HQPlayer4 EC modulator tips and techniques

[k6davis]

1 minute ago, elan120 said:

Interesting configuration.  Do you run endpoint in your setup, such as HQPlayer Server >> Roon Server >> Endpoint?

 

Yes. It's Roon Server >> HQP Server >> (Celeron) NUC with HQP OS as NAA >> ISO Regen with Uptone LPS 1.2 Power Supply >> DAC

 

The goal being to enable each component to be optimized for and focus on a single thing. And also to be able to spend more money where it counts and less where it doesn't. 

[k6davis]

3 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

i7-9700K is 95W TDP. There is a 110W TDP Streacom fanless case available.

 

The key is assembling it right but should work... there's margin above the 95W there...

 

Having said that, I will go with big Noctua fan I think, copy Jussi.

 

95W is a paper spec. It's analogous to miles per gallon ratings for cars. The chip will run at 95W in the best case scenario - as long as you don't push it. The chip will not run at 95W when playing EC.

 

Here are the details: 
 

Quote

By Intel’s own definitions, the TDP is an indicator of the cooling performance required for a processor to maintain its base frequency. In this case, if a user can only cool 95W, they can expect to realistically get only 3.6 GHz on a shiny new Core i9-9900K. That magic TDP value does not take into account any turbo values, even if the all-core turbo (such as 4.7 GHz in this case) is way above that 95W rating.

 

Quote

Focusing on the new Intel CPUs we have tested, both of them go beyond the TDP value, but do not hit PL2. At this level, the CPU is running all cores and threads at the all-core turbo frequency. Both 168.48W for the i9-9900K and 124.27W for the i7=9700K is far and above that ‘TDP’ rating noted above.

 

[k6davis]

37 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Do you think Roon Server can run on your HQP Server without impacting performance, with EC DSD256 ext2

 

I think it would work. Roon doesn't usually require a lot from the CPU when it's not doing any upsampling, except for when it's doing library analysis. But it can really be a disc and memory hog sometimes.

 

I like having them separated. The Roon server can be a much less powerful machine with more RAM and the HQP Server needs to be very powerful, but it only needs 8GB of RAM at most. That way, they don't ever get in each other's way.

 

Of course, you can build a single server and see how it all goes. It expect it will work (with EC) but the only way to know is to find out.

[k6davis]

20 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

The Airtop3 industrial fanless i9-9900K I linked earlier in this thread has a case good for 300W....

 

Quite a lot of margin there.

 

300W?!?

 

That is definitely what they say. I'd believe it after I see it. But if it works, then I'd look into it at some point. Maybe I could find out what I'm missing with passive cooling. 

[k6davis]

13 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

They've been building industrial PC's for a long while...

 

For warm environmental conditions too.

I did some spot reading about them and the product. I understand that they have a good reputation.

 

Still, I'd have to see it to run an i7-9700K let alone a i9-9900K full blast, continuously, with passive cooling in that tiny case before I believed it.

 

 

[k6davis]

4 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

I think they offer a trial period. Maybe drop them a note about the terms and conditions ?

 

And if that case is good for 5 GHz turbo speed high CPU utilisation continuously for hours?

 

I'm not in the market. I'm overjoyed with the sound I'm getting after my $400-ish investment. 

 

If anyone else can report that it really does all they say it does, or that they've found a passively cooled HQP EC solution, I might consider giving it a try at some point. I'd be curious to see if I could hear a difference. But I'm happy where I am.

[k6davis]

43 minutes ago, randytsuch said:

$400 is a really good price, I'm in the process of buying parts to build a new PC for this and I paid almost $350 just for the 9700k.

 

My total looks to be just under $1000, but I could have gone somewhat cheaper.  And this doesn't include cost of an OS, planning to use Ubuntu or pick up a cheaper windows license.

I want a machine that I can overclock if I need to, otherwise could have saved maybe $100.

This total doesn't include a graphics cards, using the 9700k graphics for now.  Also no monitor, mouse, kb. Just the real basics to make a PC.  Also no storage HDD, only a m.2 sdd for the OS and some local storage.

 

My low price is primarily based on the fact that I already had an HQP server. It was AMD Ryzen 2700x based and I couldn't get it past EC DSD128. But EC DSD128 sounded so good that I really wanted to upgrade. I wasn't planning on buying anything, so I sought to do it inexpensively. All I needed to buy was the CPU, a motherboard and a new (Intel compatible) cooler. If you have to build the entire computer from scratch, it'll cost more, but even then, there are deals to be had.

 

I already had an SSD, RAM, a Windows license and Ubuntu is free, of course. I run all of my servers with no monitor and no mouse or keyboard once they're set up. I can remote in to them all to make small changes or attach a keyboard and monitor if necessary for additional setup or backup. A video card isn't necessary for EC DSD256 with poly-sinc-ext2. The i7-9700K runs EC very well without overclocking and it'll never be capable of EC DSD512, so I don't foresee myself overclocking it. I did get a higher end motherboard for pride of ownership, but I doubt it's really necessary.

 

If you are lucky enough to live near a Micro Center store like I am, they have killer deals.

 

Of course, you can spend more but I wanted to communicate that it doesn't have to be difficult or expensive to upgrade for EC DSD256.

[k6davis]

6 minutes ago, rando said:

Sounds like you broke through to 512 at ASDM7EC.  Quite the accomplishment!

 

No one has broken through to EC DSD512. @StreamFidelity didn't say that he has. There is no computer chip fast enough for that yet. 

[k6davis]

2 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Jussi has said minimum 8 GHz running speed.

 

This is very old. I imagine this record has been broken. I don't want to know any prices though

 

 

Hmm... I'm not sure what to make of that. That was 5 years ago, yet commercially available CPUs are still nowhere near that fast.

 

EC DSD512 is a mirage. One day it won't be, but that day is not here.

[k6davis]

40 minutes ago, Rune said:

8 Ghz will most likely never happen.

 

I get what you're saying. but I wouldn't go quite that far. I still have a 1986 Macintosh Plus that had the (then) shockingly huge 1 MB of RAM and an (OMG) 8 Mhz processor (!!!), by Motorola. It cost $2,599 (equivalent to $5,940 in 2018 dollars). It was a very functional device back then. 😊 

 

Based on what is known now, 8 GHz is impossible, but someday, someone might think of, or stumble upon, an entirely different way of doing things. What was once unimaginable, becomes commonplace.

 

It's definitely not something to wait for though.

[k6davis]

I would avoid the i9-9900K. The i7-9700K is the best chip out there right now for HQP.

 

The i7-9700K is cheaper, runs much cooler and runs every single modulator in HQP with ease, with every file to ASDM7EC x DSD256 x48 or non-EC DSD512 x 48, with poly-sinc-ext2, without a GPU. I would think the lower temperature would be especially important to those of you who prefer passive cooling.

 

Is there an HQP use case where the i9-9900K is better than the i7-9700K?

[k6davis]

 

24 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

While waiting for the guru @Miskato see your question:

 

Could the extra threads and extra cache of the 9900K help, for example for someone running Roon on the same machine?

 

While extra cache may not help with just EC modulators, I’ve seen Miska mention more cache can help HQP performance.

 

I wouldn't run Roon on the HQP machine. I didn't do that before EC and I definitely wouldn't now. I expect it would work on either of the two CPUs, but prefer several machines, with each one doing as few things as possible, preferably with an optimized, no GUI OS (Windows Server, Linux Server or HQP OS). A powerful HQP server, a modestly powered Roon server, and a super lightweight NAA. It doesn't have to cost a lot - lower powered computers are really cheap now and they can be really small. It's worth it to me to have an optimized system.

 

18 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Even the 110W TDP fanless Streacom DB4  case may not be suitable for 9700K.

 

So DIY fanless may be off the table for both, for cases available right now.

 

I'm pulling a number out of thin air here but I'd need to see a 140W fanless cass to feel comfortable with running 9700K at turbo speeds in a fanless case. Just to allow for some safety margin.

 

Safest best (for a new build) for turbo speed performance seems to be active cooling. 

 

I've never tried passive cooling, but I'd certainly want the cooler chip (that still runs all of the modulators) if I was running fanless.

 

1 hour ago, ted_b said:

What if I'm running multichannel into an NAA (to an exaSound)?  Will the 9900k be better or will I simply need a GPU to offload/

 

Waiting to hear from @Miska but I would expect that you'd need a GPU with either chip.

[k6davis]

4 hours ago, Miska said:

You need at least as many CPU cores as you have channels. So 9900K is just enough. If you run filters on the CPU it is better to have double the number of cores. So best option is probably 9900K + powerful enough Nvidia GPU.

 

The 9900K and 9700K both have 8 cores.

[k6davis]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

One has HyperThreading and a bit more boost clock. I don't know how much it makes difference in practice, my guesstimate is around 10 - 15%. Typically total number of threads with HQPlayer and the OS is some hundreds at least. If you run Roon on the same machine, it matters much more than if you run HQPlayer OS. Not very straightforward to give a simple rule/figure.

 

Roughly speaking, for HQPlayer most optimal would be number of channels + 2 when using GPU and at least number of channels x2 + 2 without GPU. That's how I picked i7-8086K (for Holo Spring 2). But there are other aspects as well, if you run filters on CPU, amount and speed of cache matters a lot.

 

I installed Roon Core temporarily on my 9700K HQP server to see how it impacted the performance. The CPU utilization is about 3% higher, but other than that, there's no difference. I don't think it sounds as good. I had to turn off my Audiophile Optimizer optimizations to get Roon to run and now the system is doing more multitasking, but it's running perfectly - upsampling PCM 24-192 => ASDM7EC x DSD256 x 48 with poly-sinc-ext2 - with the GPU turned off so the filters are running on the CPU.

 

For stereo rigs, the 9700K has power to spare to run Roon + HQP EC DSD256.

 

 

[k6davis]

46 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Even playing to networked endpoint, NAA?

 

Right, even with the NAA. I haven't quantified whether it was running through the Audiophile Optimizer again or not having Roon running on the same server, but when I went back to my normal configuration, there was an obvious improvement in the sound.

[k6davis]

 

17 hours ago, dminches said:

Is Roon doing much when you are just playing music?  I know it scans for new music periodically but that can be turned off.

 

You would think that it's not doing much, but sometimes there are significant spikes in the disk & CPU usage on my Roon server. 

 

Normally, my servers are optimized (with Windows Server + Audiophile Optimizer or HQP OS) and dedicated (only running 1 app). To perform my test (running both Roon & HQP on the same server), I temporarily lost both benefits. The music definitely sounded better when I went back to my normal configuration.

 

It may be that it was the optimization that made most of the difference, but after making the effort to minimize any unnecessary processes running in the background, I don't want to run a whole additional application to the foreground. My HQP Server is like an appliance. It has no keyboard or monitor attached. It only does one thing and I usually don't have to interact with it.

 

Like the man himself said:

 

23 hours ago, Miska said:

Typically total number of threads with HQPlayer and the OS is some hundreds at least. If you run Roon on the same machine, it matters much more than if you run HQPlayer OS.

[k6davis]

5 hours ago, bodiebill said:

My setup is now with 3 PC's:

(1) Windows Server 2019 which connects to my NAS music library (still unoptimized)

=>

(2) Audiolinux with HQPlayer 4 embedded (still trial)

=>

(3) Audiolinux or Euphony with NAA (also still trial)

 

I also have Audirvana on (1) which sees the HQPe, so wondered: would it be possible to decrease the load on (2) by using Audirvana to upsample to, say, DSD128 or DSD256, to hopefully reduce stuttering playback of DSD256 with ASDM7EC?

Of course I tried, and I have the impression that the stuttering is somewhat less, but it is still there.

Did anyone here try something along those lines? Does it make any sense at all?

 

Distributed Upsampling. 😀 That's clever.

 

It is a significantly lighter load for HQP to upsample from DSD to DSD, so there is some logic to your idea. I suspect it would be easier for the computer if the sample rate given to HQP was lower, like DSD64.

 

If your hardware is capable of EC DSD5EC at DSD128 (a lighter load), that could give you a sense of what the EC "magic" is about. EC still sounds like EC at DSD128 and I actually prefer the sound of DSD5EC (although that is not a majority opinion LOL).

[k6davis]

I'd always assumed that a GPU was mandatory to run the demanding xtr filters - especially combined with the new EC modulators. This recent post from @Ales Prochazka showed me that my assumption was incorrect. 

I've run some additional tests and I'm even more impressed with the i7-9700K than I was before. With no overclocking, no special cooling, no GPU, and even with Roon running simultaneously, it's capable of anything I can throw at it - without any strain at all.

 

My use case is 2 channels, with no convolution.

 

1. Roon + PCM 24-352 => ASDM7EC x DSD256 + poly-sinc-xtr mp/lp  👍
2. Roon + PCM 24-192 => ASDM7EC x DSD256 x 48 + poly-sinc-xtr mp/lp  👍
3. Roon + DSD128 => ASDMEC x DSD256 + poly-sinc-xtr mp/lp  👍

 

This means that with just the i7-9700K, within my use case, I can do everything that's currently possible with HQP. Interestingly, #2 is the heaviest load, most likely due to the need to upsample to x 48. 

I have an inexpensive GPU, but I'm going to sell it. As @Miska has stated, since it is slower than my CPU, my inexpensive GPU was actually holding my system back. Most importantly, I don't need a GPU to get these results.

Miska has said that poly-sinc-ext2 is his favorite filter and it sounds great. So far, I'm really liking poly-sinc-xtr (mp). I'm hearing it for the first time. Either way, the sound is outstanding. EC is a game changer. I'm looking forward to doing more critical listening tomorrow after going back to having Roon on its own server.

 

HQPlayer Desktop 4.1.0.1

Windows Server 2019 + Audiophile Optimizer

Core i7-9700K

ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming ITX Motherboard

Stock BIOS Settings
Cooler Master Hyper 212 RGB Black Edition

Kingston m.2 120GB SSD
8GB of RAM

 

 

[k6davis]

15 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

I agree. For EC modulators, no GPU is required.

 

I don't agree with it. Even if you have not set overcloking in BIOS, you are running overclocking in software: instead of 3.6 GHz it is 4.6 GHz. 😉

 

You are right. I have not manually overclocked the CPU. It runs however fast it needs to run - safely and automatically.

[k6davis]

6 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

Same machine running HQP OS (USB bootable image) works fine with DXD to SDM256, ext2, ASDM7EC?

 

I know you were asking @Ales Prochazka, but I'm answering anyway because I am interested in the topic. 

 

I have had great success with full EC DSD256 on HQP Desktop on both Windows & Linux, and with HQP Embedded on LInux Server. But on the same i7-9700K server, HQP OS stutters with even lighter EC DSD256 settings.

 

On the few computers I've tried lately, HQP OS has not performed as well as the other configurations, although it's very easy to use and it sounds great when used within its limitations. I'm puzzled as to what I could be doing wrong because the OS is already configured. 

 

Has anybody gotten PCM 24-192 => ASDM7EC x DSD256 x 48 working on HQP OS? Looking forward to your results @Ales Prochazka.

[k6davis]

12 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Interesting. It seems it was worth asking the question then.

 

Oh definitely. I would like to run HQP OS, but I haven't been able to get it to perform as well as the other versions when it comes to high rez PCM => ASDM7EC x DSD256 x 48. Even with poly-sinc-ext2 it stutters badly. With the Windows Desktop version, I can run all of that with poly-sinc-xtr (!!!) on the same computer.

 

I've asked @Miska about it and he said that there's no reason why that should be the case. So I would like to know if he or anyone else has had better luck than I have. 

[k6davis]

2 hours ago, Newbie2019 said:

Just like to add my thanks to the contributors on this thread. 

 

Have got ASDM7EC working with poly-sinc xtr mp (yes, the non-2s version) on my I7-9700K at 44.1k to DSD 256. No stuttering so far but CPU temps a bit high, 74 degC.

 

I'm also a bit of a Chord fan (mojo and Qutest). HQP 3.25 user, still on trial with 4.1.0.1 ...

 

Welcome to the thread @Newbie2019 and congrats on getting it working!

 

What kind of cooling are you using for the CPU?

[k6davis]

4 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

I have booted HQPlayer OS directly from USB stick and do not even get 16Bit 44.1kHz with ASDM7EC stutter free to run.

I think Windows 10 Pro is better than many believe. In any case, it seems to have a better grip on the utilization of the cores.

 

Right! Thank you @StreamFidelity.

 

That makes at least 3 users, @StreamFidelity, @Outlaw, and I that have reported that EC is not working well with HQP OS. When you have time, could you please take a look at that @Miska?

[k6davis]

8 minutes ago, emc_1984 said:

I agree HQP with EC works better on Windows OS than Linux.

 

Well, that's not what I'm saying. HQP EC works great for me on Linux Desktop and Linux Server. I only have problems trying to use Jussi's bootable Linux image (HQP OS) with EC.

 

Since Jussi didn't expect that to be the case, hopefully, there might be a solution that is simple for him to implement. 

[k6davis]

1 minute ago, lmitche said:

Which Linux distro do you use?

 

Ubuntu 18.04 for Desktop. 

Ubuntu Server 18.04 for Server, as recommended by Jussi. 

 

Everything works well with both versions.