Mains conditioner for SMPSs?

[Blackmorec]

On 11/9/2019 at 1:49 PM, mansr said:

Unplug the SMPS strip and see if you can hear any difference in noise from the speakers with the volume turned up to 11. If not, a power conditioner will be of no benefit.

That assumes you’re going to be able to hear the noise, which unless you’re a 🦇 is highly unlikely. Just because its called noise doesn’t mean you can actually hear it directly. What you will hear is the damage it does to the sound quality, but obviously not if you unplug all your sources 😉

[Blackmorec]

1 minute ago, marce said:

The point being Mansr check is for audible noise...

If you can't hear the noise there is NO issue...

Which I believe is the whole point of the exercise, reducing possible audible noise....

No you’re absolutely right. It seems that as long as it doesn’t hum, buzz, crackle and pop, you’re good. In that sense, Mansr is correct. If on the other hand you care about what high frequency noise that you can’t hear does to ruin sound quality then not so much. I realise this SQ thing is of no real concern to several who post here, in the ‘you don’t miss what you’ve never had’ sense. 

[Blackmorec]

2 hours ago, marce said:

How do you check if high frequency noise doesn't alter the sound how do you check for it?

To check for noise needs measurements, a scope at least really. Then you have to determine whether the noise is having an effect on the final analogue output and at what level, again as some noise is way down, you can't perceive it, so again without measurements you have no reference.

Hi Marce,

Sensible question. High frequency noise does alter the sound but not in the analog way.....which is is to add audible noise that you hear along with the music. Rather it adds noise in the digital way which masks detail, robs the system of resolution and makes the sound slightly hard, edgy and metallic sounding and therefore slightly irritating over longer listening periods. 

I don’t have a scope, yet I’ve removed considerable noise from my system. How? By gradually replacing the sources of noise and those areas where noise enters the system. You’ll know when you’re successful as your system resolution will gradually increase and the sound will become sweeter and more natural. The point is, if you are genuinely interested in achieving better quality sound from your system you need to understand where your noise comes from and how it enters your system and how best to remove it. 

To answer the OPs question, I would simply borrow a designed-for-audio power extender,  try it on both sets of PSs and see if I can hear the difference. If I can I would add a second unit.  One unit will prevent noise entering the system from the mains and the other will prevent the SMPSs from polluting the mains. 

[Blackmorec]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

If one fears that a device might be harming the sound quality, is it not a valid test to unplug said device and check if the sound improves?

That totally depends on what it is. Is its your phone charger then sure. If its the power supplies for your network and/or source components then no 😊

[Blackmorec]

2 hours ago, marce said:

So its adding noise! That's how you mask detail.

 

Define noise.  Noise that you can hear or noise that interferes with processing of high frequency data streams that impacts resolution. 

Get back to my mosquito net analogy. With the fine mosquito net in place, you can’t actually see it but you also can’t see that its raining. Take the net away and the picture doesn’t change buy you can resolve finer detail, like raindrops

[Blackmorec]

58 minutes ago, marce said:

Again if you can hear it, its an issue...

Again, you can’t hear the noise, you can hear the effect of the noise, so of course its an issue.  I wasn’t the one who said it wasn’t an issue. If you remove any signal and turn up the volume you’ll hear nothing, because the noise that causes the loss of resolution is WAY above what is audible. All you hear is the effect, which is a negative impact on SQ and that’s the issue. Your music sounds fatiguing, less complex and less natural....more hi-fi and electronic in nature 

[Blackmorec]

1 hour ago, marce said:

So how does this noise have an effect on the resolution?

 

By affecting the DAC’s analog output s/n ratio. If you want a more detailed technical explanation you’ll need to ask someone who develops DACs. There is some rather complex math involved that goes well beyond my comprehension

[Blackmorec]

Hi Marce, 

Problems with the keyboard eh. Try unplugging and replugging before buying a new one 😁

[Blackmorec]

EMI and RFI is wide bandwidth analog noise that is both conducted and radiated . It enters CDPs via ground, power, interconnect and data stream cables or is absorbed by vulnerable circuits and components, where it interacts with the analog voltages of digital data and clock signals, resulting in either the right signal at the wrong time or wrong signal at the right time. In the time domain this is called jitter, which translates in frequency domain to phase noise, the results of which are documented above...a negative effect on sound quality. 

Again, this my layman’s understanding. For a more thorough explanation you’d need to talk to a specialist who understands both digital and analog domains.

[Blackmorec]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

Yes, someone like marce.

OK. Which pieces of top class audio gear has marce developed? Before I listen to someone’s opinion that is contrary to what I’ve pieced together and learned over the years, I’d like to know that their opinion is based on solid learning and experience.  As a minimum I’d expect them to able to explain in detail how EMI and RFI impacts the signals that move around within digital systems and impact the output of CDPs 

[Blackmorec]

2 hours ago, marce said:

Well I was responsible for the PCB's etc. for this AN VIC-5...😁 

Worked on quite a bit of pro audio stuff over the years, a bit of commercial a lot of communications... And a wide variety of other stuff far more sensitive than domestic audio... and whatever you believe the lessons learned from other analogue/digital/rf/microwave designs are applicable to domestic audio. That why I think a lot of the presumed issues in domestic audio are forwarded to sell kit, cynical yes, because most if not all the issues are solvable.

But unless anything I say supports the general beliefs, it will be dismissed, or pulled up for appealing to authority etc. Of course if you want you could hire me, I'll give you my firms number and you can have me for 60-80 Euros an hour plus expenses...😉

 

Hi marce, with the greatest respect i think this is exactly the problem....extrapolating experiences in electronics and digital electronics in particular with high-end audio. In high-end audio the benchmark applied is sound quality....not something that easily correlates with the raft of measurements we currently make in electronics. Indeed some of the errr let’s say marginal measuring amplifiers are tube designs  revered by audiophiles the World over.  This discussion has been going on for years without resolution. Some of the current top designers in the digital world are finding that software, CPU processing loads, memory caches, disc drives, multiple processors and a host of other recently discovered phenomena impact sound quality, sometimes quite markedly. Who would have thought that vibration control of network components transmitting a data stream would influence the final sound quality but it does. The bit stream is unaltered but the final music is simply a lot more enjoyable to listen to and that’s the bottom line. Design something that’s bit perfect with filters up its wazoo but if it sounds bad, why bother?. The end result isn’t about measurements, its about musical quality and its enjoyment. Until we find ways to correlate that with measurements we’re going to continue with these discussions. If an electronics designer tells me certain things don’t matter and in the end I listen to his design and it sounds cr@p, then for me he’s no expert in high-end design, he’s just as electronics geek and there’s loads of those around. High end is a specialist area and it requires true specialists to develop great designs 

[Blackmorec]

3 hours ago, marce said:

Nope, your wrong, its all electronics, with some transducers...

As said there is no point me saying anything regarding the subject because there are numerous things you mention that are not going to have a audible effect on the sound and in some cases probably wont even be measurable...

Your final words say it, if someones experience and expertise does not agree with your world view then he is a crap  designer, an electronic geek... So unless anything I say or reference supports your beliefs it will be dismissed. I recently put up 3 AES presentations on shielding, dissed! one even highlighted as being insulting to audiophile. I questioned the use of Teflon PCB's in DC power supplies as both un-necessary and likely to cause more problems than they would ever solve and got the same response as I got of you; the "what does he know". Even a comment regarding decoupling capacitors got dismissed out of hand... So at the moment I have a cynical attitude to posting anything technical, because instead of leading to sensible discussion it attracts numerous posts (many from some who only seem to crop for these posts) the content being the verbal equivalent of Enoch's hammer.

Sorry but domestic audio is not the forefront of electronics. The DAC side and filters is covered in great detail by the likes of Miska, Mansr etc. We do seem to ignore the big problems such as transducers and the room interface.

Have fun. Just remember perception is not always the most reliable tool...

😁

I have no doubt whatsoever that a lot of what I hear is currently not measurable, or it may be measurable but we don’t understand how what we measure and what we hear correlate. When you say that certain things I can clearly hear don’t have an audible effect, this is where we disagree, because the more I reduce the noise on my system, the greater the effects of further noise reductions and the greater the negative impact of introducing noise sources.  But take a system that’s far from optimised and you won’t hear the differences I’m talking about. ...the classic self fulfilling prophecy. 

 

Your quote of my final words edited what I said. Its not my view of the world that’s the problem,  its what I hear that’s the final arbiter. If a designer tells me his design is perfect, yet it sounds cr@p, then by definition, it isn’t perfect. It may measure perfectly but if it doesn’t deliver great sound quality, it’s missed the goal. Designing for perfect measurements is not what the high-end is about....because perfect measurements don’t always deliver perfect sound and there are impediments to perfect sound that don’t correlate to measurements, yet can be avoided by top designers, who do achieve top class sound quality. 

Nobody says that domestic audio is at the forefront of electronics, similarly nobody is saying that the forefront of electronics delivers perfect sound.  Perception may not be the most reliable tool but in terms of high-end audio its the ultimate tool, because if perception isn’t right, the rest simply doesn’t matter. 

 

 

 

[Blackmorec]

12 minutes ago, marce said:

Can you hear better than -140dB into the mix...

...

Its like the old adage "analogue cables don't make a difference"... They do, but those differences can be measured, but are not audible, because now we can measure down to silly levels...  

Yes you can hear the differences, quite clearly actually. It often changes the nature of the music  so its more than likely you’re simply measuring the wrong things 

 

Have you ever seen the Mona Lisa? Do you know what makes it very, very special? 2 things

1. She seems to be smiling at you personally

2. There’s human warmth in the smile

So how would you go about measuring that?

 

Today we can measure practically anything and everything about that painting.....colour spectrum, paint depth, exact age, moisture content, degree of contamination, nature of contaminants...,etc. But the skill of the painter and the nature and quality of his painting? Nope 

 

 

[Blackmorec]

12 minutes ago, marce said:

-14odB!!!

By you're I suppose you mean the many many audio engineers that are and have been...  Anything that does not support your belief is wrong... No possibility of it being the other way round.

Do you ever read any of the posted links from me and others...

By you’re I mean anyone that tells me the differences I hear and literally tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of others can hear are inaudible. Its not a belief I have, its simply a logical and very simple conclusion.  The differences you measure may be -140dB, which simply means that what you are measuring is not causing the differences i hear. Your measurements indicate that I can’t hear a difference. Yet I can. So what’s your conclusion....that I’m imagining the differences. Me and thousands of others....all imagining and describing the exact same thing. But there is a perfectly logical alternative explanation. The -140dB differences you are measuring are not responsible for the differences I’m hearing. It really doesn’t get much more straightforward and logical than that. 

[Blackmorec]

On 11/14/2019 at 9:15 PM, Speedskater said:

Why would you think that the skill set is any different?

But top class audio gear isn't about engineering skill, it's about marketing.

Sorry to be so blunt, but that’s just rubbish.  Did you know that there are 4 levels of knowledge....

1. Unconscious ignorance...where you don’t know what you don’t know
2. Conscious ignorance....where you know what you don’t know
3. Conscious knowledge....where you know but need conscious effort to recall
4. Unconscious knowledge....where you know it so well it is automatic and requires no effort

With a great deal of certainty I can say that the above statement falls into category 1. 

[Blackmorec]

3 hours ago, mansr said:

You forgot:

 

5. Wilful ignorance

 

You can lead a fool to knowledge, but you can't make him think.

And his brother, good old Blind

[Blackmorec]

For me at least, hi-fi seems like a continuum that when expressed as Sound Quality goes from quite ugly to very beautiful. Quite ugly would be both rather boring and sometimes uncomfortable to listen to for tonal, resonance, haze and lack of resolution reasons.  Many poorly installed systems can sound like this.  Then we move along the continuum the components get better and set-up is improved, so everything is now ok in terms of playing music. Better yet components and some made-to-measure set-up detailing like racks, platforms, power cables etc.now make an appearance and sound quality takes a corresponding leap. Now move up a class; here you find carefully installed dedicated mains and maybe some mains treatment.....certainly power cables and probably some really good amps and speakers to match. And the sound quality? Pretty great usually, if the right work has been done on the installation; things like vibration, local noise sources, careful siting, some room treatments etc then sound quality can reach very believable and extremely high levels. 

Finally you get the real Triers; guys with well refined gear and a great set-up who go to work on the rest of the ancillaries to ensure for example a really clean, noise free (as much as possible), very close to jitter free, cable and power supply optimised network.  Some lucky ones even get to build and enjoy their own customised listening rooms. How does it sound? Pretty stunning in a lot of cases, the sound actually surprising in both its beauty, complexity and room-filling capacity and how much different and better it sounds in all regards...Its simply more beautiful in all regards and therefore more enjoyable.  If you’ve never heard that, and most people haven’t then you’ve no idea about the pinnacle that stereo really well done can reach. From an enjoyment standpoint its getting close to perfect for simply getting out of the way and leaving a room full of pure beautiful music for us to hear.

[Blackmorec]

Quote

None

Unfortunately I now find myself getting bored so I’m off to do my taxes  😑

[Blackmorec]

It always ends up coming down to this moronic crap, which is a pity because it could be a worthwhile discussion answering the question:  How come hi-fis keep getting better in the ears of thousands of enthusiasts while the engineers are unable to measure any significant differences? Mass-hypnosis, self-delusion, confirmation-bias or is there something else in play? Measurements with calibrated instruments are pretty affirmative, but many thousands of audiophiles can clearly hear the difference and more concrete, have the systems to prove it.....so its not like they can’t demonstrate what they’re saying.  So who’s right? The engineers with their scopes, dvms and educations or the audiophiles, who actually pay for, consume, build and refine the systems and listen to the stuff? Audiophiles can only raise their hands to say that something is afoot. Its the engineers who have to look into it. But if they’re constantly in denial, we are not going anywhere.  Pity!

Personally I think the answers lie with people like John Swenson, who listens when something is afoot that he can’t measure, and goes about constructing a specialised work bench to help log, track, trace and evaluate apparent contradictions in the evidence. That’s the only way this gets resolved. With an engineering solution. 

John and his ilk are the people moving both the state of the art and the state of the engineering forward.  That’s what we need....not denial, silly accusations and name callling, which frankly belong in the schoolyard. 

[Blackmorec]

1 hour ago, marce said:

Of course there are no specifications for any inter-connect used in audio!

Could that be because we have no standardising specifications for the equipment they’re interconnecting?

 

Look at every specified cable.  Networking, telecoms, etc. Its all based on standards and the items to be connected are all standardised items. 

 

Boeing for example use hundreds, probably thousands of cables on their aircraft....you can bet they all have specifications. Why? Life and death. You can’t afford the wrong cable in the wrong place...everything has to be HIGHLY controlled in that environment

 

But hi-fi ...used in a domestic environment to connect all kinds of solid state and tube equipment; some hot, some cold; some balanced, some single ended; some close together, some far apart, some with low output impedances, some high; some requiring cable with low inductance, some perform better with high; some extremely expensive, high resolution components some cheaper less revealing units.  So, what would you particularly like to mandate in terms of cables, because while you’re at it you better start introducing standards for the rest of kit that’s going to be connected by your standardised cable, otherwise the end product...Sound Quality (remember that?) is going to go to hell for all but a few systems that happen to ideally match your chosen standard values. And when you’ve done this and introduced standards for interconnects, where do you think the market is going to go?. Are they going to wipe their brow, sigh and lament that its about time someone did this. Or are they going to look at the standardised cable, try it, then go elsewhere for something better? 

Of course if one believes that cables make no difference then all I can say is, heaven preserve us from zip-cord man. 

But here’s an alternative scenario

 

Start an R&D project to find out why cables affect sound quality, because they do, Fact.  Use all kinds of measurements and statistical analysis until your have down all the elements that affect the final sound. Then design and build the ideal cable from an engineers standpoint. What will happen?  It will sound great with some systems, not so good with others, so audiophiles will still compare and some, probably many well chose alternatives. And where does that leave you with your standardised cable? Welcome to the cable industry 😁

[Blackmorec]

3 hours ago, marce said:

Do you think Boeing believe in cable magic?

No, I think Boeing recognise the differences between cables and employ engineers to sort out exactly what they need in the terms they need it...things like temperature range, armouring, screening , robustness, fuel proof, ability to flex, electrical impedance, capacitance,  inductance etc,  susceptibility to EMI and RFI, RFI radiation characteristics etc.  Essentially audiophiles have a couple of needs....match the equipment they’re using both electrically and physically and sound good when passing a music signal between components.  Of course an engineer would spec that differently, in terms of avoiding ground loops, avoiding radiating RFI, avoiding picking up RFI and EMI, matching the amplifiers’ and components’ electrical requirements, not  creating any distortions, preventing reflections,  providing sufficient flexibility, providing good socket and plug alignment and contact, avoiding corrosion etc etc 

But if you can’t hear the differences between cables, you’re never, ever going to get any of this. Your loss I’m afraid.     

 

[Blackmorec]

6 minutes ago, marce said:

Stop being so arrogant mate... and so convinced of your super human hearing...I probably get a lot more than you regarding cables...

what differences do Boeing recognise between cables, because when I've done stuff with them, there was never any mention of cable magic....

As to the rest I would suggest at least learning some basics of electronics, you may be surprised...

I don’t want to study electronics. Not remotely interested. For me there’s FAR more compelling stuff to study. I have a lay understanding which keeps me from electrocuting myself but that’s about it. For electronics I’m just a customer....I want to buy gear that sounds great, engineered by people who know what great actually sounds like.  I don’t know the best combination of electrical characteristics for a cable. That’s an engineers job. What I DO expect is for the engineer to be able to differentiate a poor sounding cable from a good one, otherwise how in the hell is he going to engineer a great cable and all we’ll get is a cable that doesn’t sound any better. Hmmmmm 😁

Also go back and read my post.... (joking!).  Cable magic is your term, not mine.... you do tend to invent a lot of the stuff you credit me with saying. To paraphrase what I said was that of course Boeing recognize differences between cables and they employ engineers to control those differences, matching what they need with the exact right cable for the job.  Audiophiles also have needs from cables but you would deny them that option as your opinion is that cables make no difference, even though probably hundreds of thousands around the world hear clear differences. The sad thing about all this is that you’re wrong so all you’d achieve at least symbolically, is to deny audiophiles the ability to buy properly engineered cables. Plain and simple. 

 As for my hearing, its not super-human, its just educated. So no magic, just LOTS of experience

 

Let me give you an example of how things could be:. 

Let’s say you’re a very good and thoughtful engineer who’s open to new ideas.  You listen to some really top class hi-fi, far better than you’ve ever heard before and you realise in your engineering brain that something is afoot. Stuff doesn’t get THAT good by accident and given that its so rare it certainly can’t be the product of regular hi-fi plugged together by regular ‘just enough’ cables otherwise there’d be great systems everywhere, and there isn’t. 

So you get to exploring and you find that the biggest culprit as far as Audiophiles are concerned is EMI and RFI, which they claim has a major impact on sound quality.  Now at this stage, what’s the next step? Nothing, or maybe Investigate the phenomenon with all the instruments you need  or build a series of cables with absolutely wave tight protection. Nothing in, nothing out.  You control for a uniform screen and to ensure the system avoids causing ground loops. Just for kicks to appeal to the Audiophiles you use Neotech 7N UHPurity 16AWG cables for your DC power cords, triple screened and some other high purity wire in your interconnects and speaker cables.

You may provide some active HF drain for the shields, whatever. 

You take it to someone who is currently running a top of the line system and cabling loom and they run it in for you, then put it into their system. How do you think it would sound?  

 

If you say ‘the same’ then I would conclude that you are really not experienced in high-end hi-fi and we needn’t really bother taking this further. That cable may or may not sound better because that depends on what is already in the system. What you can say with some certainty is that high purity cable, really well screened and spec’d exactly for the job will sound great. Less grainy, less bleached or cloudy, purer in tone and with an extra layer of information that you haven’t heard before . With a lower noise floor you’ll hear a lot more detail and ambience and instruments will take on a more 3 dimensional aspect, thanks to the extra fine detail. hhhmmmm. Its hard to imagine more music....would my imagination be that skilled that it can add musical detail, greater venue ambience and yet smoother tone while perfectly preserving the musics’ verve and integrity and make it all sound substantially better and play that every night, the same, hmmmmmmm. That’s quite an imagination. 

Anyway what you would hear if you actually did this is that you have an exceptional cable and while complex and somewhat costly due to better materials, you’d find that your “designed to be a loom” cabling with tightly controlled earth and screening on all links really does kick ass and belongs in the market place where it would support a fair profit. It would also support an unfair profit, so your choice😉

Or you can take the dead boring, ‘makes no difference’ approach and pass up on all the exciting engineering opportunities. 

This stuff is real, it exists, and as an engineer it can be under your control, but first you’ll need to prove it to yourself. I suggest you organise a visit with someone having a top class installation. Not a dealer....their systems are always in a state of flux and can get quite unbalanced at times. Rather someone whose spent time and money to acquire some top performing electronics, refined Networking and a dedicated well treated room.  When you’ve heard that, I’m fairly sure you’ll realise how far this sound quality thing has to go. Its been progressing steadily and is showing no sign of slowing down.  Essentially the improvements come from further refinements in gear, cables, furniture (vibration control), mains power, network power supplies, cabling and topography. 

All those things ALL will have a substantial impact on how a really good and revealing system will sound. When all the above have been optimised I can promise you some real sonic fireworks from standard 16 bit recordings (some may be more, I don't actually check) 

Long message...I enjoy writing 🙂

[Blackmorec]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

Then perhaps you should stop making such grand pronouncements about it.

Oh I don’t make grand pronouncements....i just sit and plonk away in idle moments.  Regarding your point, how can I make pronouncements about electronics when I actually know very little about it?  I know more about acoustics and a lot more about hi-fi.  45 years worth. And what I’ve found in that 45 years is that pretty much all this s11it matters. Interconnect and power cables, power, network power, DC cables, Vibration Control...assuming you care about and wish to achieve the very best quality sound.  If you think you get great sound by taking a few average components and plugging them together with some just enough cables, you’ve got a major surprise in store someday. 😉

And Just to point out, one of the main improvements I talked about was metallurgical, not electronic.   

[Blackmorec]

2 hours ago, marce said:

Ah but you believe cables can act as DSP's.

 

It increases by a factor of 10 every post.

 

Same with audio, only simpler....

 

What a load of rubbish.

 

A what.... A drain wire is to reduce the resistance for crappy foil shield cables, Drain wires actually increase some rf pick up.

 

Been there done that, I was an audiophile when we had to meet up, pre internet days.....

`No, I believe that cables can prevent noise entering a system and that the removal of noise, especially very damaging HF noise is what brings the improvements. That and high purity conductors. 

 

The numbers may increase, because they’re probably still understated....there are a lot of companies around the World making a very good living satisfying the needs of audiophiles, so they have plenty of customers. 

 

Re drain wires.....I’ll take your word for it. However some of the better sounding cables use drain wires so I assume they’re properly designed and tested and don’t increase rf. There are a lot of very successful techniques that require some skill to implement and don’t sound good if they’re not. Its why we need GOOD engineers who can hear the difference. 

 

Been there, done that, and remained in the same place ever since. If my hi-fi sounded like it did before Internet I would also not believe in all this mumbo jumbo. But it doesn’t. Its moved on by leaps and bounds and sounds orders of magnitude better, thanks to a lot of the ‘mumbo jumbo’ devices and strategies you’re in denial about. 

[Blackmorec]

22 hours ago, marce said:

It is a magical world, where Maxwell and Tesla are great fiction writers...

Of course it worry's me after all these years that plugging a cable into any audio interface is a gamble, not knowing what is in there lurking... Why the other day I plugged in an RCA cable and got a analogue signal out or my pre-amp left channel output... I was happily surprised and suspect that if I plug in the RH channel I may be rewarded with yet another analogue signal. Then there is the motor interface at the arse end of my power amp, being a voltage amp, I think there may be a low impedance output, for supplying the time varying voltage to drive some linear electric motors I have in these fancy cabinets.

Time for bed said Zebaedee....

 

So you plug in the LH RCA and get signal, thus encouraged you plug in the right and hey presto sound from both speakers. Job done. Happy days!

 

You know how you wrote about how therapeutic playing music is? How on the bad days listening to music is not good, while playing music is? 

Well I can tell you that when your hi-if is really cookin’ it has the ability to grab your attention and lift you up, even on the bad days. When a system is vaguely irritating it will never sound good when you’re not feeling great. But when the music is pure and unadulterated, that’s different....the music can be magical. 

 

Have you ever been ‘not in the mood’ but gone to the concert anyway, only to find your mood improving dramatically with the music?  Hi-fi systems have exactly this ability, but not if they are in any way irritating....because that’s what you’ll Pick up and focus on.  

 

Are you the guy who wrote the piece about the bass guitar? If you are then you’re clearly a music lover like me. If so then the only thing we disagree about is that you can tune hi-fis to rid them of all a-musical characteristics and anomalies