.

not just the cables matter, but the latency in the NUC and even the RAM (running hqplayer under audiolinux with ramroot sounding better than off the usb stick)

 

i brought this up with some friends and colleagues at an engineering conference last year and, after considering (and hopefully rejecting) the conclusion that i had a few loose screws, we concluded that the only mechanism we could hypothesize was power and ground related noise components (whether ground plane, noise injected back into the line, noise created in device processing received jittered clocks, etc........)

[cat6man]

On 1/3/2020 at 6:33 PM, lmitche said:

Hi Cat6man,

 

Your comment brings a smile to my face. When saying that digital cable impact on SQ amazes me, the last thing I meant was to imply is that digital cables are the only thing that leads to amazing SQ.

 

After 5 years of reading 10,000 of posts, posting thousands myself and trying many 100's of experiments, I agree, we do not understand many of the underlying mechanisms that impact SQ. I share your frustration with this situation. Nevertheless, we have developed a set of best practices that work. 

 

First, we have collectively crowd sourced the development and production of unique solutions like the Uptone ISO Regen, ER Regen and LPS1.2 that deliver substantial sound quality enhancements by reducing noise, isolating grounds and re-clocking digital signals. The impact of these devices has stood the test of time, and happily the level of commercial success has created enough incentive for these talented people to continue the work. There have been many other companies that have imitated the Uptone devices, another sign of success.

 

Linear power supply companies, like Hdplex, Paul Hynes, Farad and others continue to innovate based on demand generated from these pages.

 

Likewise on the cable front, innovations like the Ghent DC cabling, or the Phasure Lush cables, are all based on the JSSG360 ideas offered by John Swenson and further developed and validated by members here.

 

Software solutions like Roon, Audiolinux, and Euphony continue to make incremental SQ gains with the help of our members.

 

Lastly we are getting much better at finding the most sensitive parts of the chain, to prioritize the next set of tweaks to enhance SQ. Knowing this guides efforts to find incremental SQ gains from cabling, network configuration, software and hardware tweaks. We have also proven that these enhancements can be replicated and shared with others that validate the enhancements by hearing the same impact. 

 

I suspect that someday sooner rather then later, John and/or Alex will be able to definitively tells us what is happening.

 

But in the meantime, SQ is at a very high level with clarity, image density and subtle detail that creates a spine tingling perception of realistic presence, a noise floor in the basement and musical enjoyment that is beyond my best expectations. I don't know how much further we have to go, but any progress from here will be gravy.

 

Thanks again for the smile and Happy New Year,

 

Larry

 

 

 

Larry,

 

We're absolutely on the same page here.

 

True story (you can find my old posts somewhere)

 

Once upon a time (really!), I had achieved the absolute best SQ I had ever heard.

It was so good, I commented that "if it got any better, my head would explode".

 

Soundstage, depth, resolution, ease, endless decays and such constantly bringing smiles to my face as I listened to familiar tracks, just luxuriating in the sound.  Another way I described the 'magic' at the time was that it 'slowed time down' so that I was hearing detail and decay and interplay between instruments as if in slow motion.

 

............then I made some "this should be better" changes and lost the "magic" formula and have been slowly working my way back to it.  Steps that have helped me get back partway to my 'magical ideal' are NUC/hdplex200 with audio-linux, ramroot, SR-4 power supply on opticalRendu, lps-1.2 on opticalModule, lps-1.2 on isoRegen, lush^2 usb cable...............etherRegen to arrive in a couple of weeks.

All of these have produced steps back towards where I used to be but I'm not quite there yet.

 

Where was I before:

50ft cat6 ethernet cable to ultraRendu with Sonore battery, uRendu usb output (light harmonic split dc cable) to dx-usbHD (convert to aes/ebu) to DAC, all running hqplayer embedded (NUC/wall-wart smps, shared with sageTV server) with no signal processing (just moving renderer off the Rendu, running as NAA).  given the attention i've profitably paid to cables and power supplies this past year, it seems that I had inadvertently landed at a lucky minimal noise spot with the battery powered stuff and cabling.

 

then i foolishly changed power supplies, usb/aes-ebu converter, usb cables, etc and lost the soundstage magic and have been carefully (now at least, should have been more careful before!!) moving back in that direction......i'm hoping the etherRegen gets me the rest of the way back, as the descriptions i'm hearing (and the improvements i've made this past year after going down the rabbit hole of the mega-thread) match my own.

 

lesson learned:  keep track of what you're doing/changing and NEVER screw with changes you can't reverse.

[cat6man]

On 1/23/2020 at 3:52 PM, RickyV said:

I am sitting a bit on the sideline waiting how this optical feeding of the ER pans out but sound promising with these attenuators. I was wondering if the guys who play with the optical rendu know about this.

 

i have an eR and an oR and just received some 5dB and 10dB optical attenuators in the mail, so I'll be checking that out........stay tuned

[cat6man]

17 hours ago, ray-dude said:

Over on the main ER thread @cat6man asked: (and @superdad appropriately redirected here)

 

 

I run my LPS 1.2 at 12V for my EdgeRouter 10X.  I don't have any PoE devices on it (unlike the EdgeRouter X, the 10X is passive PoE pass through...the ER X needs the extra voltage for PoE, but doesn't need it to run)

 

I have not tried different voltages to see if it makes a difference.

 

thanks.

will be testing at 12v with my 2nd lps1.2 today