Understanding the Audiophiles community.

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11 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

LOL!  The problem is that the destination keeps changing, making for one heck of an interesting journey! 

 

 

Is it? To me it’s always the same – to listen to music as unaltered and lifelike as possible.

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10 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

Which is a perfectly valid journey of course. It also has the one of the easier paths. When you happen to like other kinds of music, such as progressive rock or music that is created in the studio, like the Alan Parsons or Pink Floyd stuff, there is no such thing as unaltered or lifelike. It isn't meant to be a recording of a real event. 

 

So other journeys are far more complex and leave a lot of room to the imagination that the simple recordings of concert events just do not allow for. On the other hand, a "purist" view is really fun to take when listening to old albums. (50 years +.)  

 

No matter which type of music you like to listen to, the recordings are already "made" with the type of sound the artist like it to have (unaltered, garage, etc). With a system that is made to reproduce the sound as unaltered and lifelike as possible you actually get closest to what the artist wanted it to sound like. That includes everything from bombastic DUB and industrial to classic and everything between.  

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9 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

It's extremely simple for me - when enough has been done to eradicate disturbing anomalies in the sound, giveaways to the brain that the playback is "fake", then the presentation switches to a dramatically higher level of realism - the illusion of a live performance is rock solid.

 

99.999% of rigs, irrespective of cost, are miles from this zone - the 'fun' is coaxing the setup to achieve this level ... it's a win-win, all the way ... .

 

To get an unaltered and lifelike sound is not easy and no system can fool me to believe that it is a live event I listen to. Some can get much closer than others, but never 100%. It is of course not only because of the audio system. The recordings studios, mics etc imposes its own sound as well.

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14 hours ago, STC said:

 

This is entirely a different topic. In your post .  you said it is impossible for a system to play all the different genres equally well and then you cited a 5.1 system as opposed to standard s.0 system that audiophiles are familiar with. Besides @Kal Rubinson and myself, no other audiophiles in this forum agree that a multi channel system is far more realistic than a stereo.

 

Going back to your post, I disagree that those 5.1 multi channel couldn't reproduce the magic of vocal. ESL speakers are very good at reproducing vocals. It doesn't make sense to me as I too use ESL speakers. Nor for someone who uses all ESL speakers even for the ambiance to play simple vocal stereo.

 

Unfortunately, the message that no one system could reproduce all the different genres accurately will continue in the audiophile world due to many ill informed opinions. 

 

Well not much music I listen to is actually recorded in 5.1. Stereo, mono and multi-channel system all have their pros and cons. My experience is that many people have big troubles to properly set up a stereo system in their homes. Many sits to close to the back wall, has a lots of hard surfaces, speakers placed too close to corners and side wall, no bass traps, use inappropriate acoustic treatment for their room etc. A correctly setup mid-fi stereo system in a properly furnished room often beats a high end system that isn’t correctly setup IMO, no matter if it’s a stereo or 5.1. 

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9 hours ago, STC said:

 

That is pretty common. Most of do not have a dedicated room or proper treatment as good sound is not only from the speakers but also from the room. Unfortunately, it is hard to have one rule for all. If you take Harbeth speakers into this discussion, it was designed to be played in a typical room without any treatment. Also, Alan Shaw believes in the treble and bass knobs for the amplifier as there were part and parcel of the equation to produce good sound. 

 

However, when you talk about other high end speakers they usually will sound better with room treatment. Then again some speaker designer make their speakers to sound good without treatment as they were meant to be part of the décor of the space they occupy. 

 

It s hard to say some are doing it wrong without knowing the overall room acoustics. For some their system will sound better when they sit close to the rear wall for other rooms it may not work even with the same type of speakers.

 

Our loudspeakers interact with the acoustics of the room in which they are used, therefore optimizing their positions in the room and the acoustics of the room pays off big time. Often inexpensive audio systems, optimally set up, outperform more expensive audio systems. Even though that “we” know how important the interaction of the speakers with the room is it is amazing how often many audiophile overlook it and instead spend more and more money on speakers, electronics and cables without paying proper attention to the listening environment. The room dictates what we hear. The treatment doesn’t have to be exotic and we can do a lot with regular furnisher, books, LPs and depending on the system and room maybe some bass traps, acoustic diffuser or at least something that kill early reflections.

 

Some general rules are more or less always true and are not depending on which speakers you have, while other rules depends on the speakers. IME the speaker’s position from the side and back wall depends on the speakers, as does the degree of toeing in speakers. To sit to close to the back wall OTOH seems to be totally independent on the type of speaker used. To minimize early reflections from roof and sidewalls is another.

 

To overdamp the room (common) with a lot of fluffy material that kill the upper mids and treble is as bad, if not worse, than a lot of hard surfaces.

 

Some basics:

http://www.cardas.com/roomsetup.pdf

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/acoustic-treatment-101/

 

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16 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Thanks for the Cardas link. I used them for my initial room design together with Ethan Winer mode calculator. 

 

I paid great attention to the room design so that it is acoustically accurate and wanted a room RT60 of 0.28s as in the BBC studio. 

 

The dimension was based on golden ratio and another mini room in the room of another room with the same golden ratio. Two brick walls separated by 1 foot gap. The inner layer was filled with Rockwool. Even the ceiling was damped. The only place that was not damped is the floor. Not even a carpet. 

 

The result of 0.28s RT was a dead room. Musically it wasn’t engaging although it was accurate and crystal clear. Since all the absorbers were built in, i had no choice but to add reflected over them to bring the RT to around 0.43s. I had use aluminum foil and whatever things that could help to sustain the reverb. 

 

All these experiment was done when I was using Harbeth Super 5. So the room treatment varied a accordingly when I migrate to artificial reverbs.  Another friend attempted the same overdamping like mine and that sound turned out to be more lively than mine but those were the big Wilson speakers. 

 

Cutting the long story short, if I were to do the room again, I would opt for the basic design of LEDE and strategically place absorbers and diffusers. Room acoustics is more of an art than science. For most consumers a proper speaker size will solve most of the acoustic problems. 

 

 

 

This is the type of experience knowledge and practice that I think can help other audiophiles.

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I got six and can’t say that am surprised by that, after all I believe in the audiophile doctrine that every improvements matters for the final SQ, even the minor ones. If all improvement is also good value is another thing. To buy very expensive High End gear without paying close attention as well to placement, good gear matching and acoustics can be kind of counterproductive IMO.

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2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Guys - Please get back on the rails. Nobody wants to read two guys bickering back and fourth. We come here to escape the real world that causes headaches.

 

People are reporting this thread for the nonsense and want it to come back around to being informative.  

 

Well to each their own I guess. I don’t personally come here to escape the real world – it’s to read and discuss audio related sh*t. To escape the real world I listen to some good music 😁

 

I agree about the bickering though 😉.

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I don’t believe most artists are involved in the stereo details and is more engaged in which type of “sound” their music should have.