Atlona AT-HD577 Audio De-embedder: Experiences with Sony BDP-S370 and Samsung PS50C550 HDMI endpoint

[pacwin]

Okay,

 

My main interest is digital capture of stereo SACD data in order to store it on the NAS for computer server playback. Before investing further I want to relay where I am at for now and seek further elaboration of those who are successfully de-embedding and storing DSD converted PCM.

 

My test device is the Sony BDP-S370 and my HDMI destination is a PS50C550 plasma TV coz thats all Ive got handy.

 

I am capturing the audio using an M-Audio Audiophile 192 PCI card in a Windows PC. Experience so far shows a failure to record any digital data when SACD data is being played back with either the Samsung plasma on or its EDID captured with the Atlona. The M-Audio card can be set for external clock locking and the card does lock on to an 88.2kHz clock from the Atlona de-embedder but there is no data sent from the coaxial out on the Atlona. As far as I can tell the M-Audio card can accept a wide range of clocks and bit depths so I doubt its a limitation of the recording card. It also understands SCMS copying and none of that seems to make a difference.

 

Before I invest in a higher level Sony BBP I want to understand the significance of the device that the Altona is connected to either realtime or stored EDID. If the destination device can't accept certain bit rates formats and bit depths then it seems reasonable that the Atlona is at the mercy of whatever the HDMI emndpoint is capable of.

 

In short it seems to me that in order to make this SACD playback capture work, that the destination HDMI endpoint needs to be capable of accepting 88.2/24, 176.4.24 etc. Given that my HDMI endpoint is a television set with $5.00 speakers that would seem to be the impediment to unlocking the PCM Data using the Atlona?

 

Do those people who are playing back or recording PCM data from the Atlona de-embedders in fact have them plugged into HDMI receivers i.e: HDMI Player->Atlona->HDMI Receiver->HDMI Display.

 

I havent tried to capture the digital out from the Samsung display but i suspect its 48k/16 data. This corelates with output from a 192/24 Blu Ray disc using the Atlona which I can capture with the M-Audio card.

 

The Samsung display has Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby Pulse, and something called DTS 2.0 + Digital Out. None of that DSP gobbledy gook is likely to come close to the DSD->PCM conversion requirements nor is it necessarily recordable by the M-Audio card.

 

So in short do I need an HDMI receiver connected to the Atlona?. Assume that if I proceed it will be with the Sony BDP-S770.

 

If I need an HDMI receiver (or at least its EDID) whats the least I can get away with since this is just a means to an end to get it on to the server. Is capturing the EDID from a suitable reciver going to be enough.

 

I also did not find significant differences between input A (HDMI-CEC) or B on the Atlona nor did turning of HDMI-CEC handshaking on the Player and /or the Display seem to make any difference but interested in others experiences. My hunch is that I need a competent receiver in the chain in order to access the PCM stream. Thoughts?

 

[benjamiah]

Hi pac win

 

I have a audio research dac 8 (will receive 176 192)

A atlona 577

Sony bdp s770

Integra receiver 80.1

 

The audio research would register getting a 176 signal from sacd when receiving optical from the 577' but no sound. I had connected to a projector

 

I then hooked up to the integra instead of the projector. Monitor out of the atlona

Bingo!!, the holy grail, everything i through at it would work perfect sacd at 176 ,

 

Then, i swapped out a sacd, maybe switched something off, and back to no sound. I cant seem to repeat the setup to get the sound out, with integer or not. The must be a very specific routine, which i can't for the life of me replicate ,,,,,grrrrr

 

Will let you know when if i do. This is like witchcraft...let me know how you go. It is possible, just not quite solved yet. By the way, sacd to the dac 8 at 176 sounded unbelievable, i played 5 sacd back to back no issue. Wonderful

 

 

 

[ted_b]

to make sure a handshake occurs. Its processing power, wattage or color is irrelevant. A simple HDMI display works fine. Turn it on.

 

Make sure the player's SACD menu is set to PCM, not DSD.

 

Make sure, in some players like Oppo, that the video is 720P or greater (usually not an issue).

 

Make sure you can get audio to your system before you try and record anything; we can't troubleshoot too many variables. Let's just get it working normally (with sound); then we can tackle the recording end (I have little de-embedder recording experience there). I began this de-embedder idea, but have only used the Atlona 570 and look alikes, not the 577. I would leave all HDMI switches in their default mode.

 

Make sure your HDMI cables are 1.3 capable (some early HDMI cables have issues here, as do 50 ft ones).

 

Whenever you have no sound and everything else powered on, switch off and on the backend HDMI display and/or processor to re-establish the handshake.

 

Let us know what happens....

 

[pacwin]

The problem may well be the HDMI cables. These are not premium cables and they are early iterations of the standard. I'll replace them with current cables and see how I go. Thanks for the reassurance that it can work.

 

The EDID of the HDMI display still seems to be important, at least logically one would think.

 

The Audio part of the E-EDID is documented here:

 

http://www.ent.eet-china.com/PDF/2007MAR/DTCOL_2007MAR26_INFDT_AN_01.pdf?SOURCES=DOWNLOAD

 

See pgs, 65-70

 

 

 

 

[pacwin]

It is now working but not yet recording. The Sony blu ray players have a setting called Downmix under Audio Settings. By default this is set to Surround. This needs to be set to "Stereo" otherwise as the manual says "Outputs audio signals with surround effects" which means Dolby Digital and DTS Neo wraopped signals even when playing DSD layer of an SACD. Weird I know. Turn this off and the de-embedder spits out PCM.

 

However the Atlona HD-577 appears to generate 176.4 PCM from the TOSLINK optical out but only half this rate from the Coaxial out.This is true irrespective of kind of media in the player. This is presumably a software flaw.

 

This whole business is a fiddle without an HDMI receiver to help monitor the process. A receiver can monitor what is going over HDMI as well as take the digital out from the de-embedder and tell you what is going on.

 

So as of now I can record 88.2 PCM from the coaxial out of the Atlona, I can receive 176.4 into an HDMI receiver over TOSLINK. This latest testing was done with the Sony S770 player. My guess is that the S370 also can be used for deembedding at 176.4 PCM. I have not actually tested this but will attempt it at a later point.

 

Next move is to find a sound card that can record over TOSLINK. Im waiting for the soon to be released Auzentech Meridian G2 card which has TOSLINK 192/24 input (hoping that it can grok 176.4). These are similar architecture to the Asus Xonar Essence cards.

 

Another useful thing I did was to get a fix on the EDID of the display and the receiver connected to a desktop/laptop with an HDMI/DVI/Displayport video connection. Poke this into the HDMI input of the display or the receiver and read the contents of the EDID using any of several software tools. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_display_identification_data and http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm ) This is near enough to infalibility about what your gear can (or not) do.

 

Beyond this I can see many long evenings of listening and recording, cutting and pasting, tagging and prissing and preening with somewhere between 400-500 SACD's to process.

 

 

[ted_b]

listen to the stereo layer of the SACD (in which downmix is a moot point). There can not be more than a handful (less than 1%), if that, of SACD's that are multichannel only (where downmix would be an issue).

 

[Synfreak]

I would strongly recommend a RME card or interface!

Because of the quality of these cards and because these include their "DigiCheck" software for some analysing features, which may be really helpfull!

 

If you are on a budget try to get a ESI Juli@ card.

 

 

Harald

 

[djmckaytx]

 

So as of now I can record 88.2 PCM from the coaxial out of the Atlona, I can receive 176.4 into an HDMI receiver over TOSLINK. This latest testing was done with the Sony S770 player.

 

Pacwin, I also have a Sony S770. I'm getting completely different results. My DAC sees the 176.4 bitrate over co-ax and no signal at all over Toslink.

 

Could you tell me what the settings on your S770 are and what version of the firmware your S770 is using? Thanks.

 

[pacwin]

 

 

I can update this to say that I am now able to digitally record/capture from coax from the Atlona box @176.4 through M-Audio 192 card. I'm not recording from Toslink but I can see this register on input into an Onkyo receiver that digitally reports sample rate when Toslink output from Altona is sent to it. Im now several hundred albums into my SACD collection capture so its working well. The S770 firmware is M04.R.735

 

In terms of the sample rate setting for the Atlona coax it was not reliable relying on the clock in the Altona. I had to switch the setting on the Audiophile 192 card software to set the clocking to the card's internal clock. Doing that allowed 176.4 synching.

 

My settings are just Audio - PCM, DSD out off, Downmix stereo, Super Audio Cd layer, Super Audio Playback DSD 2CH. Hope that helps.

 

[jamesg11]

Pacwin, I've got the same settingsas you in the sony bdp-s370, but I'm still not getting past having a 176.4 display on the dac - & no sound out. I'm having no problems with a cambridge audio 650bd (same chipset as oppo) spinning sacds into the atlona 577 & getting 88.2 on dac &, crucially, through amps. My dac does 176 & 192 with other hires. I picked up the sony specifically to double the resolution on offer with sacds. Any suggestions, with your experience of this? Thanks.

 

[jacobacci]

Hi jamesg11,

I am also having difficulties with a sony BDP-S770 and the Atlona 577. I think it could be due to fact that the Sony has HDMI 1.4a and the Atlona is only HDMI 1.3 capable. Backward compatibility is a difficult thing.

I haven't found a solution yet either.

 

 

[pacwin]

Not really. Its a black art. My emphasis was on capturing the digital stream rather than using it for playback from disc. There is definitely some short fall on the clocking side of the Atlona. As I said this worked with the M-Audio card. However some DACS work and some don't. I get unreliable or no satisfaction using a Zhaolu D3 DAC being fed by the Atlona but a Musical Fidelity X-DAC works fine!!. AFAIK these DACS have a similar DAC architecture.

 

Both DAC's in other circumstances process 176.4/24 reliably from USB sound cards and such like (I use a Musiland Xilinx based USB Adapter to get Data to the DAC from the music server). The only other suggestion I can make is to try optical connections or an optical to coaxial converter in the middle. I found that the optical connection is probably the better of the two on the Atlona. The coaxial connecter on the Atlona is also flimsily mounted, make sure its not cracked or come adrft from the PCB.

 

TO help troubleshoot this you need some other DAC/Receiver/Sound card with Digital input to confirm that there is data crossing the wire

 

[pacwin]

 

No I dont think its anything to do with the HDMI revisions they are alll backward compatible. It is important to have a properly certified 1.3 or better cable(s) in and out of the Atlona when setting up the connection and storing the HDMI receiver parameters using the dipswitches. To set mine up I had to employ an HDMI 192/24 capable receiver as the HDMI endpoint. If necessary borrow one from a mate but yours should be more than adequate. Once those settings are stored you can dispense with the receiver and or monitor. Using a passive screen/ consumer TV or computer monitor is not enough. These devices cannot process 176/24 data and the BDP-XXX refuses to send it after doing the HDMI interrogation/handshake.

 

I have used the BDP-S770 to digitise some 500 SACD's using the Atlona so I know it works. However it is finickety. See my suggestions above also.

 

Its also useful to interrogate your receiver/HDMI endpoint to get the EDID Data (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEA-861#CEA-861-E) using a tool like Monitor Asset Manager (http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm). You will need a PC (dual monitor) preferably a laptop with an HDMI connection, poke that into the receiver and see what comes back in the EDID. Its the EDID thats stored using the dipswitches and getting this right is the first hurdle.

 

[joelha]

Pacwin,

 

I would sure appreciate step-by-step instructions on how to do this.

 

Getting the digital stream off of my SACD's has been one of my audio holy grails.

 

Thanks in advance for the help you can offer.

 

Joel

 

[ted_b]

this than me at this point. I am going to make sure the Audio Circle folks know about this post cuz many are having Sony-to-Monoprice 176k issues (DAC sees it but no sound). I'm still doing the simpler Atlona 570-Oppo thing that started this craze in the first place (I'll take credit when it works, and not when it doesn't ).

Ted

 

[jacobacci]

Thanks a lot pacwin. Great information, these links are really helpful.

 

 

[jamesg11]

Thanks pacwin - I'm keen to eventually record sacd to harddrive etc. & this info is great stuff. Just one query with the suggested need to set up the edid with a 24/192 capable receiver: I'm currently having no problem getting 24/88.2 with my Cambridge Audio 650BD (same media chipset as Oppo), into dac with sound etc, just using my tv as hdmi endpoint. Shouldn't I expect the above issue to happen here as well - not just with Sony BDP370 (got it to get 24/176.4)?

 

Rudi, are you able to get 24/88.2 with your Oppo, through Atlona?

 

I'm certainly going to try your receiver suggestion, somehow (don't really want to buy one, & I've found Atlona not reliably stable with edid - have to reset it occasionally).

 

[jacobacci]

Hi jamesg11

My Oppo 80 works without any problems (at 88.2k), only the Sony is making difficulties (which of course I got in order to do 176.4k). If I poll the Onkyo's EDID using MonInfo, it correctly reports back all the bitrates incl. 176.4k and all the bitdepths incl. 24.

 

 

[Brand B]

Wow, I guess I got lucky. I ripped a few SACDs this weekend from my PS3 using the monoprice box into my macbook optical input with Audacity, and had almost no issues at all, everything worked fine out of the gate with one small exception.

 

Beginning recording prior to starting PS3 playback would cause the app to quit, but starting recording afterwards worked fine. So I just started the disk, started recording, then hit chapter jump back to the beginning while recording. Then when editing the recorded disk into tracks, I just trimmed off the false start as there was a small period of silence in between.

 

I put the box inline between my PS3 and my Onkyo surround preamp, and set the PS3 to output 96KHz 2 channel (My computer playback is presently limited to 96).

 

I did use a beefier HDMI cable as monoprice says this is likely required on the page for the box.

 

All went smoothly after I got the routine down.